Where did DC/WB go wrong? - Part 1

[Breogan]

its the years of only focusing on batman and superman. if they payed attention to all their characters, then they could have done a JL movie in the 90's or early 2000's

2008 - Iron Man post-credits sequence introduces Sam Jackson/Nick Fury and establishes that Marvel already has a well rooted vision of a shared universe in production, "Real" Humans, Gods, and Monsters can and will exist together.

2008 - Meanwhile: Interview Nolan is espousing that Batman character doesn't lend itself to that, he has to be and see himself as the only hero in his universe to work. And WB proudly tows that pov line of thinking and wears it like a badge(of cluelessness(although some fans tow that same clueless line of thought)) throughout their movies.

Beginning of time - 2008 - Every fan familiar with Batman Superman already knows -Of-course that is how Batman sees himself! So treat Superman like an intruder to his universe and POV, actually give Bruce Wayne that exact attitude towards Superman's arrival in "his real" universe, that's the conflict, that's true to the character, that breaks down his whole POV, he has to rethink himself, and that is the freakin post DK movie! Set it up!

2011- Thor - Literally "bridges" the supposed impossible gap between the ground of science and the island of mythology, and unapologeticlly and convincingly delivers an arrogant "God" at once cursed to walk among humans, then willing finding strength in their humanity to survive against a god of chaos and war. Marvel has produced the ultimate Wonder Woman vs Ares movie using a man.
Meanwhile WB with Whedon canned, and their head up their own ass declares we have no idea how to do a Wonder Woman movie, the modern god among humans concept alludes us and would never work today.

2011 - Green Lantern (with the worst script ever put to paper, desperately attaches it to a disinterested director, and for whole lot of other reasons bombs) - no post credit scene of silhouette of Batman at computer screen with file open on Hal Jordan, and watching green light shoot across city sky, and a "John Doe"* witness in an out of place fedora and trenchcoat watching anonymously from the crowd.

2012 - MOS ends- No post credit scene of silhouette of Batman at computer screen with open file on Clark Kent, and images of alien ships ...blue-red blurr on screen and a "John Doe"* witness in an out of place fedora and trenchcoat watching anonymously from the crowd.

2012 - TDKR ends- with Batman existing in his own grim dark bubble - No possibility of a bigger universe existing. ...No post credit scene of "John Doe"* man in fedora suddenly standing right behind him in the Batcave.

2012 - Avengers, Joss Whedon rips the ultimate modern Justice League tale (Kingdom Come) - Powers that be threatened by unpredictable, volatile "heroes" Super-tech/Gods/&Monsters all dwelling among us. Their power, their egos, their duplicity! The order is given .... nuke them all. Super "Hero" and "Villain" alike.
Most fans don't even notice, as he delivers the biggest FU in the universe to DC/WB.

Ending it with the heroes chiling in a restaurant dive, - Not without sacrifice, but we survived that...now we are all family.

2013 - Sandiego Comic-Con half decade later Warner Bros. panel- Instead of sticking to their clueless stance, finally admit and announce Oh! we will do it so Batman treats it like Superman and others would be intruders/invaders to his very "real" grim dark universe, and a threat to earth - .... what every fan already knew 5 to 30 years before them. And now with zero build up and anticipation they will outrageously cram it all into one movie, to ridiculously try and play catch up.

*If you don't know who this obviously will be, turn in your superherohypester license.

 

[Micromind]

Green Lantern 2011.

That was supposed to be start of a new unified DC movie verse, and they did not plan it properly.

 

[Flint Marko]

Good summary moondragon. Not sure why some people continue to deny that WB has been floundering with their DC properties, it's more or less indisputable.

 

[DrCosmic]

They went wrong when they waited.

Back in 2008, when it became clear what Marvel was hitting on they had the chance to either make that happen or continue on the path of solo hero trilogies they were on. What they did was wait to see how Marvel would do.

If they had chosen the Nolan path, they could have had a Sucker Punch-less Snyder doing his Superman trilogy the way he's always dreamed, without having to set up a Justice League or even be tied to Nolan. There were options aplenty in terms of Nolan-like talent generally sticking to indies. A JJ Abrams Green Lantern before he got on Star Trek? Geeez. Nicolas Windg Refn's Wonder Woman trilogy with Christina Hendricks and Ryan Gosling would be a sight to behold. (EDIT: I forgot Whedon's WW, my bad. They could have had Whedon writing and directing Wonder Woman... and honestly, Avengers may not even have been a major factor in all honesty.) These could have all been TDK-level in terms of cultural currency. DC could have played each of their heroes as equal to the Avengers in terms of appeal. Then in a few years, they could play that card using the Multiverse to cash in. In fact, if they had been incredibly clever, they could have used the TV shows for all the minor heroes as they've done with Arrow and Flash setting up Crisis and cash that in before Avengers 3 and take the team up crown with no contenders, bringing back Bale after a 5-10 year break, Hendricks after a briefer break, all with groundbreaking trilogies under their belt. Heck, if it were me, it would have been a once in a lifetime event, filmed all at once, Lord of the Rings style.

The alternate way, they would have had to override Nolan, but they could have fast tracked Superman and or Green Lantern to come out 2010, 2011, with Bvs doing 2012 or 2013 and not having to play catch up so badly, with the pressure that comes with that.

But they waited until Marvel was all but proven before even starting, and they did it in almost the most copycat way possible. That's where they went wrong. Indecision, lack of independent creative thought. Lack of commitment to anything but what Marvel was already doing.

 

[mat-chow]

...I think I just wandered into the wrong thread. I'll show myself out.

 

[paulogonza]

They went wrong when they waited.

Back in 2008, when it became clear what Marvel was hitting on they had the chance to either make that happen or continue on the path of solo hero trilogies they were on. What they did was wait to see how Marvel would do.

If they had chosen the Nolan path, they could have had a Sucker Punch-less Snyder doing his Superman trilogy the way he's always dreamed, without having to set up a Justice League or even be tied to Nolan. There were options aplenty in terms of Nolan-like talent generally sticking to indies. A JJ Abrams Green Lantern before he got on Star Trek? Geeez. Nicolas Windg Refn's Wonder Woman trilogy with Christina Hendricks and Ryan Gosling would be a sight to behold. (EDIT: I forgot Whedon's WW, my bad. They could have had Whedon writing and directing Wonder Woman... and honestly, Avengers may not even have been a major factor in all honesty.) These could have all been TDK-level in terms of cultural currency. DC could have played each of their heroes as equal to the Avengers in terms of appeal. Then in a few years, they could play that card using the Multiverse to cash in. In fact, if they had been incredibly clever, they could have used the TV shows for all the minor heroes as they've done with Arrow and Flash setting up Crisis and cash that in before Avengers 3 and take the team up crown with no contenders, bringing back Bale after a 5-10 year break, Hendricks after a briefer break, all with groundbreaking trilogies under their belt. Heck, if it were me, it would have been a once in a lifetime event, filmed all at once, Lord of the Rings style.

The alternate way, they would have had to override Nolan, but they could have fast tracked Superman and or Green Lantern to come out 2010, 2011, with Bvs doing 2012 or 2013 and not having to play catch up so badly, with the pressure that comes with that.

But they waited until Marvel was all but proven before even starting, and they did it in almost the most copycat way possible. That's where they went wrong. Indecision, lack of independent creative thought. Lack of commitment to anything but what Marvel was already doing.

i agree with every word you said

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

There's no way in hell WB would have ever green-lighted a Refn made Wonder Woman movie. I like Refn, but he would have shredded the source material more than Aronofsky's Batman Year One.

 

[Tec15]

...I think I just wandered into the wrong thread. I'll show myself out.

Wise policy.

 

[jmc]

Good summary moondragon. Not sure why some people continue to deny that WB has been floundering with their DC properties, it's more or less indisputable.

It's because it's not their main priority.

 

[Docker2.0]

Green Lantern 2011.

That was supposed to be start of a new unified DC movie verse, and they did not plan it properly.

Good summary moondragon. Not sure why some people continue to deny that WB has been floundering with their DC properties, it's more or less indisputable.

Shhhh! You will be labeled a "hater" for not being blind. I honestly think the way they are building this new DCCU is a mistake. Making all their heroes dark, cramming Batman into a Superman film when we really don't know this Superman that well.............I'm not liking the direction they are taking. I do think BvS will make money but not sold on a JLA movie going this route. All these years they spent building up Superman and Batman but no one else is going to come back and bite them because I've been on record as saying that Wonder Woman is nowhere near as popular as people think she is. But we will find out, won't we?

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

It's because it's not their main priority.

It wasn't their main priority because they have idea how to make their own characters who aren't Bruce Wayne work. They cancelled Justice League Mortal, Wonder Woman, Flash, and others, but haven't had faith in it to greenlight them, especially since their one attempt at a non-Batman or Superman movie (Green Lantern, of course) bit them in the ass due to their failure to understand the needs of their own franchise. Saying it's not their own priority is the same as not having faith in their superhero projects to succeed.

 

[Human Torch]

2008 - Iron Man post-credits sequence introduces Sam Jackson/Nick Fury and establishes that Marvel already has a well rooted vision of a shared universe in production, "Real" Humans, Gods, and Monsters can and will exist together.

2008 - Meanwhile: Interview Nolan is espousing that Batman character doesn't lend itself to that, he has to be and see himself as the only hero in his universe to work. And WB proudly tows that pov line of thinking and wears it like a badge(of cluelessness(although some fans tow that same clueless line of thought)) throughout their movies.

Beginning of time - 2008 - Every fan familiar with Batman Superman already knows -Of-course that is how Batman sees himself! So treat Superman like an intruder to his universe and POV, actually give Bruce Wayne that exact attitude towards Superman's arrival in "his real" universe, that's the conflict, that's true to the character, that breaks down his whole POV, he has to rethink himself, and that is the freakin post DK movie! Set it up!

2011- Thor - Literally "bridges" the supposed impossible gap between the ground of science and the island of mythology, and unapologeticlly and convincingly delivers an arrogant "God" at once cursed to walk among humans, then willing finding strength in their humanity to survive against a god of chaos and war. Marvel has produced the ultimate Wonder Woman vs Ares movie using a man.
Meanwhile WB with Whedon canned, and their head up their own ass declares we have no idea how to do a Wonder Woman movie, the modern god among humans concept alludes us and would never work today.

2011 - Green Lantern (with the worst script ever put to paper, desperately attaches it to a disinterested director, and for whole lot of other reasons bombs) - no post credit scene of silhouette of Batman at computer screen with file open on Hal Jordan, and watching green light shoot across city sky, and a "John Doe"* witness in an out of place fedora and trenchcoat watching anonymously from the crowd.

2012 - MOS ends- No post credit scene of silhouette of Batman at computer screen with open file on Clark Kent, and images of alien ships ...blue-red blurr on screen and a "John Doe"* witness in an out of place fedora and trenchcoat watching anonymously from the crowd.

2012 - TDKR ends- with Batman existing in his own grim dark bubble - No possibility of a bigger universe existing. ...No post credit scene of "John Doe"* man in fedora suddenly standing right behind him in the Batcave.

2012 - Avengers, Joss Whedon rips the ultimate modern Justice League tale (Kingdom Come) - Powers that be threatened by unpredictable, volatile "heroes" Super-tech/Gods/&Monsters all dwelling among us. Their power, their egos, their duplicity! The order is given .... nuke them all. Super "Hero" and "Villain" alike.
Most fans don't even notice, as he delivers the biggest FU in the universe to DC/WB.

Ending it with the heroes chiling in a restaurant dive, - Not without sacrifice, but we survived that...now we are all family.

2013 - Sandiego Comic-Con half decade later Warner Bros. panel- Instead of sticking to their clueless stance, finally admit and announce Oh! we will do it so Batman treats it like Superman and others would be intruders/invaders to his very "real" grim dark universe, and a threat to earth - .... what every fan already knew 5 to 30 years before them. And now with zero build up and anticipation they will outrageously cram it all into one movie, to ridiculously try and play catch up.

*If you don't know who this obviously will be, turn in your superherohypester license.

 

[jmc]

It wasn't their main priority because they have idea how to make their own characters who aren't Bruce Wayne work. They cancelled Justice League Mortal, Wonder Woman, Flash, and others, but haven't had faith in it to greenlight them, especially since their one attempt at a non-Batman or Superman movie (Green Lantern, of course) bit them in the ass due to their failure to understand the needs of their own franchise. Saying it's not their own priority is the same as not having faith in their superhero projects to succeed.

The structure of WB is such that they don't have the reliance on superheroes. The truth is there was never any urgency on their part to 'get it right' because of that structure and because the genre wasn't nearly as lucrative as it is now. The only reason there's a concerted effort now from WB, and other studios for that matter, is because the genre is in a golden period and they are trying to capitalise on it. Once it dies down WB will move on to the next hollywood fad and they will continue making movies as they always have. WB have never had, and will never have the need to rely on superheroes, ever. A lot of those films were in development hell because there wasn't a need for them to be ready. There is now which is why WB have come out all guns blazing in recent months.

 

[Flint Marko]

It's because it's not their main priority.

As someone has already mentioned, clearly they have attempted it in the past on multiple occasions and got cold feet for a multitude of reasons. How can you say that wasn't a mistake? Clearly there has been an audience for it, and the fact that they are just now jumping on the bandwagon all guns blazing shows that they don't have it together, despite what some around here would like to argue.
You could argue "hindsight 20/20" but honestly, the fact that a superhero movie with a talking raccoon and a walking tree have made 630 million and counting shows that it's more than doable. They're playing catchup, and as the one studio in Hollywood with the rights to a complete library of iconic characters with the financial backing to do whatever they want, they have no excuse. Essentially, they are the rabbit in "tortoise and the hare".

 

[jmc]

As someone has already mentioned, clearly they have attempted it in the past on multiple occasions and got cold feet for a multitude of reasons. Are you going to try and say that wasn't a mistake? Clearly there has been an audience for it, and the fact that they are just now jumping on the bandwagon all guns blazing shows that they don't have it together, despite what some around here would like to argue.

How is it a mistake? And who gives a flying hoot about whether they got cold feet? As much as we all complained to no end the fact of the matter remains they weren't in a position where they needed to produce superhero content. Now things have changed with Marvel, Sony, and Fox putting huge efforts into the market. And who cares if it's bandwagon jumping? The history of Hollywood is littered with bandwagon jumping by studios, let's not make out what WB are doing here isn't anything remotely different to what studios have done for decades. Something becomes a big hit, others try to emulate it, it's happened before, it's happening now, it will happen again. Some of you need to wake up to the fact WB has, and never will be, a superhero studio. For christ sake get over it.

 

[Flint Marko]

How is it a mistake? And who gives a flying hoot about whether they got cold feet? As much as we all complained to no end the fact of the matter remains they weren't in a position where they needed to produce superhero content. Now things have changed with Marvel, Sony, and Fox putting huge efforts into the market. And who cares if it's bandwagon jumping? The history of Hollywood is littered with bandwagon jumping by studios, let's not make out what WB are doing here isn't anything remotely different to what studios have done for decades. Something becomes a big hit, others try to emulate it, it's happened before, it's happening now, it will happen again. Some of you need to wake up to the fact WB has, and never will be, a superhero studio. For christ sake get over it.

No one here has argued that WB should be a superhero studio. That argument is tired and paper thin. We get that they have other properties, that is missing the point entirely.
It's a mistake because they missed out on the opportunity to be the first ones bringing in the "superhero golden age" you mentioned previously. They are the one studio in hollywood with complete access to the entirety of DC's libraries and the financial backing to do with it whatever they pleased. Batman and Superman are the two most iconic superheroes in the world, yet they are playing catch up to what started out as an independent film studio. Once again: giving them a pass because they had other movies to make is missing the point entirely. The tale of the tortoise and the hare comes to mind.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

What I'm taking away from this is that I shouldn't have any hope with WB at least trying to attempt a shared universe.

Sure they've done nothing in the past to give me any sort of proof that they could pull it off successfully, but I'm not gonna condemn them before any of their ideas are brought to life. I'm too invested in these characters that I genuinely enjoy to give up on it so soon.

Also, I'd rather have what they're giving us than not having anything at all.

 

[Lantern Venom]

You can contrast WB and Marvel Studios with one word: belief. 10 years ago, no one could have predicted Marvel's takeover of pop culture. Critics said a CGI Hulk would never work, Thor was too weird, Captain America was knock-off of Superman, and Iron Man was a 2nd-tier character that would be lucky to see the big screen. Yet Marvel understood that characters with histories of 40 years or more (at the time) endured for a reason. Marvel Studios strode into the mainstream spotlight with confidence and a clear vision. The rest is box office history.

Conversely, WB is quite late to the party. Forums like SHH should be talking about whether or not the Flash/Green Lantern/Wonder Woman trilogy box sets are worth the price. We should be talking about the Cyborg, Black Canary, and Martian Manhunter projects. We should be debating the merits of Superman stopping a Parallax-infected Hal Jordan, which leads to the Superman Red/Superman Blue storyline for Justice League 3. Instead, it's 2014 and the first JL movie is still in production.

I certainly hope that the GA's thirst for super hero movies lasts another decade or more. If not, comic book fans might one day look back at WB and wonder why the studio wasted the CBM boom period.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Marvel has it's own movie studio, they can basically do whatever they want.

Warners should have their own separate department for DC projects as someone else mentioned. No one here is making excuses for them, we just simply want them to succeed. Just because some of us like to keep a positive mindset regarding DC films doesn't mean that we're all a bunch of blind fools sipping on WB's kool aid.

This thread just looks to me like a mixture of people who are disappointed in WB's treatment of these characters as well as a few marvel die hards looking to flex their muscles.

 

[jmc]

No one here has argued that WB should be a superhero studio. That argument is tired and paper thin. We get that they have other properties, that is missing the point entirely.
It's a mistake because they missed out on the opportunity to be the first ones bringing in the "superhero golden age" you mentioned previously. They are the one studio in hollywood with complete access to the entirety of DC's libraries and the financial backing to do with it whatever they pleased. Batman and Superman are the two most iconic superheroes in the world, yet they are playing catch up to what started out as an independent film studio. Once again: giving them a pass because they had other movies to make is missing the point entirely. The tale of the tortoise and the hare comes to mind.

Who effing cares? Seriously, what's the bloody hangup about this non-issue? So they didn't create the movies then, they are making them now, am I missing something? They were timid, but they're not now, we're getting a bunch of superhero movies and TV shows from them. Jesus christ, stop your effing complaining and move the hell on.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Who effing cares? Seriously, what's the bloody hangup about this non-issue? So they didn't create the movies then, they are making them now, am I missing something? They were timid, but they're not now, we're getting a bunch of superhero movies and TV shows from them. Jesus christ, stop your effing complaining and move the hell on.

In 2024, we might all be able to look back and say that WB dragging their feet on the DCCU was no big deal because our dreams came to fruition. Then again, comic book fans know all too well that sometimes bubbles pop.

 

[Flint Marko]

Who effing cares? Seriously, what's the bloody hangup about this non-issue? So they didn't create the movies then, they are making them now, am I missing something? They were timid, but they're not now, we're getting a bunch of superhero movies and TV shows from them. Jesus christ, stop your effing complaining and move the hell on.

It's clear we are just not going to see eye to eye, so maybe it's best we just drop this.

Marvel has it's own movie studio, they can basically do whatever they want.

Warners should have their own separate department for DC projects as someone else mentioned. No one here is making excuses for them, we just simply want them to succeed. Just because some of us like to keep a positive mindset regarding DC films doesn't mean that we're all a bunch of blind fools sipping on WB's kool aid.

This thread just looks to me like a mixture of people who are disappointed in WB's treatment of these characters as well as a few marvel die hards looking to flex their muscles.

I'm not a Marvel die hard, I'm a fan of the genre and I think Marvel has been the best studio in recent years to produce superhero films when, if we're being honest, they have no reason to be. It really is that simple. I grew up loving every character in a cape, the company pissing contests be damned.

 

[jmc]

Comic book fans are spoiled beyond belief nowaday. If anything the studios catering to their needs is having a negative effect on movie making in general because less emphasis is being placed on original movies. So all of you whining about WB being late to the game, suck it up and and be grateful you're getting anything at all in the first place.

 

[super85]

I have the same take on this as jmc.

DC/WB is making several TV-shows , more than ever, and also in production is Batman VS Superman that sounds and looks (so far ) really cool.

I don't really get the big deal about this either.

 

[Lantern Venom]

It's clear we are just not going to see eye to eye, so maybe it's best we just drop this.

I'm not a Marvel die hard, I'm a fan of the genre and I think Marvel has been the best studio in recent years to produce superhero films when, if we're being honest, they have no reason to be. It really is that simple. I grew up loving every character in a cape, the company pissing contests be damned.

Co-signed. Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc--I've backed them all.

Comic book fans are spoiled beyond belief nowaday. If anything the studios catering to their needs is having a negative effect on movie making in general because less emphasis is being placed on original movies. So all of you whining about WB being late to the game, suck it and and be grateful you're getting anything at all in the first place.

I can see your point to a degree, which is why I'm forgiving of many CBMs that haven't been huge BO/critical hits that are currently in my Blu-ray/DVD collection. I couldn't have possibly imagined the output of CBMs that we now have when I was nursing mid-90s hope that one day I would see a Spider-man theatrical release. Even the New 52 DC animated movies would have been inconceivable to me back then. However, it's still perfectly fair to wonder why WB has chosen to sew DC seeds so sparingly in such rich soil.