Where did DC/WB go wrong? - Part 1

[roach]

I absolutely hated that quote.

"Your ancestors called it magic, but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same."

IMO it didn't make sense for Thor to say that

Jane:"He says he's Thor the god of thunder. Is that possible?"
Dr Selvig:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

 

[The Morningstar]

Or maybe it's because he fell from the sky in a worm-hole? Religious people question their faith, scientists sometimes questions their... knowledge of science? lol

 

[The Morningstar]

I think it's safe to say both her and the Avengers were a sure thing during IM2 given they are smack bang in the middle of the movie.

How was anything Avengers related smack bang in the middle of the movie? I see people making these claims about IM2 but they never explain it.

There wasn't a single Avengers reference until the final third of the film, and that was a jokey line about a "superhero boy band".

Coulson mentions he has to do something in New Mexico, obviously referencing Thor.

An appearance by Cap's shield.

Then in the second from last scene of the film we have Stark talking to Fury about the Avengers.

None of these things impede on the main story of the movie. The idea that IM2 was an Avengers advert is utter, utter ********. Unless someone can counter me on these points, which hasn't happened since i've been here which is nearly a year...

And no, the involvement of SHIELD doesn't count. A shady government agency getting involved with a guy like Tony Stark makes sense. Just so happens that in the Marvel Universe there is a shady government agency called SHIELD.

This is not to say IM2 isn't flawed. It is, very much so. But again, none of those flaws have anything to do with the Avengers.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

IMO it didn't make sense for Thor to say that

Jane:"He says he's Thor the god of thunder. Is that possible?"
Dr Selvig:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Exactly. It made no sense to me for Thor to make a statement of that nature to Jane.

Or maybe it's because he fell from the sky in a worm-hole? Religious people question their faith, scientists sometimes questions their... knowledge of science? lol

Both fields are flawed and limited because they were established by the hand/mind of man. The Earth is not 6,000 years old, and Einstein died thinking that Tachyonic Neutrinos didn't exist.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

wholeheartedly disagree....IMO there were no insane leaps of logic in GL.

Not sure what you mean by that, I mean the premise itself is an "insane leap of logic". Both films make a lot of the same mistakes. Green Lantern and Wolverine have several scenes that abruptly come out of nowhere, Green Lantern does it throughout the entire film actually. To me what edges out Wolverine is the two lead actors. They were a very strong centerpiece of that film. Also, in my opinion, the underlying basic premise of Wolverine is good, but they do an absolutely sh***y job telling it. Green Lantern can barely claim to even have a story at all. It's just "this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then...oh crap, we have to end this...the end".

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

IMO it didn't make sense for Thor to say that

Jane:"He says he's Thor the god of thunder. Is that possible?"
Dr Selvig:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Magicians don't think of what they do as magic, only the audience does. It makes absolute sense that Thor fully accepts what he is and what he does as not magical.

 

[Micromind]

First half of IM 2 -it was about Iron man / Tony Stark and Vanko / Whiplash but Scar Jo makes an appearance as an under cover Shield agent. (Note: beginning of Avergers related character shoe horned in)

Second half: Vanko meets hammer, Tony falls ill, becomes drunk, does some silly stuff, the movie drags until nick Fury Fury hints at how to create new alloy (Vibranium ?) as power source. Hints about Avengers.

Third Act: All Shield agents : Colson, Black Widow, Nick Fury assist Stark.

 

[The Guard]

Not sure what you mean by that, I mean the premise itself is an "insane leap of logic". Both films make a lot of the same mistakes. Green Lantern and Wolverine have several scenes that abruptly come out of nowhere, Green Lantern does it throughout the entire film actually.

What do you mean scenes that come out of nowhere? Can you provide some examples?

Green Lantern can barely claim to even have a story at all. It's just "this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then...oh crap, we have to end this...the end".

Green Lantern has a very clear storyline. It's just not a very deep, or particularly complex one.

 

[The Morningstar]

The cafe scene where Tony first meets Fury is the beginning of the final act. And none of them assist him, Fury basically just gives him a kick up the arse and tells him he needs to sort himself out because the world needs him. Yes it's kinda deus ex machina-ry and clunky. But it also allows for a great character moment for Stark where he realises that his father did in fact love him.

 

[roach]

Magicians don't think of what they do as magic, only the audience does. It makes absolute sense that Thor fully accepts what he is and what he does as not magical.

You are talking about stage magicians...they pretend to be something they aren't.
Do you think Gandalf believes he is practicing magic or science?

 

[roach]

Not sure what you mean by that, I mean the premise itself is an "insane leap of logic". Both films make a lot of the same mistakes. Green Lantern and Wolverine have several scenes that abruptly come out of nowhere, Green Lantern does it throughout the entire film actually. To me what edges out Wolverine is the two lead actors. They were a very strong centerpiece of that film. Also, in my opinion, the underlying basic premise of Wolverine is good, but they do an absolutely sh***y job telling it. Green Lantern can barely claim to even have a story at all. It's just "this happened, then this happened, then this happened, then...oh crap, we have to end this...the end".

there is a difference between a fantastic premise and an insane leap of logic
A man receiving a power ring to be a space cop is a fantastic premise....Shooting someone in the head with an adamantium bullet to make them have amnesia when that person can heal from any wound...insane leap of logic

 

[DrCosmic]

The cafe scene where Tony first meets Fury is the beginning of the final act. And none of them assist him, Fury basically just gives him a kick up the arse and tells him he needs to sort himself out because the world needs him. Yes it's kinda deus ex machina-ry and clunky. But it also allows for a great character moment for Stark where he realises that his father did in fact love him.

That's an assist, and it's my least favorite part of the film, that SHIELD comes in and cuts the tension that has been building into bits. The film, imho would have been superior with Tony finding the tape himself and limping through the element creation process. But that was sacrificed to make Avengers better.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

You are talking about stage magicians...they pretend to be something they aren't.
Do you think Gandalf believes he is practicing magic or science?

I'm talking about both. Gandalf, Dr. Strange, or any "magician" you could name would have to, by being a practicioner, intuitively understand why what he does produces the result it does, even if his explanation is unintelligible to others. The whole invention of magic in the human psyche is in fact simply an outgrowth of a less than full understanding of seemingly random events. In order for Gandalf to conjure magic he has to in some form control the outcomes of his inputs, meaning he understands the rules of magic whereas others do not. For him to exert any form of control whatsoever would assume that magic, like science, obeys laws and rules. There has to be something, for example, that ensures Thor's hammer produces thunder and lightning instead of sunshine and flowers, or else every time he used it he'd be uncertain of the reaction. Yet for Thor that device and his world has enough predictability for him to live and survive in it, and also for him to be able to modify aspects of his world, even weaponize this. All of this is impossible if magic exists outside of a causal reality. Hence why Thor's approach actually makes a ton of sense. It's not magic to Thor because to Thor it's his everyday reality, a reality which he has a very firm grasp on that "our scientists" do not.

 

[DrCosmic]

Magicians don't think of what they do as magic, only the audience does. It makes absolute sense that Thor fully accepts what he is and what he does as not magical.

Except he thinks of technology as magic, which is why he says they're the same thing. The word doesn't mean the same thing to him as it does to us. In the same way, stage magicians refer to what they do as magic, but they don't define in the same way we do.

there is a difference between a fantastic premise and an insane leap of logic
A man receiving a power ring to be a space cop is a fantastic premise....Shooting someone in the head with an adamantium bullet to make them have amnesia when that person can heal from any wound...insane leap of logic

True that, but honestly... mutants are a fantastic premise, and suddenly being able to control a construct made by someone else's mind, as Movie Hal did when he defeated Hammond, is an insane leap of logic. GL also didn't have the advantage of ppl already caring about the character... but it sure acted like they did, and spent all its character development time on the throwawa villain. Dear goodness it was a bad script that would have worked great in a comic book.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

True that, but honestly... mutants are a fantastic premise, and suddenly being able to control a construct made by someone else's mind, as Movie Hal did when he defeated Hammond, is an insane leap of logic. GL also didn't have the advantage of ppl already caring about the character... but it sure acted like they did, and spent all its character development time on the throwaway villain. Dear goodness it was a bad script that would have worked great in a comic book.

Wasn't Geoff John's heavily involved in the script because I can see your point about it being more of a comic book script than a movie script?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

First half of IM 2 -it was about Iron man / Tony Stark and Vanko / Whiplash but Scar Jo makes an appearance as an under cover Shield agent. (Note: beginning of Avergers related character shoe horned in)

Second half: Vanko meets hammer, Tony falls ill, becomes drunk, does some silly stuff, the movie drags until nick Fury Fury hints at how to create new alloy (Vibranium ?) as power source. Hints about Avengers.

Third Act: All Shield agents : Colson, Black Widow, Nick Fury assist Stark.

The second act definitely slows down the movie, unfortunately.

The hate for IM2 is completely hyperbolic though. Batman Begins has a lousey second act, ditches it's best villain for the majority of the film, and the Mr. Earle subplot is pointless and full of holes. Yet those things are brushed aside. Although, I feel like because BB was an introduction film it's gets more of a pass because the sequel eliminated many of the hang ups I have with the first one.

 

[Lord]

Green Lantern: Secret Origin, also written by Geoff Johns, was a better origin story for the character than the movie.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

SHIELD was all over the first Iron Man too.

I also don't see the argument that the Marvel films are just advertisements for The Avengers, although I concede that Iron Man 2 has the most to do with it.

I've seen people say that Thor & Captain America are the same and I really don't understand that. They have nothing to do with the Avengers outside of a comment now and then and an easter egg after the credits.

 

[chiefchirpa]

There was nothing realistic about Thor, other than one of the settings featured modern Earth. However, do continue. It's entertaining to watch you grasp for straws and try wiggle out a sane argument without trying to sound like a fanboy. Let's see what else you can pull out of your ass when I simply tell you that your logic does not compute. That there is nothing realistic about Frost Giants, a Thunder God, Asgard, Mjolnir, a BiFrost bridge, etc moreso than traveling through Wormholes, a Power Ring, an Intergalactic Police Force, etc.

You have reading comprehension problem, as always. I said they have heavily modified Thor from pure fantasy in the old comics to something that comes out of sci-fi or more believable fantasy. Thor in the movie is firmly set to be an inter dimensional alien. That's been said, Thor is still a fantasy movie as with other superhero films. It's just that the fantastical elements in Thor has been tempered down a notch or two from the source comics.

 

[Rockstar]

According to Rotten Tomatoes, Wolverine = Fantastic Four II. 37%

and

Green Lantern = Fantastic Four. 27%

All bad films.

 

[roach]

my rankings

Fantastic Four
Green Lantern
Wolverine

 

[chiefchirpa]

SHIELD was all over the first Iron Man too.

I also don't see the argument that the Marvel films are just advertisements for The Avengers, although I concede that Iron Man 2 has the most to do with it.

I've seen people say that Thor & Captain America are the same and I really don't understand that. They have nothing to do with the Avengers outside of a comment now and then and an easter egg after the credits.

Iron Man 2 is the Green Lantern movie of Marvel Cinematic Universe. The difference between them is that the cast members prepared for Avengers will be in Avengers, while cast for JLA like Angela Bassett is in Limbo and most probably will not be hired for further DC movies.

 

[chiefchirpa]

my rankings

Fantastic Four
Green Lantern
Wolverine

Same order with me

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I never saw Green Lantern, but Wolverine was way better than Fantastic Four. At least it had Hugh Jackman & Liev Schrieber and some good action scenes. It was terrible, don't get me wrong, but it was better than Fantastic Four. The only good thing about Fantastic Four was Johnny Storm.

 

[chiefchirpa]

Baraka-pool is the travesty which lowers down Wolverine point. I'm sure there were more, but it seems that Fox don't give a damn on the source materials. Acting-wise, Wolverine is exemplary.