whats so bad about MJ and the romance?

[Majik1387]

It isn't hyperbolic at all.
She literally can't be happy without a man, that's where the stereotype gets into the negative and strays from the independent part.

The answer isn't simply no.

I don't feel comic MJ hides it. She didn't know Peter felt that strongly to the point of proposal, and I believe that based on her reaction to the proposal there. That's not hiding it, he was just her current boyfriend at that time. Peter most likely got too attached too fast and tried to get more serious too soon.

 

[The Joker]

It isn't hyperbolic at all.

Yes it is. That's coming from someone who is not even a big fan of her character, mainly because of 3.

She literally can't be happy without a man, that's where the stereotype gets into the negative and strays from the independent part.

How can it stray from the independent part when she is already independent with or without a man? The fact that she wants to be with someone doesn't make it a stereotype. A stereotype would be if it was all she wanted. Nothing else. If it was her whole entire character.

The answer isn't simply no.

Yeah it is. Peter's not an idiot. MJ was not his first or even second serious girlfriend.

I don't feel comic MJ hides it. She didn't know Peter felt that strongly to the point of proposal, and I believe that based on her reaction to the proposal there. That's not hiding it, he was just her current boyfriend at that time. Peter most likely got too attached too fast and tried to get more serious too soon.

You obviously have not read the comics of that period. That is not the reason why, as she confesses later she rejected him because of her inability to commit, her own troubled background etc.

 

[sl500jazz]

Fair enough.
But she does hide it, until the guy tries to get serious. Or do you think Peter would have proposed in the first place, let alone even dated her if he knew it wasn't going to go anywhere?

Rhetorical question. We know the answer is no.

How did she hide it? She was like that from day one. That's why Peter dated Gwen over MJ. He thought that MJ was all about having a good time and that she could never settle down or be serious. Eventually, he began to realize that there was more to MJ than meets the eye, but it took her a long while before she was able to take those barriers down.

The whole dating around thing was part of MJ's facade. It's a defense mechanism. When Peter got too close she pushed him away. She loved him, but was emotionally scarred by her childhood and was afraid of getting hurt again.

She hid her insecurities, but she NEVER hid the fact that she wasn't "marriage material".

 

[The Joker]

How did she hide it? She was like that from day one. That's why Peter dated Gwen over MJ. He thought that MJ was all about having a good time and that she could never settle down or be serious. Eventually, he began to realize that there was more to MJ than meets the eye, but it took her a long while before she was able to take those barriers down.

I'm well aware of Peter's initial opinion of her back when they first met. That changed after Gwen died, which was when they started dating;

The whole dating around thing was part of MJ's facade. It's a defense mechanism. When Peter got too close she pushed him away. She loved him, but was emotionally scarred by her childhood and was afraid of getting hurt again.

I know that. That's what I've been saying. MJ strung him along and then rejected him because of her troubled past and fear to commit. She confessed that later. But all this was something Peter never knew because she hid it from him. This is not her being honest with Peter:

It's telling Betty when she should have been telling Peter this. Dishonest MJ. Like...oooohh I don't know....not telling Peter she got fired from her play but telling Harry instead. It's not just Peter. Even Aunt May thought she was the one for Peter. She would never have supported their relationship if she felt MJ was a flighty party girl man hopper. She even pushed MJ to go after Peter when the Gwen clone showed up;

 

[sl500jazz]

I'm well aware of Peter's initial opinion of her back when they first met. That changed after Gwen died, which was when they started dating;

I know that. That's what I've been saying. MJ strung him along and then rejected him because of her troubled past and fear to commit. She confessed that later. But all this was something Peter never knew because she hid it from him. This is not her being honest with Peter:

Sorry, but she never 'strung' him along. If Gwen had rejected his proposal, I could see your point, but despite what Peter may have felt or thought at the time, MJ NEVER hid the fact that she wasn't "marriage material".

I'm failing to understand why it's MJ's fault when Peter clearly proposed to her way too soon. They dated for a while, but they hadn't even shared each other's deepest secrets. For christ's sake, he hadn't even told her that he was Spider-man, which she was well aware of. It was foolish of him for proposing, not her for rejecting

It's telling Betty when she should have been telling Peter this. Dishonest MJ. Like...oooohh I don't know....not telling Peter she got fired from her play but telling Harry instead. It's not just Peter. Even Aunt May thought she was the one for Peter. She would never have supported their relationship if she felt MJ was a flighty party girl man hopper. She even pushed MJ to go after Peter when the Gwen clone showed up;

I'd like to think that Aunt May knew about MJ's insecurities and saw past the facade. Remember, she was very close friends with MJ's "surrogate mother" Anna Watson.

 

[The Joker]

Sorry, but she never 'strung' him along.

Yes she did.

If Gwen had rejected his proposal, I could see your point, but despite what Peter may have felt or thought at the time, MJ NEVER hid the fact that she wasn't "marriage material".

I'm failing to understand why it's MJ's fault when Peter clearly proposed to her way too soon. They dated for a while, but they hadn't even shared each other's deepest secrets. For christ's sake, he hadn't even told her that he was Spider-man, which she was well aware of. It was foolish of him for proposing, not her for rejecting

Hang on a second, if Gwen rejected his proposal that would be wrong, even though she didn't know he was Spider-Man either, but it's ok for MJ to do it for the exact same reason?

I don't deny Peter's proposal was too soon because they both had not opened to each other completely, and I would say the same if he proposed to Gwen without telling her either. But that's not the point. The point is Peter had been under the illusion by her that their relationship was serious enough, that she was committed to him, that marriage was on the cards. Their relationship was the kind that could lead to this.

Not that he was with someone who was wanting to go out and pick up the whole world of guys that are out there.

I'd like to think that Aunt May knew about MJ's insecurities and saw past the facade. Remember, she was very close friends with MJ's "surrogate mother" Anna Watson.

Yeah maybe she did. But that's not the point. Aunt May, like Peter, thought MJ was the one for him. It wasn't just Peter who was believing this when he proposed.

 

[Majik1387]

It was just Peter and his adoptive mother, Aunt May, that believed it....

 

[The Joker]

Actually the only person who didn't believe it was Betty, because she asked MJ. She knew. She's the only one MJ told.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I'd like to think that Aunt May knew about MJ's insecurities and saw past the facade. Remember, she was very close friends with MJ's "surrogate mother" Anna Watson.

But if Aunt May knew she was putting on a facade, why didn't she tell MJ to tell the truth to Peter that she's not ready to settle down and be in a serious relationship because she has troubled past issues she has to deal with? That would be more sensible than leading Peter on and telling her she should go after him.

I don't think Aunt May knew. MJ fooled her as well like everyone else apart from Miss Betty Brant who she confessed to when Betty asked her about Peter.

 

[sl500jazz]

Yes she did.

Agreed to disagree.

Hang on a second, if Gwen rejected his proposal that would be wrong, even though she didn't know he was Spider-Man either, but it's ok for MJ to do it for the exact same reason?

I don't deny Peter's proposal was too soon because they both had not opened to each other completely, and I would say the same if he proposed to Gwen without telling her either. But that's not the point. The point is Peter had been under the illusion by her that their relationship was serious enough, that she was committed to him, that marriage was not on the cards.

Not that he was with someone who was wanting to go out and pick up the whole world of guys that are out there.

Because Gwen clearly wanted marriage. She had no qualms about being in love or about being in a serious relationship. She pushed for the relationship in the first place. She wanted Peter to propose to her before she left to London and was upset that he didn't. Rejecting his proposal would've made no sense whatsoever.

Yeah maybe she did. But that's not the point. Aunt May, like Peter, thought MJ was the one for him. It wasn't just Peter who was believing this when he proposed.

And Ultimately, she was right (if we ignore OMD).

 

[The Joker]

Agreed to disagree.

Fair enough.

Because Gwen clearly wanted marriage. She had no qualms about being in love or about being in a serious relationship. She pushed for the relationship in the first place. She wanted Peter to propose to her before she left to London and was upset that he didn't. Rejecting his proposal would've made no sense whatsoever.

Gwen being in love and being in a serious relationship doesn't equate to her wanting marriage some day. Some people are content with just being in a committed relationship and not ever getting married.

But again that's not the point. The point is both Gwen and MJ were in a serious relationship with Peter, MJ was not showing interest in other men or giving any indication this was always a casual temporary thing.

And Ultimately, she was right (if we ignore OMD).

Right. So was Peter. It was MJ's personal issues and phony facade that led to the rejected proposal. That was my point all along. MJ is not a lily white character who is always an open honest book and has never led Peter down a garden path or hurt him.

Btw we should all ignore OMD lol.

 

[Spider-knight]

Dan Slott's MJ was horrible though

 

[sl500jazz]

Fair enough.

Gwen being in love and being in a serious relationship doesn't equate to her wanting marriage some day. Some people are content with just being in a committed relationship and not ever getting married.

But again that's not the point. The point is both Gwen and MJ were in a serious relationship with Peter, MJ was not showing interest in other men or giving any indication this was always a casual temporary thing.

No it doesn't, but this does:

Right. So was Peter. It was MJ's personal issues and phony facade that led to the rejected proposal. That was my point all along. MJ is not a lily white character who is always an open honest book and has never led Peter down a garden path or hurt him.

Ok.

MJ masked her insecurities with the phony "never serious party girl" facade. That is true.

But you're also suggesting that (on top of that facade) she somehow intentionally tricked Peter into thinking that she was ready for marriage, which I do not agree with at all.

Btw we should all ignore OMD lol.

Agreed

 

[The Joker]

No it doesn't, but this does:

Yeah that does. But that's the shoe on the other foot. That's Gwen pressuring Peter into marriage when he's not ready. Not to mention a totally different scenario. He's not against getting married to her some day. Unlike MJ, who was not able to commit, and never said anything.

Ok.

MJ masked her insecurities with the phony "never serious party girl" facade. That is true.

But you're also suggesting that (on top of that facade) she somehow intentionally tricked Peter into thinking that she was ready for marriage, which I do not agree with at all.

No she tricked Peter into thinking they were in a serious committed relationship. He had no indications from her that it was a casual thing that was going nowhere. He thought it was serious, as did Aunt May and everyone else bar Betty. So Peter naturally assumed that it could lead to marriage. Hence why he proposed, and MJ dropped the clanger that she's not a committing type, that she wants to be free to go be with the whole world of men out there.

That's what I'm saying. He'd never have gotten to a proposal stage if he knew this.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Ok.

MJ masked her insecurities with the phony "never serious party girl" facade. That is true.

But you're also suggesting that (on top of that facade) she somehow intentionally tricked Peter into thinking that she was ready for marriage, which I do not agree with at all.

When you lead someone into believing they are in committed relationship that is tricking them. Everything that happens because of that false belief is a consequence of that trick.

 

[sl500jazz]

Yeah that does. But that's the shoe on the other foot. That's Gwen pressuring Peter into marriage when he's not ready. Not to mention a totally different scenario. He's not against getting married to her some day. Unlike MJ, who was not able to commit, and never said anything.

What I'm getting at with the whole Gwen thing, is that Gwen sent clear signals that she wanted marriage. Had she turned around and rejected Peter's proposal, that would have been the very definition of "stringing him along". MJ did not do that. They were dating for a while, and after years of knowing eachother, they were just starting to get to know eachother on a deeper level when Peter sprung marriage on her.

And she did say something once she was finally ready to come to terms with her past.

No she tricked Peter into thinking they were in a serious committed relationship. He had no indications from her that it was a casual thing that was going nowhere. He thought it was serious, as did Aunt May and everyone else bar Betty. So Peter naturally assumed that it could lead to marriage. Hence why he proposed, and MJ dropped the clanger that she's not a committing type, that she wants to be free to go be with the whole world of men out there.

That's what I'm saying. He'd never have gotten to a proposal stage if he knew this.

MJ didn't really think that being with Peter was just a casual thing. She was falling for him. At that point, marriage hadn't been brought into the equation. She wasn't ready for it and it scared her so she used the ol' party girl excuse. Again, she came clean to him when she was finally ready to do so, and the marriage followed.

 

[The Joker]

What I'm getting at with the whole Gwen thing, is that Gwen sent clear signals that she wanted marriage. Had she turned around and rejected Peter's proposal, that would have been the very definition of "stringing him along". MJ did not do that. They were dating for a while, and after years of knowing eachother were just starting to get to know eachother on a deeper level when Peter sprung marriage on her.

Yes I know. My point was that even if Gwen never said she wanted marriage, being in a committed relationship is not an automatic green light that someone wants to be married some day.

That's not the stringing along part rejecting his proposal. It was revealing that what they had was nothing. Just a casual tete e tete that MJ ended on the spot so she could go out after the men of the world.

MJ didn't really think that being with Peter was just a casual thing. She was falling for him. At that point, marriage hadn't been brought into the equation. She wasn't ready for it and it scared her so she used the ol' party girl excuse. Again, she came clean to him when she was finally ready to do so, and the marriage followed.

Again I know all that. I've been saying that all along. She confessed later why she rejected his marriage proposal. The reasons were not that Peter proposed too quickly, or he had misinterpreted their relationship or anything like that. It was because of personal demons from MJ's past. Meaning the issues were hers. He suffered because of them. I'm not saying she wanted to hurt him or even planned to but she did.

MJ messing men around is a trait of the character because of her personal demons. It's a famous trait of the character.

 

[sl500jazz]

Yes I know. My point was that even if Gwen never said she wanted marriage, being in a committed relationship is not an automatic green light that someone wants to be married some day.

True

That's not the stringing along part rejecting his proposal. It was revealing that what they had was nothing. Just a casual tete e tete that MJ ended on the spot so she could go out after the men of the world.

Again I know all that. I've been saying that all along. She confessed later why she rejected his marriage proposal. The reasons were not that Peter proposed too quickly, or he had misinterpreted their relationship or anything like that. It was because of personal demons from MJ's past. Meaning the issues were hers. He suffered because of them. I'm not saying she wanted to hurt him or even planned to but she did.

MJ messing men around is a trait of the character because of her personal demons. It's a famous trait of the character.

I'm not denying that MJ hurt Peter by saying what she said, but again I don't think that equates to "stringing him along". That implies that she intentionally dragged out the relationship just to break his heart. She loved him, but she just wasn't ready for marriage and couldn't come to terms with her true feelings at that point.

She didn't say that to be pushy, spiteful, or vindictive, or because she was jealous or had developed feelings for somebody else.

She was shocked by Peter's proposal. Her tumultuous upbringing caused her to have a very negative view of marriage. From MJ's perspective, by ending it the way that she did, she was sparing them both future pain, heartache, and disappointment.

 

[The Joker]

I'm not denying that MJ hurt Peter by saying what she said, but again I don't think that equates to "stringing him along". That implies that she intentionally dragged out the relationship just to break his heart. She loved him, but she just wasn't ready for marriage and couldn't come to terms with her true feelings at that point.

She didn't say that to be pushy, spiteful, or vindictive, or because she was jealous or had developed feelings for somebody else.

She was shocked by Peter's proposal. Her tumultuous upbringing caused her to have a very negative view of marriage. From MJ's perspective, by ending it the way that she did, she was sparing them both future pain, heartache, and disappointment.

If you are in a relationship with someone, and they clearly think it's a serious committed relationship, even the Aunt of your boyfriend thinks it is, but to you know it's not, and you don't tell this person then that is stringing them along. There's no two ways about that.

Whether MJ was too scared to tell Peter, or too insecure or what ever, the point is moot. She didn't tell him, and she allowed it to reach the point where he proposed marriage, and that backed her into a corner where she had no choice but to tell him that what they had was nothing.

If it wasn't just marriage she wasn't ready for then she could have said so. She could have said ask me again in six months or a year. But she didn't. She ended the whole thing.

Before you say it yet again, I know she did it because of her personal issues from her background. But the point is MJ did string him along, she did reject him, and this facade of hers is what led her through this using men because she just couldn't commit to anyone.

MJ was a damaged person because of her past/home life and this had negative consequences on her love life and how she treated men like play things.

 

[Andrew Lucas]

Geez Christ..... where's Kirsten MJ?

 

[sl500jazz]

If you are in a relationship with someone, and they clearly think it's a serious committed relationship, even the Aunt of your boyfriend thinks it is, but to you know it's not, and you don't tell this person then that is stringing them along. There's no two ways about that.

Whether MJ was too scared to tell Peter, or too insecure or what ever, the point is moot. She didn't tell him, and she allowed it to reach the point where he proposed marriage, and that backed her into a corner where she had no choice but to tell him that what they had was nothing.

If it wasn't just marriage she wasn't ready for then she could have said so. She could have said ask me again in six months or a year. But she didn't. She ended the whole thing.

Before you say it yet again, I know she did it because of her personal issues from her background. But the point is MJ did string him along, she did reject him, and this facade of hers is what led her through this using men because she just couldn't commit to anyone.

MJ was a damaged person because of her past/home life and this had negative consequences on her love life and how she treated men like play things.

We fundamentally disagree on relationships and the definition of "stringing someone along". I will say that while MJ was dating Peter, she was "committed" to him. She was more dishonest with herself, then she was with Peter or anyone else. Despite her insecurities, MJ has not consistently used men. That's a misinterpretation of the character. And the point about MJ's thoughts and intentions is not moot because it encapsulates part of the essence of the character that the Raimi trilogy failed to capture.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

When you lead someone into believing they are in committed relationship that is tricking them. Everything that happens because of that false belief is a consequence of that trick.

Are you talking about Mary Jane from the comics, because she certainly didn't lead Peter into believing they would eventually walk down the aisle.

This is their last conversation about the relationship prior to the proposal. Note it's Peter who suggested they just let things ride for a while.

Spoiler

No she tricked Peter into thinking they were in a serious committed relationship. He had no indications from her that it was a casual thing that was going nowhere. He thought it was serious, as did Aunt May and everyone else bar Betty. So Peter naturally assumed that it could lead to marriage. Hence why he proposed, and MJ dropped the clanger that she's not a committing type, that she wants to be free to go be with the whole world of men out there.

She believed Mary Jane was the one for Peter, but she certainly didn't think she was ready to marry him. Her and Anna talked about it.

Spoiler

If May's advocacy was because she believed Peter and MJ were in a serious relationship, why did she still push Peter toward MJ when they were no longer dating?

Spoiler

The moment Peter decides to propose is actually shown in ASM #177. Neither the nature of their relationship nor whether she's ready to take the next step comes up. It's all about how he feels.

Spoiler

Wolfman did such an excellent job of not portraying MJ as leading Peter on, he had MJ attempt to tell him she's not ready for a serious committed relationship early in the issue he proposes.

Spoiler

 

[The Joker]

We fundamentally disagree on relationships and the definition of "stringing someone along". I will say that while MJ was dating Peter, she was "committed" to him. She was more dishonest with herself, then she was with Peter or anyone else. Despite her insecurities, MJ has not consistently used men. That's a misinterpretation of the character. And the point about MJ's thoughts and intentions is not moot because it encapsulates part of the essence of the character that the Raimi trilogy failed to capture.

If she was dishonest with herself, then her subsequent actions were dishonest with Peter, too. The result is still the same no matter what way you swing it. She was stringing someone along for something she knew she wasn't ready for. The semantics of her insecurities don't change that.

She believed Mary Jane was the one for Peter, but she certainly didn't think she was ready to marry him. Her and Anna talked about it.

Spoiler

There's nothing in those panels that mention Aunt May saying she doesn't think Peter and MJ are ready for marriage. She just says to Anna that Peter and MJ have to handle their own lives.

If May's advocacy was because she believed Peter and MJ were in a serious relationship, why did she still push Peter toward MJ when they were no longer dating?

Spoiler

Because she believed they made a mistake breaking up. That they were meant for each other obviously. The clue is the dialogue; I thought you would make a good couple and you have a lot more in common with each other than you realize.

Was that a rhetorical question?

The moment Peter decides to propose is actually shown in ASM #177. Neither the nature of their relationship nor whether she's ready to take the next step comes up. It's all about how he feels.

Spoiler

Can you quote the lines in those panels which indicate Peter has decided to propose marriage because I don't see the words marriage or proposal anywhere.

Wolfman did such an excellent job of not portraying MJ as leading Peter on, he had MJ attempt to tell him she's not ready for a serious committed relationship early in the issue he proposes.

Spoiler

She's wittering on about how much his Aunt May cares about him. What makes you think she was about to tell him so based on this?

 

[sl500jazz]

If she was dishonest with herself, then her subsequent actions were dishonest with Peter, too. The result is still the same no matter what way you swing it. She was stringing someone along for something she knew she wasn't ready for. The semantics of her insecurities don't change that.

No. That would be agreeing to marry Peter (to make someone else jealous) and then leaving him at the altar.

Not dating him and rejecting his proposal because she wasn't ready to take the next step. Your arguments are very Peter-centric. Peter wasn't victimized there.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

We fundamentally disagree on relationships and the definition of "stringing someone along". I will say that while MJ was dating Peter, she was "committed" to him. She was more dishonest with herself, then she was with Peter or anyone else. Despite her insecurities, MJ has not consistently used men. That's a misinterpretation of the character. And the point about MJ's thoughts and intentions is not moot because it encapsulates part of the essence of the character that the Raimi trilogy failed to capture.

Why does you think MJ was fooling herself change that she still strung Peter along when she did because she knew she didn't want to be tied down, and she let it go on and on until she had to tell him the truth when he proposed. That's stringing a person along.

You're wrong she also strung Harry along and when she dumped him that is what caused him to do drugs.

Are you talking about Mary Jane from the comics, because she certainly didn't lead Peter into believing they would eventually walk down the aisle.

I did not say she did. I said she led him to believe they were having a serious relationship.

This is their last conversation about the relationship prior to the proposal. Note it's Peter who suggested they just let things ride for a while.

Spoiler

How many issues before the proposal was this?