whats so bad about MJ and the romance?

[Doctor Octopus]

An issue? A panel? A page? There's really no indication that Peter started dating her because she completely changed her ways. It's an assumption based on early/mid 60s Silver Age sensibilities when the comics were clearly going in a different direction after Gwen's death. He pursued a relationship before and after the proposal because he cared for her. Not the other way around. That's one the reasons why Peter is so great. He's human. He gave into his emotions and so did she. It happens to the best of us.

Anyway, I'm out for now.

The issue, page, and panel that they began dating. When he started dating her properly that's the indication that he was taking her seriously. He wouldn't date her otherwise. He pursued a relationship before the proposal because he saw a different side to her after Gwen died. He pursued one after because he was in love with her by then.

Goodnight.

 

[sl500jazz]

He dated her because he developed feelings for her that weren't there before. Again, they grew closer. Showing compassion after Gwen's death does not mean that she's suddenly changed her outlook or approach to romantic relationships nor does Peter ever state that he believed that. BTW in Spectacular #21, Peter actually confesses to MJ that proposing to her was basically just a knee-jerk reaction to Aunt May's poor health. It wasn't because he felt as if their relationship was ready to take the next step or because MJ had fooled him into thinking that she wanted or was ready for a serious long term commitment. He clung to MJ because she had provided him with a sense of stability, support, and comfort after Gwen died. In fact, he was worried that he had permanently damaged his relationship with her by doing what he did.


Goodnight.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

When Gwen died MJ changed and became more supportive of Peter, and he saw a different side to her and was drawn to her more.

If he knew she would say what she said when he proposed then he wouldn't have pursued a relationship with her. He wouldn't be in a relationship with them if he knew they were going to be like that. He's not looking for girls like that who will not commit. Even if his marriage proposal was knee jerk, it doesn't change the fact that Peter wouldn't be with a girl who would rather go after other guys than settle with just him. Whether he was going to propose or not, the principle is the same.

Goodnight again.

 

[sl500jazz]

^ Peter developing feelings for MJ was not a result of him choosing to date her. There's no proof of that. Peter also wasn't the type to just outright ignore what he felt about her regardless of her inability to commit long term as evidenced by ASM #191.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Has anyone read Mary Jane by Judith O'brien?

I saw it being discussed on another forum. I believe it covers the Ultimate version of MJ and Peter's relationship.

At a first glance it looks to be geared towards a female audience, but a lot of members are highly praising it.

 

[Nardz937]

Has anyone read Mary Jane by Judith O'brien?

I saw it being discussed on another forum. I believe it covers the Ultimate version of MJ and Peter's relationship.

At a first glance it looks to be geared towards a female audience, but a lot of members are highly praising it.

Lol, I remember taking this book out of my school library when I was about nine or ten years old and reading it in class later and being like "Wow, they tricked me into reading a chick book just by putting Spider-Man on the cover". I don't remember how good it was, but I do remember it definitely being geared towards girls.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Lol, I remember taking this book out of my school library when I was about nine or ten years old and reading it in class later and being like "Wow, they tricked me into reading a chick book just by putting Spider-Man on the cover". I don't remember how good it was, but I do remember it definitely being geared towards girls.

That's what I expected to hear

I try to get my hands on whatever I can most of the time, so I was just curious.

It's funny though; there's grown men who have given it positive feedback!

 

[Oscorp]

No chemistry.
Two unlikeable characters (MJ moreso than Peter)
An extremely bad written MJ

Whenever MJ got kidnapped I didn't care the slightest about her. I actually hoped she would get killed, that's how much I disliked that character. There's just nothing that tells you convincingly why Peter is so much in love with her. Raimi's MJ is MJ in name only.

It's seriously THE worst CBM relationship I've ever seen. Yes, worse than the one in the Thor movies. MJ is even worse than Rachel.

 

[Majik1387]

Rachel honestly wasn't bad, and Jane was fine. You could actually relate to them/relate them to someone you know and kind of root for them somewhat if at all.

 

[icehero]

Not so much that the romance was On and Off but the fact that in every movie, MJ was taken hostage and when Spidey came to save her, the emotion between them changed.
That's why I kinda prefer Gwen a lil bit cos of the fact that she actually helps Spiderman and it's Emma Stone

 

[Andrew Lucas]

Not so much that the romance was On and Off but the fact that in every movie, MJ was taken hostage and when Spidey came to save her, the emotion between them changed.
That's why I kinda prefer Gwen a lil bit cos of the fact that she actually helps Spiderman and it's Emma Stone

Agreed. It was dull and boring with no heart at all. It sucked.

 

[TeeKay]

Jesus Christ, I've never read so much hyperbole in one thread alone. Wow.

LONG POST BUT PLEASE READ

I completely agree. First of all MJ is a very insecure woman('cause of her dad) and every decision she takes is from that mindset. Realize how she always dates men of power or some sort of high status: Flash was the popular guy of HS, Harry was rich, James was rich and somewhat famous, etc. She did it because she was seeking validation from her father and herself.

The reason she fell in love with Peter in the first place is because he is the only one who made her feel worthy beyond her looks which was something completely new for her. Those type of things actually happen in real life.

In Spider-Man 3 she became even more insecure when she was fired(she felt exactly like her father used to make her feel) and Peter was becoming 'successful', she thought Peter might not think her "worthy" anymore which showcased her low self-esteem. You can notice all of this by paying attention to all her scenes, its actually there! lol

I haven't read the comics but from what I've read about her character the only thing that was missing in her character was the "party girl act", MJ is supposed to present herself as a fun, cocky and seductive woman to hide her insecurity and this never came across in the movies unfortunately because that would have made her an extremely compelling character but for the most part the writing of her character and Dunst' performance were really good. In fact she's probably one of the most compelling female characters in superhero movies along with Pepper Potts in Iron Man.

--------------------

Also, I don't get why so many people like Gwen. Other than the fact that she's played by Emma Stone, there is nothing to her as a character. She's smart, hot, humble, nice, etc. But what are her flaws as a person? Yeah she doesn't have any!! Sure everyone would want a woman like that but the thing is, women like that don't exist!!! She's just the love interest of the movie, her only purpose in the movies is to be there to help her man(Peter). The only reason I mention Gwen is because the notion of MJ being a terrible character exists because people think Gwen is a better character and has the better romance which isn't true for the reasons above.

Agreed with all of this. I simply found MJ's character better written. Gwen was just there in TASM. In TASM2 they gave her some sort of character and motivation. The only time MJ was written bad was in SM3 and there was a lot wrong with that film from the script pov. I don't think she's as bad a character that some people are making her out to be. Too much hyperbole being thrown around in this thread.

That's because he doesn't need his girlfriend's help to defeat his enemies, or tell him how to defeat them either.

Ouch!

 

[GuestStar2004]

I don't even think there is a love story between her and Peter it was just him hungering for her and then stepped back to hunger for her again in SM2 and then when they got together in SM3 where he was already planning on marrying her and they were already having problems in their relationship

Her history with guys is questionable but The scene in SM3 where she kisses Harry really doesn't make her look very good

 

[GoldGoblin]

No chemistry.
Two unlikeable characters (MJ moreso than Peter)
An extremely bad written MJ

Whenever MJ got kidnapped I didn't care the slightest about her. I actually hoped she would get killed, that's how much I disliked that character. There's just nothing that tells you convincingly why Peter is so much in love with her. Raimi's MJ is MJ in name only.

It's seriously THE worst CBM relationship I've ever seen. Yes, worse than the one in the Thor movies. MJ is even worse than Rachel.

^
Exactly how I feel.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Jesus Christ, I've never read so much hyperbole in one thread alone. Wow.

Agreed with all of this. I simply found MJ's character better written. Gwen was just there in TASM. In TASM2 they gave her some sort of character and motivation. The only time MJ was written bad was in SM3 and there was a lot wrong with that film from the script pov. I don't think she's as bad a character that some people are making her out to be. Too much hyperbole being thrown around in this thread.

Agreed. lol I agree about the hyperbole. You are very right there.

Ouch!

lol well it is true and the truth does hurt sometimes.

I don't even think there is a love story between her and Peter it was just him hungering for her and then stepped back to hunger for her again in SM2 and then when they got together in SM3 where he was already planning on marrying her and they were already having problems in their relationship

Her history with guys is questionable but The scene in SM3 where she kisses Harry really doesn't make her look very good

That is a love story. Loving relationships have problems all the time. They sure did in the comic books. And they both wanted to be together, it was not just Peter wanting her. She wanted to be with Peter, but he wasn't willing to start a relationship so she was trying and failing to move on with her life. Once she finds out the truth about Peter, it doesn't take her long to leave John. That is also a common place thing in love stories. Women leave a rebound guy for her ex-boyfriend or someone they really love.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Not really the character is pretty flawed, she is written to be one of them girls who wants to find a certain type of guy so she can feel special, you know one of them girls who will go with the most popular guy in school so she can feel good about herself

the evidence is pretty much in all 3 films, she went with the guy because he had a cool car (I can't remember if it was flash since it's been a long while since I seen it) then she went with Harry (the rich guy) and then kisses the super hero (was she still dating Harry at the time? Eh oh) then there was one moment at the end of SM where it looked like she fallen for Peter (sweet but short lived) and then in the sequel she is dating the famous astronaut but still obsessing about the kiss with the super hero so she does the whole upside down kiss with the astronaut hoping its was him then obviously goes and starts kissing frogs (Peter) to find her super hero prince and then she abandons her fiancé once she finds out Peter is spider-man (ohh dating a super hero... But would she have done that otherwise?) then in SM3 she shows signs of being jealous of peters success as spider-man, she wants the fame but they ain't looking at her they are looking at him and there is even a shot of that in the film where she walks through the crowd thinking its for her and it's not and we are meant to feel sad for her

There is no love story there... This story is about a girl...

 

[The Joker]

Jesus Christ, I've never read so much hyperbole in one thread alone. Wow.

Glad to see other people have noticed that, too.

Agreed with all of this. I simply found MJ's character better written. Gwen was just there in TASM. In TASM2 they gave her some sort of character and motivation. The only time MJ was written bad was in SM3 and there was a lot wrong with that film from the script pov. I don't think she's as bad a character that some people are making her out to be. Too much hyperbole being thrown around in this thread.

I couldn't agree more. Give me a complicated, flawed love interest, over a practically perfect in every way one any day.

Not really the character is pretty flawed

That's what makes her such an interesting realistic character, just like the comic book MJ. She's a flawed damaged person.

she is written to be one of them girls who wants to find a certain type of guy so she can feel special, you know one of them girls who will go with the most popular guy in school so she can feel good about herself

No, she's not. I'll explain exactly in response to the next part of your post...

the evidence is pretty much in all 3 films, she went with the guy because he had a cool car (I can't remember if it was flash since it's been a long while since I seen it) then she went with Harry (the rich guy) and then kisses the super hero (was she still dating Harry at the time? Eh oh) then there was one moment at the end of SM where it looked like she fallen for Peter (sweet but short lived) and then in the sequel she is dating the famous astronaut but still obsessing about the kiss with the super hero so she does the whole upside down kiss with the astronaut hoping its was him then obviously goes and starts kissing frogs (Peter) to find her super hero prince and then she abandons her fiancé once she finds out Peter is spider-man (ohh dating a super hero... But would she have done that otherwise?) then in SM3 she shows signs of being jealous of peters success as spider-man, she wants the fame but they ain't looking at her they are looking at him and there is even a shot of that in the film where she walks through the crowd thinking its for her and it's not and we are meant to feel sad for her

Oh my goodness, where to start on this;

1. She was already dating Flash before he even got a car. Then we see her dumping Flash at the graduation. So how does this make her want to be with the guy who's got the cool car?

2. You see Harry keenly watching MJ dump Flash, clearly implying he asked her out not the other way around. She didn't go after him.

3. She wants to be with Peter long before she even knew he was Spider-Man. She wanted to be with him ever since the end of SM-1, but he rejected her on the basis that he felt his life as Spider-Man was too dangerous for her to be involved in. She tried to connect with him again several times in Spider-Man 2. That's why she called him to the cafe right before Ock abducted her. It had nothing to do with Peter being a super hero.

4. She tried the upside down kiss on John to see if she got that same romantic feeling she got when she did it with Spider-Man. She didn't. That's why in the very next scene you see her meeting with Peter at the cafe to try and rekindle with him. She never suspected for a second that John was Spider-Man. I don't know where you pulled that notion from.

Your whole opinion is based on factually incorrect assumptions. This is why people call hyperbole on these criticisms. Most of them are either grossly exaggerated, or like in your case completely untrue.

There is no love story there... This story is about a girl...

The girl Peter is in love with, hence it's a love story.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Glad to see other people have noticed that, too.



I couldn't agree more. Give me a complicated, flawed love interest, over a practically perfect in every way one any day.





No, she's not. I'll explain exactly in response to the next part of your post...



Oh my goodness, where to start on this;

1. She was already dating Flash before he even got a car. Then we see her dumping Flash at the graduation. So how does this make her want to be with the guy who's got the cool car?

2. You see Harry keenly watching MJ dump Flash, clearly implying he asked her out not the other way around. She didn't go after him.

3. She wants to be with Peter long before she even knew he was Spider-Man. She wanted to be with him ever since the end of SM-1, but he rejected her on the basis that he felt his life as Spider-Man was too dangerous for her to be involved in. She tried to connect with him again several times in Spider-Man 2. That's why she called him to the cafe right before Ock abducted her. It had nothing to do with Peter being a super hero.

4. She tried the upside down kiss on John to see if she got that same romantic feeling she got when she did it with Spider-Man. She didn't. That's why in the very next scene you see her meeting with Peter at the cafe to try and rekindle with him. She never suspected for a second that John was Spider-Man. I don't know where you pulled that notion from.

Your whole opinion is based on factually incorrect assumptions. This is why people call hyperbole on these criticisms. Most of them are either grossly exaggerated, or like in your case completely untrue.



The girl Peter is in love with, hence it's a love story.

That's a fair enough view of it since I haven't watched the first 2 for years so there is only certain aspects I remember

I still have to disagree there is a love story there though and ain't sure there are many who felt the love story was there either

 

[The Joker]

That's a fair enough view of it since I haven't watched the first 2 for years so there is only certain aspects I remember

I still have to disagree there is a love story there though and ain't sure there are many who felt the love story was there either

Really? Show me the sources where these many opinions are please. If they're the majority then it should be easy to prove. I don't believe it for a second, and no offense but I also don't believe many people would be so blind and misguided to think so either. It is blatantly a love story. It's like saying John Carpenter's Halloween wasn't a horror movie.

I think you're talking more hyperbole. So I'm calling your bluff on this. Prove to me this is the consensus.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Really? Show me the sources where these many opinions are please. If they're the majority then it should be easy to prove. I don't believe it for a second, and no offense but I also don't believe many people would be so blind and misguided to think so either. It is blatantly a love story. It's like saying John Carpenter's Halloween wasn't a horror movie.

I think you're talking more hyperbole. So I'm calling your bluff on this. Prove to me this is the consensus.

The word Hyperbole is thrown around a lot in this thread... Its kinda ironic Actually

Oh well there is peter&MJhavenolovestory.com

Come on! what kinda source are you expecting? I am speaking for the criticisms I have seen over the years, if you wanna see it as "hyperbole" then you do that

 

[The Joker]

The word Hyperbole is thrown around a lot in this thread... Funny that

Yeah because it's true. It's one thing to dislike something, but it's another to exaggerate, or in your case make up criticisms that are simply not true at all.

Oh well there is peter&MJhavenolovestory.com

Come on! what kinda source are you expecting? I am speaking for the criticisms I have seen over the years, if you wanna see it as "hyperbole" then you do that

I didn't think you could prove it because you can't prove something that's not true. I've been here 10 years, and I can say hand on heart that you are the first person I've ever seen who has ever said it was not a love story. I thought I was seeing things when I read your post. At first I thought it was a typo and you meant to say it wasn't a good love story, but then you went into all those incorrect reasons why you believed what you were saying.

If you really want to push this go and do a search through the Hype archives using those words in the search engine and see how many posts you dig up saying the same thing. The archives go back quite a few years. To 2007 at least. I can already predict the results but if you really believe what you're saying then go for it.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Yeah because it's true. It's one thing to dislike something, but it's another to exaggerate, or in your case make up criticisms that are simply not true at all.

Truly ironic

I didn't think you could prove it because you can't prove something that's not true. I've been here nearly 10 years, and I can say hand on heart that you are the first person who has ever said it was not a love story. I thought I was seeing things when I read your post. At first I thought it was a typo and you meant to say it wasn't a good love story, but then you went into all those incorrect reasons why you believed what you were saying.

Well you might be right that I should have called it a not really good love story rather then no love story so I suppose it might have been abit an exaggeration on that part

As for the criticism i ain't doing that whole I search for links and posts thing so you can either take my word for it or don't I honestly don't care

 

[The Joker]

Truly ironic

Feel free to try and prove that, too. You may disagree with me on my opinions, but I've never based my criticisms on something that is factually untrue.

Well you might be right that I should have called it a not really good love story rather then no love story, I suppose it might have been abit an exaggeration on that part

As for the criticism we ain't doing that whole I search for links and posts thing, you can either take my word for it or don't I honestly don't care

I choose the latter for the aforementioned reasons. If something is a consensus then it's easy as pie to prove.

 

[LizardMan07]

Its a truely wonderful love story.

Unless you're John Jameson, then you're MJ's marital "fling" because she's confused.

 

[Majik1387]

There's nothing wonderful about Raimi's horrid attempt at a love story.