whats so bad about MJ and the romance?

[The Joker]

Peter being Spider-man was not a barrier, but Peter being dishonest and not revealing his secret identity was most definitely a factor in the proposal rejection.

Yes, but Peter didn't know that she knew. Whether he told her or not, it would have still been a factor. He can't change that.

This is going in circles. Agreed to disagree.

Fair enough.

I will say though it has been nice debating with you on this. I admire passionate fans like you and AngryFantasyFan who are willing to go the extra mile and have a good in depth discussion about this kind of stuff. It's a dying art.

I can tell by your avatar you love Gwen and MJ.

 

[Majik1387]

We fundamentally disagree on relationships and the definition of "stringing someone along". I will say that while MJ was dating Peter, she was "committed" to him. She was more dishonest with herself, then she was with Peter or anyone else. Despite her insecurities, MJ has not consistently used men. That's a misinterpretation of the character. And the point about MJ's thoughts and intentions is not moot because it encapsulates part of the essence of the character that the Raimi trilogy failed to capture.

This. So much this.

Are you talking about Mary Jane from the comics, because she certainly didn't lead Peter into believing they would eventually walk down the aisle.

This is their last conversation about the relationship prior to the proposal. Note it's Peter who suggested they just let things ride for a while.

Spoiler

She believed Mary Jane was the one for Peter, but she certainly didn't think she was ready to marry him. Her and Anna talked about it.

Spoiler

If May's advocacy was because she believed Peter and MJ were in a serious relationship, why did she still push Peter toward MJ when they were no longer dating?

Spoiler

The moment Peter decides to propose is actually shown in ASM #177. Neither the nature of their relationship nor whether she's ready to take the next step comes up. It's all about how he feels.

Spoiler

Wolfman did such an excellent job of not portraying MJ as leading Peter on, he had MJ attempt to tell him she's not ready for a serious committed relationship early in the issue he proposes.

Spoiler

Thank you. I knew I wasn't remembering this sort of stuff from nowhere.

Let's see where it goes is not an indication that you're relationship is serious.

Maybe this is a regional thing, but steady dating doesn't mean the same thing as going steady. Going steady requires a statement of intention.

Before. Do you really just assume people are going to change their views after they get involved with you.

The opposite, I think they are all old enough and smart enough to not assume Mary Jane is going to change who she is for Peter. If she made a statement about how serious or committed they were to each other, she would be leading Peter on.

Thank you. I'm beginning to think the majority of this disagreement is based on the personal ideas of dating.

Peter in those days never dated a girl unless he thought they were right for him as a long term girlfriend. Peter was too straight arrow to go through girls casually. When he gave his heart to someone he wanted it for keeps.

And that's on Peter, not the girls he falls for.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

And that's on Peter, not the girls he falls for.

No because he didn't date them unless he believed they were not just short term non serious girls. MJ is the only one who fooled him on that. And she admitted why after.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Oh right so Peter was looking for a quickie just because he never actually said he was looking for something steady. Yeah that's really his style based on his previous relationships prior to MJ.

Is that what growing closer means to you? He didn't kick the tires and look under the hood, He developed feelings for her.

They do because they May pushes them to be together even after they have broken up and she would not do that if she thought they were not meant to be together. Anna Watson thought marriage was for them. She would not believe so if she thought her MJ was not serious about Peter.

She would if she thought they would make a good couple, which is what she told Peter. My mom thinks I would make a good doctor, doesn't mean she thinks it is meant to be.

The writers would not show three characters believing in Peter and MJ being meant to be so strongly if their relationship was nothing solid.

This is Spider-Man, not Twilight. The aunts believed they could be good together before Peter and MJ even met. They were pulling for MJ back when Gwen was the primary love interest, and MJ was the spoiler.

 

[The Joker]

Is that what growing closer means to you? He didn't kick the tires and look under the hood, He developed feelings for her.

No, I'm not talking about the process of them growing closer, I'm talking about the point where they actually fell in love and were dating as a result of them getting close.

Thanks for the scan though. It reaffirms what I've been saying. He wasn't with her for any reason other than he had genuine feelings for her.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

She would if she thought they would make a good couple, which is what she told Peter. My mom thinks I would make a good doctor, doesn't mean she thinks it is meant to be.

That is not the same. Your Mom is not pushing you to be a doctor, but Aunt May tried to get Peter and MJ to be together, even after they broke up.

This is Spider-Man, not Twilight. The aunts believed they could be good together before Peter and MJ even met. They were pulling for MJ back when Gwen was the primary love interest, and MJ was the spoiler.

That is not true. Aunt May was very supportive of Peter and Gwen. She just thought it was a shame that it didn't work with Peter and MJ.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

I will say though it has been nice debating with you on this. I admire passionate fans like you and AngryFantasyFan who are willing to go the extra mile and have a good in depth discussion about this kind of stuff. It's a dying art.

I can tell by your avatar you love Gwen and MJ.

I can't speak for sl500jazz, but I find it hard to be an MJ fan and not like Gwen. Her death had such a profound effect on the character.

I'm bowing out too.

 

[sl500jazz]

Yes, but Peter didn't know that she knew. Whether he told her or not, it would have still been a factor. He can't change that.



Fair enough.

I will say though it has been nice debating with you on this. I admire passionate fans like you and AngryFantasyFan who are willing to go the extra mile and have a good in depth discussion about this kind of stuff. It's a dying art.

I can tell by your avatar you love Gwen and MJ.

Yes, I do love Gwen and MJ.

It's definitely been great debating with you and Doctor Octopus too. I can tell that you are also passionate fans of the comics and the Raimi films as well. Anyway, we've both made our points so I'm signing out for now. Though, I'll probably be back to this thread later.

@AngryFantasyFan has really done an awesome job of pulling out little moments from the comics that I had honestly forgotten about.

 

[The Joker]

I can't speak for sl500jazz, but I find it hard to be an MJ fan and not like Gwen. Her death had such a profound effect on the character.

I agree. I hate when some fans say the only memorable thing Gwen ever did was die. It may well be the most famous incident about her, but it's not the only memorable thing about her.

But yeah I like MJ the most out of the two. A deeper more complex character.

I'm bowing out too.

Fair enough. Nice talking to you, too.

See you around the forums hopefully.

Yes, I do love Gwen and MJ.

It's definitely been great debating with you and Doctor Octopus too. I can tell that you are also passionate fans of the comics and the Raimi films as well. Anyway, we've both made our points so I'm signing out for now. Though, I'll probably be back to this thread later.

Thank you. That's very kind of you

See you around, too.

 

[Leenie]

I completely agree. First of all MJ is a very insecure woman('cause of her dad) and every decision she takes is from that mindset. Realize how she always dates men of power or some sort of high status: Flash was the popular guy of HS, Harry was rich, James was rich and somewhat famous, etc. She did it because she was seeking validation from her father and herself.

The reason she fell in love with Peter in the first place is because he is the only one who made her feel worthy beyond her looks which was something completely new for her. Those type of things actually happen in real life.

In Spider-Man 3 she became even more insecure when she was fired(she felt exactly like her father used to make her feel) and Peter was becoming 'successful', she thought Peter might not think her "worthy" anymore which showcased her low self-esteem. You can notice all of this by paying attention to all her scenes, its actually there! lol

I haven't read the comics but from what I've read about her character the only thing that was missing in her character was the "party girl act", MJ is supposed to present herself as a fun, cocky and seductive woman to hide her insecurity and this never came across in the movies unfortunately because that would have made her an extremely compelling character but for the most part the writing of her character and Dunst' performance were really good. In fact she's probably one of the most compelling female characters in superhero movies along with Pepper Potts in Iron Man.

This post. It's really late where I am right now, so I'll try to make this as brief as I can, but here are some of my two cents about Dunst's Mary Jane Watson:

First off, I am very much "over" the whole mantra about Dunst not being "hot enough." Move on, guys. Maybe it's because I'm a female myself; all I know is that I'm sick of hearing/reading it.

In terms of Dunst's acting in the films, I think she did a fine job. Don't get me wrong, I think that there are other actresses who would do a fine job as well, so Dunst isn't my "end all, be all" MJ. To be totally honest, though, she was my favorite character in Spider-Man 3, and the character that I easily felt the most sympathy for (I know this is an unpopular opinion). I've never interpreted her motives as jealousy for Peter's success in Spider-Man 3. I saw it as "hey, I'm being a supportive girlfriend for you, but I need some support too." Clearly MJ had self-esteem issues stemming from Spider-Man 1. Seeing the man she loves gaining success while she is going through a failure/stepback in her career (and being ignored by her significant other) is sure to cause some very strong feelings of hurt and loneliness. I don't know about anyone else, but when I confide in someone I trust wholeheartedly when something bad happens, the LAST thing I want to hear from them is "Oh, just cheer up! It'll get better! I went through this, so you can too!"

As for Kirsten Dunst's chemistry with Tobey Maguire, I totally felt it, from the beginning of Spider-Man 1 when Peter asked MJ to take a picture of her. Their relationship in the first movie was a case where it was set to make the audience root for the underdog to get the girl, and I think it was very effective. My favorite piece of dialogue between these two characters will always be when they talk about their aspirations and their future after high school. It's funny, charming, and heartfelt.

In Spider-Man 2, we were all supposed to feel a distance between the two, where both of them were longing for each other, but both were convinced that it wouldn't be able to happen. From MJ's perspective, the man she truly loves (and someone who genuinely accepts her for who she is) rejected her. That's crushing to any real human being. MJ practically was trying to force herself to move on because (a) she was seeking validation again to try to fill a void, and (b) her brain was telling her that she needs to stop waiting for Peter and get on with her life. These are normal human thoughts and emotions, in my opinion. Does it represent a perfect person? Of course not; it represents a complex human being. In Spider-Man 2, I believed that BOTH Peter and Mary Jane were very much in pain and very much lost. That's why, in my opinion, it's so rewarding to hear Mary Jane's speech to Peter at the end of Spider-Man 2. Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson have always brought out the best in each other, and MJ's speech at the end of the movie displays that.

I would actually argue that the party girl act was shown for a little bit in Spider-Man 1. The way she acted around Flash Thompson and her friends ... Seemed very artificial and was a total facade. That's why I actually believe MJ when she professes her love for Peter at the end of Spider-Man 1 and Spider-Man 2 because he makes her feel like being herself is okay; that her flaws are okay to have and that despite her flaws, she is worthy of being loved by someone. Is that not a big part of what love is, anyway?

I've overall always preferred Peter x MJ over Peter x Gwen (I'm not expressing hate towards Gwen, though!), because the romance has always felt more real to me. Peter and Mary Jane show each other their flaws, and in the end, they're still together. Like I said, that feels real (as real as you can get with comic books, I suppose). I think that Raimi's movies were overall successful in displaying that.

As for the "damsel in distress" thing, whatever. If I were dating a superhero, and his identity was discovered by a supervillain, I'm preeeettttyyy certain that I wouldn't be able to do much to defend myself. From a story-telling standpoint, the damsel thing worked in Spider-Man 1 and 2. The only time I felt it was unnecessary was in Spider-Man 3 (because we had already seen it before twice, AND it would have made more sense for Gwen or even JJJ to an extent to be kidnapped by Venom). That's on the writing though, not Dunst.

As for "comic book accuracy," I think the only thing worth noting that wasn't exactly like the comics with Dunst's MJ was the amount of spunk and sass. She had some of it, but definitely not to the extent of the comic books. Dunst actually reminds me a lot more of the 1990's cartoon version of Mary Jane, who pretty much kept her sass and sexuality at a "PG"-level.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

She was written horribly! How are you supposed to say an unlikeable character is GOOD??
An unlikeable character is an unlikeable character,
no matter how hard they tried to make her unlikeable, if she is unlikeable, SHE'S A TERRIBLE CHARACTER

How can you say that? An unlikeable character can still be compelling, villains for examble are not supposed to be likeable yet they're still supposed to be complex and interesting. I never said MJ was unlikeable anyway, I said that she could come across like that sometimes but that was part of her character.

 

[The Joker]

Excellent post, Leenie

 

[sl500jazz]

No because he didn't date them unless he believed they were not just short term non serious girls. MJ is the only one who fooled him on that. And she admitted why after.

I know this whole issue was put to bed several days ago, but I was just rereading some of the old issues. If this were true, then why would Peter continue to pursue MJ just a few issues after she rejects his proposal and makes it very clear that she wouldn't settle down? She rejects the proposal in issue #183 and in #191 he tries to convince her to go out on a date.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Because he was in love with her by then. He didn't want to give up on her. If he had known at the start when they first started dating after Gwen's death that she was not looking to get serious and settle down ever, then he wouldn't have let it get as far as him falling for her. But by the time she rejected his proposal and he found out he loved her.

 

[The Joker]

Actually the reason Peter was keen to get MJ on a date in this particular instance was to make Betty lose interest in him and go back to her hubby, Ned Leeds. Betty returned in #184 with the hots for Peter.

 

[sl500jazz]

Because he was in love with her by then. He didn't want to give up on her. If he had known at the start when they first started dating after Gwen's death that she was not looking to get serious and settle down ever, then he wouldn't have let it get as far as him falling for her. But by the time she rejected his proposal and he found out he loved her.

So you're suggesting that Peter just- out of the blue- decided to date MJ when Gwen croaked? Not that, after years of knowing each other, they formed a closer bond,and he fell for her past the initial attraction that he felt in ASM #43.

Actually the reason Peter was keen to get MJ on a date in this particular instance was to make Betty lose interest in him and go back to her hubby, Ned Leeds. Betty returned in #184 with the hots for Peter.

Actually the first thing Peter says when he gets off the phone is "Faaantastic! Maybe we can pick up where we left off!" in reference to his relationship with MJ. It wasn't just to push Betty away, it was to get back on track with MJ, whom he still cared for.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

So you're suggesting that Peter just- out of the blue- decided to date MJ when Gwen croaked? Not that, after years of knowing each other, they formed a closer bond,and he fell for her past the initial attraction that he felt in ASM #43.

I'm saying that he would not have gone down the road of dating her and eventually falling for her if he knew ahead of time that she would respond the way she did after he proposed about being never settling for one guy when there's a world of other men she wants to meet.

We have been over all this before.

 

[The Joker]

Actually the first thing Peter says when he gets off the phone is "Faaantastic! Maybe we can pick up where we left off!" in reference to his relationship with MJ. It wasn't just to push Betty away, it was to get back on track with MJ, whom he still cared for.

Ok fair enough. My memory is a bit hazy on the fine details of that issue. I distinctly remember he wanted to take MJ out so it would put Betty off.

But I concur it's because he was in love with her. He didn't want to lose someone he was in love with.

 

[sl500jazz]

Ok fair enough. My memory is a bit hazy on the fine details of that issue. I distinctly remember he wanted to take MJ out so it would put Betty off.

But I concur it's because he was in love with her. He didn't want to lose someone he was in love with.

Fair enough.

I'm saying that he would not have gone down the road of dating her and eventually falling for her if he knew ahead of time that she would respond the way she did after he proposed about being never settling for one guy when there's a world of other men she wants to meet.

We have been over all this before.

He chose not to go down that road when he decided to date Gwen over MJ (back in the Silver Age I might add). He fell for her after Gwen died (when the landscape of the books, and the medium in general, had changed significantly). They clung to each other for support. When Peter needed someone the most, MJ was a friend- if not his best friend. Initially, he chose not to fall for her (and she desperately tried not to fall for him as evidenced by what she tells Betty in issue #131 before they were romantically involved), but it happened anyway. The heart wants what the heart wants.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

He chose not to go down that road when he decided to date Gwen over MJ (back in the Silver Age I might add). He fell for her after Gwen died (when the landscape of the books, and the medium in general, had changed significantly). They clung to each other for support. When Peter needed someone the most, MJ was a friend- if not his best friend. Initially, he chose not to fall for her (and she desperately tried not to fall for him as evidenced by what she tells Betty in issue #131 before they were romantically involved), but it happened anyway. The heart wants what the heart wants.

That was when he didn't see a different side to Gwen. But when Gwen died MJ changed and became more supportive of Peter, and he saw a different side to her and was drawn to her more.

If he knew she would say what she said when he proposed then he wouldn't have pursued a relationship with her. He wouldn't be in a relationship with them if he knew they were going to be like that. He's not looking for girls like that.

We have talked about this all before.

 

[sl500jazz]

That was when he didn't see a different side to Gwen. But when Gwen died MJ changed and became more supportive of Peter, and he saw a different side to her and was drawn to her more.

If he knew she would say what she said when he proposed then he wouldn't have pursued a relationship with her. He wouldn't be in a relationship with them if he knew they were going to be like that. He's not looking for girls like that.

We have talked about this all before.

He didn't see a different side to Gwen? What does that mean? At that time, he didn't choose MJ over Gwen. He deliberately chose Gwen over MJ. He saw Gwen and grew to love her very much. This isn't meant to be a Gwen vs. MJ debate.

Peter didn't deliberately choose to be with MJ. It's not something that he analyzed under a microscope. In fact, just the opposite is true. They fell for each other despite their differences and despite their initial unwillingness to do so. Just as you said, he pursued MJ even after she rejected his proposal because he cared for her, loved her, and wouldn't give up on her. That's the very reason why they transitioned from best friends to lovers in the first place. They fell hard for each other and as a result became romantically involved.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

He didn't see a different side to Gwen? What does that mean? At that time, he didn't choose MJ over Gwen. He deliberately chose Gwen over MJ. He saw Gwen and grew to love her very much. This isn't meant to be a Gwen vs. MJ debate.

Peter didn't deliberately choose to be with MJ. It's not something that he analyzed under a microscope. In fact, just the opposite is true. They fell for each other despite their differences and despite their initial unwillingness to do so. Just as you said, he pursued MJ even after she rejected his proposal because he cared for her, loved her, and wouldn't give up on her. That's the very reason why they transitioned from best friends to lovers in the first place. They fell hard for each other and as a result became romantically involved.

I don't know why you're bringing up Gwen. I was not talking about her or comparing her to MJ. Peter did choose to be with MJ. They started dating before they fell in love. It was them getting closer after Gwen's death that caused them to date and that turned to love.

I know I am right about Peter pursuing her because he loved her after she rejected his proposal. I don't understand why you asked that in first place if you agree with me. I think you just wanted to started this discussion again. We are both saying same things as last time.

 

[sl500jazz]

I don't know why you're bringing up Gwen. I was not talking about her or comparing her to MJ. Peter did choose to be with MJ. They started dating before they fell in love. It was them getting closer after Gwen's death that caused them to date and that turned to love.

I know I am right about Peter pursuing her because he loved her after she rejected his proposal. I don't understand why you asked that in first place if you agree with me. I think you just wanted to started this discussion again. We are both saying same things as last time.

You said "That was when he didn't see a different side to Gwen?" You mean MJ? What I focused on before was MJ, her motivations, and her insecurities. I hadnt really discussed Peter with you.

Anyway, if you can show me exactly when and where Peter deliberately decides to date MJ because she' s changed completely, then I'll believe it. Otherwise, the very basic premise that Peter and MJ were drawn together (almost as if by fate) despite their differences and resistance towards one another, is supported by Parallel Lives.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

You said "That was when he didn't see a different side to Gwen?" You mean MJ? Anyway, what I focused on before was MJ, her motivations, and her insecurities. I hadnt really discussed Peter with you.

Anyway, if you can show me exactly when and where Peter deliberately decides to date MJ because she' s changed completely, then I'll believe it. Otherwise, the very basic premise that Peter and MJ were drawn together (almost as if by fate) despite their differences and resistance towards one another, is supported by Parallel Lives.

Sorry yes my typo mistake, I meant MJ. He saw a different side to MJ.

It's when they start dating. That's when and where. He would not date her otherwise if he felt she didn't want the relationship to go anywhere at all and she was not committed. Peter is not a fool. He would not waste his time with a girl who is going to want to go around looking for other men.

I have said all this before.

 

[sl500jazz]

Sorry yes my typo mistake, I meant MJ. He saw a different side to MJ.

It's when they start dating. That's when and where. He would not date her otherwise if he felt she didn't want the relationship to go anywhere at all and she was not committed. Peter is not a fool. He would not waste his time with a girl who is going to want to go around looking for other men.

I have said all this before.

An issue? A panel? A page? There's really no indication that Peter started dating her because she completely changed her ways. It's an assumption based on early/mid 60s Silver Age sensibilities when the comics were clearly going in a different direction after Gwen's death. He pursued a relationship before and after the proposal because he cared for her. Not the other way around. That's one the reasons why Peter is so great. He's human. He gave into his emotions and so did she. It happens to the best of us.

Anyway, I'm out for now.