When Did 616 Hulk Start Killing?

[Mr. Green]

I'll repeat this because it seems everyone ignored me the first time: Neither Iron Man, nor director Hill say that Hulk killed anyone. It could be easily assumed that they were referring to those injured, seriously or otherwise. Obviously people have been hurt in his rampages. Therefore, no problem.

Actually... Iron Man (in NA: Illuminati): "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth."

And that pretty much sums it up. Does it make sense? Sure. Does it agree with the issues of the past 40+ years? No.

More importantly... Do Hulk fans want their favorite hero turned into somebody who accidently kill innocents everytime he gets pissed? And by the way, it is VERY rare for Hulk to just get mad and smash buildings.

When does Banner turn into Hulk? When there is an ENEMY to smash. Usually he doesn't smash buildings just because he wants to lash out.

 

[Mr. Green]

Thing to remember about the Hulk's many past rampages is they have usually come with time for people to get the hell outta the way and for other heroes or the military to move in (with them usually being the one's provoking the rampage in the first place). And yes, if he levelled a building with people in it there would be deaths but only the mindless Hulk (I think only seen twice?) would deliberately smash something without being aware of any innocents (or potential innocents) nearby. Even the gray Hulk, which is the nastiest of the 3 personalities he has possessed ('Devil' Hulk has remained in Bruce's head so far) still has enough morality inside him to avoid crossing that line.
So for me the Hulk should not be portrayed/ret-conned as having killed innocents in the past, even if they make it clear it's indirectly, and there's enough wriggle room in continuity to cover how such deaths could have been avoided.
In the end, for all the trouble he can bring the Hulk has been for the most part a very moral character, hell, the point of some stories in the past was to show that the childish persona is far more moral than those who would try to destroy him.

You hit the nail right on the head.

And for the record, I don't blame Bendis. I blame the editor, Tom Brevoort, and his assistant editors, Molly Lazer and Aubrey Sitterson for missing the obvious mistakes that any Hulk fan could see as rediculous.

 

[TheSumOfGod]

Actually... Iron Man (in NA: Illuminati): "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth."

And that pretty much sums it up. Does it make sense? Sure. Does it agree with the issues of the past 40+ years? No.

More importantly... Do Hulk fans want their favorite hero turned into somebody who accidently kill innocents everytime he gets pissed? And by the way, it is VERY rare for Hulk to just get mad and smash buildings.

When does Banner turn into Hulk? When there is an ENEMY to smash. Usually he doesn't smash buildings just because he wants to lash out.

Hulk is essentially the Marvel Universe's version of King Kong. Betty is Ann Darrow, and Kong steps on people from time to time. It's realistic.

 

[TheSumOfGod]

^Hey! 9,000!

 

[wobbly]

Hulk is essentially the Marvel Universe's version of King Kong. Betty is Ann Darrow, and Kong steps on people from time to time. It's realistic.

I dont really agree with the Kong analogy: Kong is an animal and as such doesn't have any morality to be judged by. Yes we can sympaphise with the big ape but at the end of the day theres no 'right or wrong' decision making going on in his brain, he reacts to his animal instincts.

On the more realistic front, maybe so, but if we are to apply this to the Hulk shouldn't it go with all the others too?
What I mean here is how realistic is it for say Spider-man to continually jump out of the way of a hail of bullets with no-one behind him ever being killed? Or when any big battle happens in a populated area, say with the FF, Avengers or X-Men, shouldn't the death toll, something the heroes can be held indirectly responsible for as realisticly there's no way someone like the Thing could know punching a baddie into a building isnt gonna kill someone, measure in the hundreds, if not thousands?

 

[TheSumOfGod]

I dont really agree with the Kong analogy: Kong is an animal and as such doesn't have any morality to be judged by. Yes we can sympaphise with the big ape but at the end of the day theres no 'right or wrong' decision making going on in his brain, he reacts to his animal instincts.

On the more realistic front, maybe so, but if we are to apply this to the Hulk shouldn't it go with all the others too?
What I mean here is how realistic is it for say Spider-man to continually jump out of the way of a hail of bullets with no-one behind him ever being killed? Or when any big battle happens in a populated area, say with the FF, Avengers or X-Men, shouldn't the death toll, something the heroes can be held indirectly responsible for as realisticly there's no way someone like the Thing could know punching a baddie into a building isnt gonna kill someone, measure in the hundreds, if not thousands?

Little known fact: Every time a bullet bounces off of Superman's chest, it hits a little old lady. It's true.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Alright, here is the timeline.

Pre-PAD Hulk has killed a total of 0 innocents.

During PAD's run all the way from 1987 to the end of the 90s, Hulk has
killed a total of 0 innocents.

From the end of PAD's run, there were a few writers until Paul Jenkins took over (one of which was Joe Casey). During that time Hulk has killed 0 innocents.

During Paul Jenkins' run Hulk killed 0 innocents.

During Bruce Jones' run, which I think rocked, the public backlashes against Hulk because there is video footage of Hulk killing a child in one of his rampages. Turns out he was just framed. When Doc Samson was asked about what he believed he said, "When was the last time you saw the Hulk kill anybody, let alone a kid?" (vol. 2, #36) Again 0 innocents killed in Jones' run.

After that, PAD took over again for a short time and the Hulk killed 0 innocents during this run.

Daniel Way took over during the Planet Hulk prelude (which sucked), and still, 0 innocents were killed.

In the Fantastic Four issues (#'s 533 - 535) Hulk goes out of his mind after he is exposed to a gamma bomb blast. I could see where they could get away with saying that he killed innocents here (and they DID say that in NA: Illuminati) but in the issues nothing is shown that would lead me to believe that innocents were killed during his rampage anyway.

Even if did show innocents killed, Iron Man said "How many this time?" Like it happens every week or something.

It is crap to say that Hulk has killed innocent people in the past when he hasn't. Accident or no, it hasn't. It is just completley against continuity and it hurts Hulk's character making him more like his Ultimate counterpart.

Hulk DOESN'T kill innocents, even accidently. What some writer wrote in that "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth" in reference to Spidey? You'd be like, "What the hell? Where did that come from?" That's what I'm feeling right now, and just because it would make sense doesn't mean it happened.

I love Planet Hulk and I thought NA: Illuminati was an awesome read (except for an obvious part), but they could have done this to where it fit with continuity. What the hell are editors DOING these days?

Very true!

It's funny, because any time change is instilled upon Spider-Man's status quo, the Spidey comics forum explodes with outrage, like a pack of feces hurling babboons, screaming about how much Marvel sucks, and this and that.

So....where's the support for The Hulk? Forty years of continuity just erased by Bendis' pen, and everyone's cool with that?

 

[The Question]

Thing to remember about the Hulk's many past rampages is they have usually come with time for people to get the hell outta the way and for other heroes or the military to move in (with them usually being the one's provoking the rampage in the first place). And yes, if he levelled a building with people in it there would be deaths but only the mindless Hulk (I think only seen twice?) would deliberately smash something without being aware of any innocents (or potential innocents) nearby. Even the gray Hulk, which is the nastiest of the 3 personalities he has possessed ('Devil' Hulk has remained in Bruce's head so far) still has enough morality inside him to avoid crossing that line.
So for me the Hulk should not be portrayed/ret-conned as having killed innocents in the past, even if they make it clear it's indirectly, and there's enough wriggle room in continuity to cover how such deaths could have been avoided.
In the end, for all the trouble he can bring the Hulk has been for the most part a very moral character, hell, the point of some stories in the past was to show that the childish persona is far more moral than those who would try to destroy him.

Also, ditto on the 'casualties' part. Though deaths was my first implication on reading that injuries also fits that term, so maybe we are jumping the gun a little.

Well, I think the Mindless Hulk's come out more often than twice. When he goes into a full on rage, the mindless starts to take over a bit. And really, this is not the first mention of The Hulk killing people or indangering innocent lives. In the issue of The Hulk where the Thunderbolts first apeared, he destroyed a local dam to create a distraction, allowing him to escape. He endangered the lives of thousands of people, and I'm sure at least a few died. And really, while the Savage Hulk has been shown to be a pretty nice guy, when he goes on a full blown rampage, he gets into a fight or flight mode. Do you honestly think none of the soldier's who went after him died fighting him?

 

[wobbly]

Well, I think the Mindless Hulk's come out more often than twice. When he goes into a full on rage, the mindless starts to take over a bit. And really, this is not the first mention of The Hulk killing people or indangering innocent lives. In the issue of The Hulk where the Thunderbolts first apeared, he destroyed a local dam to create a distraction, allowing him to escape. He endangered the lives of thousands of people, and I'm sure at least a few died. And really, while the Savage Hulk has been shown to be a pretty nice guy, when he goes on a full blown rampage, he gets into a fight or flight mode. Do you honestly think none of the soldier's who went after him died fighting him?

By mindless I mean when there's been no personality driving him. Afaik this has happened twice, the first when Banner's mind shut-down after being tormented by Nightmare (and Doc Strange exiled him to the 'crossroads') and the second when Banner was physically seperated from the Hulk. On both occasions he was indeed a creature of mindless rage quite capable of killing anything without a thought one way or another.

As for what I think on soldiers being killed whilst fighting him, like I said above, if we are gonna apply that kind of scrutiny to the Hulk, then do likewise across the board, you soon find many other heroes should also be accountable for a huge number of innocent deaths in their pasts.

 

[gildea]

What I mean here is how realistic is it for say Spider-man to continually jump out of the way of a hail of bullets with no-one behind him ever being killed?

has happened actually in the death of jean dewolfe.

 

[The Question]

By mindless I mean when there's been no personality driving him. Afaik this has happened twice, the first when Banner's mind shut-down after being tormented by Nightmare (and Doc Strange exiled him to the 'crossroads') and the second when Banner was physically seperated from the Hulk. On both occasions he was indeed a creature of mindless rage quite capable of killing anything without a thought one way or another.

I'm fairly certain there have been other occasions where he's completely lost it and reverted to a very animalistic mindset.

As for what I think on soldiers being killed whilst fighting him, like I said above, if we are gonna apply that kind of scrutiny to the Hulk, then do likewise across the board, you soon find many other heroes should also be accountable for a huge number of innocent deaths in their pasts.

Except, that's not the same thing. The Hulk has been atacked by the military on several occasions, and has fought back on many of those occasions. Throwing around tanks, tearing apart fighter jets, plowing through large numbers of soldiers, throwing around very large and heavy rocks in the direction of the atacking soldiers, and stuff like that. Some of them were bound to have gotten dead. Not quite the same as Spider-Man fighting the Rhino in Time's Square.

 

[gildea]

.
So....where's the support for The Hulk? Forty years of continuity just erased by Bendis' pen, and everyone's cool with that?

As pointed out though bendis was verrryyy careful to actually not to say the hulk had killed anyone.

 

[Not Jake]

It's funny, because any time change is instilled upon Spider-Man's status quo, the Spidey comics forum explodes with outrage, like a pack of feces hurling babboons, screaming about how much Marvel sucks, and this and that.

So....where's the support for The Hulk? Forty years of continuity just erased by Bendis' pen, and everyone's cool with that?

You realize that what you are calling for in support of Hulk is the exact reason why people here hate the Spidey comics forum

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

As pointed out though bendis was verrryyy careful to actually not to say the hulk had killed anyone.

"innocent people are dying because he walks the earth..."

'nuff said?

 

[The Question]

Bendis hasn't erased 40 years of continuity. There has only really been one occasion that said no one has ever died when The Hulk went on a major rampage or fought the government, and even then it was only one character's opinion, not a statement of fact.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

You realize that what you are calling for in support of Hulk is the exact reason why people here hate the Spidey comics forum

Not trying to rabble rouse, just making an observation out loud.

One thing i've noticed about the Marvel forum is that when something happens that causes fans here to complain, they also, for the most part, are fair in handing out praise where and when it is due, as opposed to other forums here at the hype who seem to be in constant "HATE" mode.

So im pretty comfortable in posing that question here, as im sure we'll get a fair dialogue going.

 

[Not Jake]

Well another thing to consider is that there are far more Spidey fans than Hulk fans, so there are fewer people who could possibly be offended


plus, the general conception is that the Hulk is a destructive monster, and even if it isn't true, most people believe the hulk has killed, at least accidentally. Even comics fans

Sooooo there are just fewer people who are not only Hulk fans but are "in the know" sufficently enough to raise hell

 

[wobbly]

I'm fairly certain there have been other occasions where he's completely lost it and reverted to a very animalistic mindset.

Except, that's not the same thing. The Hulk has been atacked by the military on several occasions, and has fought back on many of those occasions. Throwing around tanks, tearing apart fighter jets, plowing through large numbers of soldiers, throwing around very large and heavy rocks in the direction of the atacking soldiers, and stuff like that. Some of them were bound to have gotten dead. Not quite the same as Spider-Man fighting the Rhino in Time's Square.

If you are using realism as a justification for marvel ret-conning the Hulk into a killer then it is, for if that kind of realism is applied to all then pretty much any major battle between super-powered beings in a public place is gonna kill a lot of people.

 

[The Question]

It's not really retconning, since they've never said anything about it one way or the other very often in the past. Anyway, of course lots of people are going to be injured in major super fights, and some are going to be killed. However, most super battles aren't that major (compared to The Hulk), or don't last long enough to cause any major damage. However, if it's a super fight involving The Hulk and the Abomination, and it's in a populated area, I'd assume some people in the imediate area would get killed.

 

[gildea]

"innocent people are dying because he walks the earth..."

'nuff said?

Yeah I noticed that too however it seemed easily dismissable without a specific example, which wasn't concretely provided.

Its could easily be explained as something said in an argument (because even without a body count it's tough to argue he isn't a threat to innocent life).

I think that his been very carefully written to make us consider hulk a killer without actually making him into a killer (heck hulk used to threaten to kill people fairly regularly without actually doing it which really shouldn't be a problem for him).

 

[Mr. Green]

If you are using realism as a justification for marvel ret-conning the Hulk into a killer then it is, for if that kind of realism is applied to all then pretty much any major battle between super-powered beings in a public place is gonna kill a lot of people.

Exactly! And that kind of realism belongs in the Ultimate universe. What Hulk reader is going to complain about a lack of realism when the character himself is completely unrealism in his powers, origin, and feats?

Read the past year or so's Hulk comics. All of PAD's most recent stuff. There isn't A SINGLE SITUATION where Hulk had done ANYTHING to put INNOCENT lives in danger. (This is significant because Stark speaks with Director Hill as if he has killed innocents all the time, when in actuality, he never does. Even in the FF issues, you can't see any moment imparticular where Hulk was doing something that would endanger innocent lives.)

Couple more things:

When Hulk fought Thunderbolts for the first time, no Innocents died. Hulk didn't hurt any innocents and V said something like, "We just want to protect innocent lives." So Hulk simply gave them something to protect them from.

As far as them not saying not saying Hulk's never killed innocents in the past enough... A writers ENTIRE run was started by Hulk FINALLY messing up and burying a kid under a building. That was the FIRST time, and Bruce was a wanted man. It actually turned out that he was framed, giving him a clean record once more. That's all the evidence I need.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think that's it. I think it's just for the sense of logic. I mean, has The Hulk ever seemed like someone who would have some major moral code? Not to me. Hell, during the Infinity Gauntlet, Adam Warlock asked Wolverine and The Hulk to kill Thanos the first chance they had, and they both agreed, so it's hardly unprecidented. I think it really depends which personality you're talking about:



Bruce: Probably wouldn't kill anybody unless he was put into a situation where he had no choice.

Savage Hulk: If he was in a fight or having one of his temper tantrums, he'd probably kill some people by accident. But he wouldn't set out to and he'd feel really bad about it if they were innocents.

Joe Fixit: He'd kill a man in a fair fight. Or if he thought he was going to start a fair fight. Or if he bothered him. Or if there was a woman involved. Or if he was getting paid. Mostly when he's getting paid. Joe's a jackass without much in terms of moral fiber. Hell, he worked for the mob for a while.

Mindless Hulk: This one's the one I'd expect to have the highest body count. He's the nastyest personality that's ever gotten out. He's basically nothing but basic animal instinct and anger. If he's pissed off or feels threatened, he'll lash out at anything that moves. This is the personality you're usually dealing with when The Hulk's on a major rampage.

Devil Hulk: He's never gotten out before, but if he ever does, the body count would be huge. He'd kill and rape and canabalize people just for the hell of it.

Maestro likely has the devil Hulk personality and he has killed more people than any other Hulk.

 

[Marcdachamp]

Actually... Iron Man (in NA: Illuminati): "Innocent people are dying because he walks the Earth."

And that pretty much sums it up. Does it make sense? Sure. Does it agree with the issues of the past 40+ years? No.

More importantly... Do Hulk fans want their favorite hero turned into somebody who accidently kill innocents everytime he gets pissed? And by the way, it is VERY rare for Hulk to just get mad and smash buildings.

When does Banner turn into Hulk? When there is an ENEMY to smash. Usually he doesn't smash buildings just because he wants to lash out.

They could be dying due to wounds inflicted. Or Iron Man is assuming. Either way, it seems Bendis was vague enough that it could be read either way.

 

[BrianWilly]

Exactly! And that kind of realism belongs in the Ultimate universe. What Hulk reader is going to complain about a lack of realism when the character himself is completely unrealism in his powers, origin, and feats?

I don't think tackling the possibility of someone dying when the Hulk inadvertantly knocks over a building should for whatever reason be reserved for the Ultimate universe, I think that those sorts of questions are perfectly valid and in-place in the 616 universe. The Ultimate universe isn't some "sophisticated," "mature" version of the regular universe; it's just another point of view. There's no reason why the 616 universe has to be dumbed down for people who don't like asking difficult questions.

The fictional world of comics takes a lot of liberties with scientific facts and laws of the universe, but the physics and matters of the real world still come into play, especially when you bring matters of morality into the mix. People still might die and will die. At what point does "taking liberties with reality" become flat-out "not real at all"? The truth of the matter is that when you knock over a whole building, someone is going to die. Period. Especially if buildings keep getting knocked over, over and over and over again by the same guy.

I can maybe believe someone like Juggernaut having never caused any deaths in his career since he is 100% in control of his own actions, but the Hulk isn't. He's called mindless for a reason. Even experienced superheroes like Spider-Man and Captain America have to intentionally go out of their way and make an effort to keep ordinary citizens safe in midst of one of their scuffles; it's hard work, and sometimes they even fail at it. The Hulk might have that mentality some of the time, but definitely not all of the time.

I'm just as ready to rag on Bendis for his various many sins as the next guy, but I can't fault him for this specific choice of words. I mean, he's looking at something logically and reasonably and...that's a bad thing now? I wouldn't want to read comics where everything is painted in a false light just so we can keep some innocent, naive image of the Hulk.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I just don't agree this whole argument of collateral damage as per what has been said eloquently above, any battle with super beings in poulated area would have caused deaths of innocents or is it you take the Hulk to be so much more powerful than others like Thor who was incidentally a member of the Avenger who did at times fight in poulated areas.

And excuse me but this is not reality and nothing in it could be even seen as remotely real. This is a fantasy world so I personally can see how the Hulk who originally had the mind of a child, not a monster, could have not killed people.

Plus as Mr. Green said most of Jones runmade it clear that Hulk had never killed.