Which film is better? Thor or Thor: the Dark World?

[Ragnaroknroll]

yeah, many people are the same way. I'm a fan and LOVE TDW more than Thor. I hold no grudge. lol
I know people that love TDW just because of the LOOK of the film and not so much the script

I grew up a Thor fan so I know Thor was never one of the most popular heroes in Marvel canon. I'm just thrilled we're getting these movies at all and love TDW. I had a lot of geek out moments watching this film. I also feel the so called "plot holes" are unfounded if you really think about them and think this was a fun, rollicking adventure story. However, I don't like how it has become so divisive among fans. For this reason, I'm really hoping Marvel hits it out of the park with Thor 3 creating a more universally loved film along the lines of Iron Man 1 and Cap 2.

 

[Vartha]

No. Odin may have thought that initially but after the incident in the soul forge he puts two and two together and correctly surmises that it is the Aether within Jane. He then proceeds to tell the story of the Dark Elves in the library. But at this point they have already discovered it so they know it's not destroyed. I don't see how this is a contradiction.

But that's what I'm saying. Like Odin doesn't tell EVERYONE the whole truth, I'm Sure Bor did the same and let Odin think what he wanted to think.
What I'm thinking is, just because we hear Odin in the beginning, doesn't mean at that time (the beginning of the film) he KNEW the Aether was destroyed or not, because he IS the one telling the story and at that point I would assume that he would have KNOWN the Aether was HIDDEN and not destroyed because he's telling the story, but later in the library he's surprised it's IN Jane like he had thought it didn't exist any more.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

But that's what I'm saying. Like Odin doesn't tell EVERYONE the whole truth, I'm Sure Bor did the same and let Odin think what he wanted to think.
What I'm thinking is, just because we hear Odin in the beginning, doesn't mean at that time (the beginning of the film) he KNEW the Aether was destroyed or not, because he IS the one telling the story and at that point I would assume that he would have KNOWN the Aether was HIDDEN and not destroyed because he's telling the story, but later in the library he's surprised it's IN Jane like he had thought it didn't exist any more.

I see what you're saying. I guess I just looked at the intro as Odin telling the tale of the Dark Elves from his perspective before the events of this film unfold. From that point forward, he is part of the story. He's not around at the end of the movie to be telling it from that perspective. Actually none of us know where Odin is at the moment to be telling anybody stories. I do agree that he doesn't tell the whole truth. There's a deleted scene on the Blu Ray where Thor says something to that effect I believe.

 

[Mjölnir]

I didn't say I want him to be an anti-hero, I just think any smart, battle experienced person knows sacrifices have to happen for the greater good, no way around it. To assume you can save "everyone" is beyond stupid, not even God-god can do that (if you believe in that sort of thing).

it could have something to do with my overall hatred of the Jane character at this point too, lol

oh one last bit, how did he even think lightning would destroy the Aether, what in the world gave him that idea?
He's smarter than this in the comics (usually)

So beyond stupid that he actually succeeds? It doesn't go exactly like he planned but he does end up saving everyone, which makes your comment about it utterly pointless. Furthermore it's always been in Thor's nature to try to do it like this. You even reference comics later in your post but completely throw it out of the window here, which is a perplexing way to argue.

But the more important aspect of this is that the goodness in Thor that makes him try to do this is part of how you can limit a character with extreme power. When you start going into the "sacrifice for the greater good" then it becomes much harder to control a powerful character since being less than good is more effective (which is one reason why he claims that ruling is not for him). It also becomes harder to write interesting stories since the smart option of hiding is a **** story for a hero like Thor, while confronting the threat head on is what Thor is about. He's rushed into things too fast countless times, the most recent time being yesterday's comic where he played right into Roxxon's hands.

I don't know how his reasoning was behind destroying the Aether. I guess he still has some of his old hubris left. He couldn't know that he could survive within the Aether effect at the end either. Yet he just said he could and tried.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Some really good points Mjolnir. If Thor was as cold, ruthless and calculating as Loki he would be utterly unstoppable and ultimately he would no longer be heroic. He'd just be an all powerful *****ebag. It's his good heart that makes you want to root for him even if his best intentions go awry. In the end the fact that good triumphs over evil is a testament to his spirit, sacrifice and dauntless courage. Thor really believes he can overcome all odds and so he does. He doesn't settle for the lesser of two evils.

Another thing that's interesting to me is that because Jane was saved she was actually instrumental in helping Thor to defeat Malekith.

 

[BoredGuy]

So beyond stupid that he actually succeeds? It doesn't go exactly like he planned but he does end up saving everyone, which makes your comment about it utterly pointless. Furthermore it's always been in Thor's nature to try to do it like this. You even reference comics later in your post but completely throw it out of the window here, which is a perplexing way to argue.

Well, to the best of his knowledge, Loki's dead, so he didn't save everyone, but that's semantics I suppose.
And I hear what you're saying, and agree about Thor's goodness and the slippery slope of sacrifice. Their plan in London was ok, and worked out well enough (though I'm sure some dead Londoners may disagree)... I guess my main problem with their plan was the "bring it to Svartleheim and try to electricute it" part. It just seemed so epically stupid on both Thor and Loki's part that I face-palmed so hard I had a hand print on my forehead. Thor not being the smartest, most clever Avenger is canon, even in the comics. But I think a 5 year old could've come up with a better plan than that.

But you are correct about the character and how he must always try to save the day, it is his nature. It's just one that would usually, in the real world, have negative consequences, cuz ya can't save 'em all.

 

[Vartha]

I see what you're saying. I guess I just looked at the intro as Odin telling the tale of the Dark Elves from his perspective before the events of this film unfold. From that point forward, he is part of the story. He's not around at the end of the movie to be telling it from that perspective. Actually none of us know where Odin is at the moment to be telling anybody stories. I do agree that he doesn't tell the whole truth. There's a deleted scene on the Blu Ray where Thor says something to that effect I believe.

Yeah I hope we see more of those examples of Odin not letting the whole truth out and saying, "I'm the All-Father and YOU don't NEED to know the whole truth of my plans."
He did it to Loki, to if you remember "you were BOTH born to be kings" tho he doesn't say right off "Thor you're king of Asgard and Loki you are king of Jotunheim." Imagine the headaches that would have been prevented if Loki knew all along what was planned?

 

[Mjölnir]

Well, to the best of his knowledge, Loki's dead, so he didn't save everyone, but that's semantics I suppose.
And I hear what you're saying, and agree about Thor's goodness and the slippery slope of sacrifice. Their plan in London was ok, and worked out well enough (though I'm sure some dead Londoners may disagree)... I guess my main problem with their plan was the "bring it to Svartleheim and try to electricute it" part. It just seemed so epically stupid on both Thor and Loki's part that I face-palmed so hard I had a hand print on my forehead. Thor not being the smartest, most clever Avenger is canon, even in the comics. But I think a 5 year old could've come up with a better plan than that.

But you are correct about the character and how he must always try to save the day, it is his nature. It's just one that would usually, in the real world, have negative consequences, cuz ya can't save 'em all.

That's true, Loki died by all appearances. Then again Loki volunteered to fight with Thor for revenge, he wasn't one of those that Thor was directly trying to save (although Loki was at the very least redeemed in Thor's eyes).

As for a plan, I'm not so sure your plan would work any better. You wanted them to hide in hostile territory, which would not only add the threat of giants, it would probably not help to escape Malekith since he seemed to be able to feel where the Aether was, to a rough degree. That would mean they still fight Malekith and Kurse, but not with the element of surprise on their side.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I'd be interested to hear a better plan.

At the point Thor devises his, he knows the following:

A) Asgard is defenseless
B) The Dark Elves can traverse the realms without the Bifrost and attack undetected at any time
C) Thousands of Asgardians will die when that happens
D) Jane will die if the Aether is not removed from her

He does NOT know:

A) How long Jane has to live
B) That the Aether is indestructible
C) Malekith can use the Aether during the Convergence to unleash, absolute universal darkness

That being the case from his perspective the stakes aren't nearly as high but he does have a timetable. Had he known he could very well be responsible for the obliteration of the very universe makes for an interesting question as to what he would then do but the point is he didn't know. He's thinking I'm Thor, I have Mjolnir one of the most powerful weapons in the universe, I can do this.

His plan would've been fine if the Aether wasn't indestructible. He would've saved Jane and saved Asgard. Even after Malekith regained the Aether he could have used Mjolnir to destroy their fully exposed vessel before they boarded and even if he couldn't kill Malekith he could have battled him till the death and at the very least kept him contained on Svartalfheim. Unfortunately, he did not expect to face a foe like Kurse which led to Malekith's escape.

Conversely, if he took the Aether anywhere else, Malekith who clearly had demonstrated to be capable of detecting its presence, would've still tracked them down. Where would be safer than Asgard? Without the protection of Odin and the thousands of Asgardian warriors it would have been that much easier for Malekith to get his hands on the Aether - not to mention the initiative and element of surprise would have been on the Dark Elves' side as it was the first time they invaded Asgard. Jane would have died in the interim, Thor would still have had to face Kurse, all of Asgard may have very well perished, and Malekith would have unleashed the Aether into the Convergence. Credits roll.

I prefer the ending they gave us.

 

[BoredGuy]

I dunno, if I were Thor I think my plan would've been something like:
-Discuss with Odin the possibility of getting the Aether out of Jane. They didn't think they could do it without harming her, so why did Thor assume Malekith would get it out of her so peacefully?

-Set up some sort of ambush, whether in a quiet spot of Asgard or anywhere in the vast emptiness of Svartleheim, using trickery like Frigga's illusion, that I'm sure Loki could do as well. Malekith's forces weren't that large, so Thor and a small contingent involving the Warroirs Three, Sif, Loki and a few others could've handled the dark elves pretty well. Only Kurse would be a concern at that point, but if Malekith is killed, Kurse would be pretty blind and incapable of doing everything himself.

I just feel like, if his main motivation was to save Jane, why hand her over and just hope that Malekith nicely and harmlessly removes the Aether?? If I was him, I'd assume the process itself may kill her, and focus on finding other ways to get it out.

I get that Thor doesn't hide, but Jane damn well should, especially with Universe destroying juice flowing through her

 

[seahammer]

I grew up a Thor fan so I know Thor was never one of the most popular heroes in Marvel canon. I'm just thrilled we're getting these movies at all and love TDW. I had a lot of geek out moments watching this film. I also feel the so called "plot holes" are unfounded if you really think about them and think this was a fun, rollicking adventure story. However, I don't like how it has become so divisive among fans. For this reason, I'm really hoping Marvel hits it out of the park with Thor 3 creating a more universally loved film along the lines of Iron Man 1 and Cap 2.

I agree with all of this, RnR, especially the bold. I remember when I was a kid there was one Thor action figure available (I broke it and superglued it back together several times).

Spoiler

I was ecstatic for a split second Thor cameo in the X-Men cartoon:

Spoiler

Now we have Thor everywhere. He really is a household name, and non-comic fans see him in movies, cartoons, on toy shelves, on clothes, etc. It's a great time to be a Thor fan.

I walked out of both of these films on cloud 9. Were they perfect? No. Were they immensely enjoyable and rewatchable? Absolutely! I really want Thor 3 to be jaw-drappingly awesome, but I really can't complain about what we've gotten so far.

 

[Mjölnir]

I dunno, if I were Thor I think my plan would've been something like:
-Discuss with Odin the possibility of getting the Aether out of Jane. They didn't think they could do it without harming her, so why did Thor assume Malekith would get it out of her so peacefully?

-Set up some sort of ambush, whether in a quiet spot of Asgard or anywhere in the vast emptiness of Svartleheim, using trickery like Frigga's illusion, that I'm sure Loki could do as well. Malekith's forces weren't that large, so Thor and a small contingent involving the Warroirs Three, Sif, Loki and a few others could've handled the dark elves pretty well. Only Kurse would be a concern at that point, but if Malekith is killed, Kurse would be pretty blind and incapable of doing everything himself.

I just feel like, if his main motivation was to save Jane, why hand her over and just hope that Malekith nicely and harmlessly removes the Aether?? If I was him, I'd assume the process itself may kill her, and focus on finding other ways to get it out.

I get that Thor doesn't hide, but Jane damn well should, especially with Universe destroying juice flowing through her

A significant point was that Odin wasn't being anywhere near reasonable, so how are you going to discuss with him? He wanted to fight Malekith to the last drop of Asgardian blood so he was clearly too blinded by lust for vengeance to think rationally, let alone care about Jane (whom he didn't really care much about to begin with).

I don't see Odin being fine with letting Loki out either. He gave the order to stop Thor by any means necessary when he broke his orders so he'll definitely not be looking to have his sentence of Loki questioned. As for the ambush, given the context, it seems like it would mean fighting both Asgard soldiers and Malekith's gang.

He puts his hopes that Malekith will get it out without killing her because that was the only option for her to have a shot of surviving. It's both said and shown that she will not last long with the Aether inside of her. Trying to find information on the dark elves and their power - that not even Asgard possesses - seems like a very hard and time consuming project.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I dunno, if I were Thor I think my plan would've been something like:
-Discuss with Odin the possibility of getting the Aether out of Jane. They didn't think they could do it without harming her, so why did Thor assume Malekith would get it out of her so peacefully?

-Set up some sort of ambush, whether in a quiet spot of Asgard or anywhere in the vast emptiness of Svartleheim, using trickery like Frigga's illusion, that I'm sure Loki could do as well. Malekith's forces weren't that large, so Thor and a small contingent involving the Warroirs Three, Sif, Loki and a few others could've handled the dark elves pretty well. Only Kurse would be a concern at that point, but if Malekith is killed, Kurse would be pretty blind and incapable of doing everything himself.

I just feel like, if his main motivation was to save Jane, why hand her over and just hope that Malekith nicely and harmlessly removes the Aether?? If I was him, I'd assume the process itself may kill her, and focus on finding other ways to get it out.

I get that Thor doesn't hide, but Jane damn well should, especially with Universe destroying juice flowing through her

You are right that Thor had no idea if Malekith could extract the Aether without harming Jane. It was a gamble he had to take because there was no other option.

Jane asked Odin if there was a way to remove the Aether and he disinterestedly said there was not. Which leads to another point - Odin is not a fan of Jane. He never was in the comics either. After losing Frigga he clearly was not in a state of mind to try and apply his powers to save Jane (even if he could but he knows very little about it since his father did not tell him the whole story). Further, I'm sure it rankled Odin somewhat that Frigga died protecting Jane. Thor told Odin his whole plan and at no point did his father offer any alternatives. He just said the risk was too great and he'd rather die protecting it from falling into Malekith's hands.

I'm also of the opinion that MCU Odin has been getting progressively weaker in these films evinced by the longer-than-usual Odinsleep in the first Thor followed by him exhausting his power in order to send Thor to Midgard to retrieve the Tesseract. It's also why he has not gone into battle, has had Thor restoring order to the Nine Realms, and has been grooming Thor for the throne.

As far as engaging the Dark Elves that too would be risky. The enemy had demonstrated they were quite capable of decimating Asgard's forces. Any ambush would involve using the Aether (and by extension Jane) as the bait exposing it to being reclaimed by the enemy just as Thor had done. Malekith clearly had a connection with the Aether (since he created it) and would not have fallen for any illusion.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I agree with all of this, RnR, especially the bold. I remember when I was a kid there was one Thor action figure available (I broke it and superglued it back together several times).

I walked out of both of these films on cloud 9. Were they perfect? No. Were they immensely enjoyable and rewatchable? Absolutely! I really want Thor 3 to be jaw-drappingly awesome, but I really can't complain about what we've gotten so far.

That's awesome. Happy to see some Thor love.

I remember when the Bill Bixby Incredible Hulk series had a 2 hour special The Incredible Hulk Returns featuring Thor who wasn't a god but basically a viking thawed out of the ice after thousands of years. He had a hammer that somehow had electricity but wouldn't return to him. It was campy as hell. And I thought it was the greatest thing ever. Hahaha.

 

[Micromind]

I grew up a Thor fan so I know Thor was never one of the most popular heroes in Marvel canon. I'm just thrilled we're getting these movies at all and love TDW.

I really think that THOR fans are the luckiest comic book fans ever.

Thor-fans have got three successive movies each year featuring Thor and after a gap of just one year you fans are getting Avengers 2, once again featuring Thor.

I mean no other comic book hero has been getting such continuous movies year after year.

Thor(2011),The Avengers (2012), Thor: The Dark World (2013), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I really think that THOR fans are the luckiest comic book fans ever.

Thor-fans have got three successive movies each year featuring Thor and after a gap of just one year you fans are getting Avengers 2, once again featuring Thor.

I mean no other comic book hero has been getting such continuous movies year after year.

Thor(2011),The Avengers (2012), Thor: The Dark World (2013), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)

That’s a great point. I actually can’t believe it myself. And I’m not complaining! t:

However, I’d venture to say Cap fans are luckier:

Captain America: The First Avenger (2011), The Avengers (2012), Thor: The Dark World (2013) - cameo!, Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), Captain America 3 (2016)

That will make 6 straight years of Cap. Not to mention his movies have had some of the longest run times of all the solo films AND he had the most screen time out of everyone in the Avengers.

 

[Micromind]

That’s a great point. I actually can’t believe it myself. And I’m not complaining! t:

However, I’d venture to say Cap fans are luckier:

Captain America: The First Avenger (2011), The Avengers (2012), Thor: The Dark World (2013) - cameo!, Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), Captain America 3 (2016)

That will make 6 straight years of Cap. Not to mention his movies have had some of the longest run times of all the solo films AND he had the most screen time out of everyone in the Avengers.

Then, Chris Evans is the lucky actor here, he got a great chance to shine again after the failure of Fantastic Four franchise, failure of DC's Losers, Edgar Wright's Scott Pilgrim etc.

But yeah, Thor fans have had a great time too, just look at Superman fans who have to wait till 2016 to see him again !

 

[Mjölnir]

It's indeed a great time to be a Thor fan. After this run we'll most likely get a double again in 2017-18.

On top of all this movie goodness his current run in the comics is nothing short of amazing. Jason Aaron is on his way to making another legendary run for him.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Then, Chris Evans is the lucky actor here, he got a great chance to shine again after the failure of Fantastic Four franchise, failure of DC's Losers, Edgar Wright's Scott Pilgrim etc.

But yeah, Thor fans have had a great time too, just look at Superman fans who have to wait till 2016 to see him again !

I know. Not to mention the fact that it's not even his own sequel. I'm a Superman fan as well so that's kind of a downer. The optimist in me says it could end up becoming iconic but after Man of Steel I'm not really looking forward to it. Hopefully it will be worth the wait!

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

It's indeed a great time to be a Thor fan.

Agreed!

On top of all this movie goodness his current run in the comics is nothing short of amazing. Jason Aaron is on his way to making another legendary run for him.

Really? That's high praise. I read Aaron's Wolverine that everyone raved about and wasn't impressed. I will have to check out his Thor.

 

[Mjölnir]

Really? That's high praise. I read Aaron's Wolverine that everyone raved about and wasn't impressed. I will have to check out his Thor.

I love his run on Thor and at least during the first arc with the God Butcher it was the comic the people at Marvel were talking about. Start with the first issue of Thor: God of Thunder and see if you like it.

 

[seahammer]

I love his run on Thor and at least during the first arc with the God Butcher it was the comic the people at Marvel were talking about. Start with the first issue of Thor: God of Thunder and see if you like it.

Seconded! He's not afraid to do new things with the mythos and put his own stamp on it, but he's been doing it in a way that really brings out the character of who Thor is. I think Aaron really "gets" Thor, which is great because he said he would like to stay on the title for a long time. The God Butcher arc was great, the Malekith arc was okay, and this current arc is pretty good so far (I haven't read the latest issue yet, but so far so good). Aaron has said that he would like to do a story with Mangog at some point in the future, too.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

That's awesome. Happy to see some Thor love.

I remember when the Bill Bixby Incredible Hulk series had a 2 hour special The Incredible Hulk Returns featuring Thor who wasn't a god but basically a viking thawed out of the ice after thousands of years. He had a hammer that somehow had electricity but wouldn't return to him. It was campy as hell. And I thought it was the greatest thing ever. Hahaha.

I get what you guys are saying, I am the same with X-Men and Spiderman, but that doesnt mean when they produce crap like X-Men 3, XMO: Wolverine or movies I just dont find much interest in like the new Spidey movies I will just be happy about it. Quite the opposite.

I found Thor 2 really disappointing, especially after finding Thor 1 the best phase 1 solo movie. If they had put half the effort into Thor 2 that they did with Cap it would have been much better.

At the start of phase 2 Thor 2 was the one I was most excited about because it clearly had the most potential, but they just wasted that with poor decisions.

That’s a great point. I actually can’t believe it myself. And I’m not complaining! t:

However, I’d venture to say Cap fans are luckier:

Captain America: The First Avenger (2011), The Avengers (2012), Thor: The Dark World (2013) - cameo!, Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), Captain America 3 (2016)

That will make 6 straight years of Cap. Not to mention his movies have had some of the longest run times of all the solo films AND he had the most screen time out of everyone in the Avengers.

Yep, Cap is the one getting the most focus at the minute, but if they keep producing movies of the quality of TWS they can keep focusing on him all they want.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I get what you guys are saying, I am the same with X-Men and Spiderman, but that doesnt mean when they produce crap like X-Men 3, XMO: Wolverine or movies I just dont find much interest in like the new Spidey movies I will just be happy about it. Quite the opposite.

I found Thor 2 really disappointing, especially after finding Thor 1 the best phase 1 solo movie. If they had put half the effort into Thor 2 that they did with Cap it would have been much better.

At the start of phase 2 Thor 2 was the one I was most excited about because it clearly had the most potential, but they just wasted that with poor decisions.



Yep, Cap is the one getting the most focus at the minute, but if they keep producing movies of the quality of TWS they can keep focusing on him all they want.

Yes you’ve been very vocal in your dislike of Thor 2 but are you honestly ranking it on the level of Last Stand or Borigins? Come on man.

Cap and Thor are two very different types of heroes. Asgard and Dark Elves aren't real. Snowden, NSA, terrorism, etc. are all very real. As a result Cap 2 is the darkest and most serious film Marvel has made yet - proving among other things that they apply the right tone where needed. But as much as I would love a director with the same passion for the source material as the Russos, I certainly don't want Thor to try to be a Captain America movie. That would be a fail.

 

[Vartha]

I get what you guys are saying, I am the same with X-Men and Spiderman, but that doesnt mean when they produce crap like X-Men 3, XMO: Wolverine or movies I just dont find much interest in like the new Spidey movies I will just be happy about it. Quite the opposite.

I found Thor 2 really disappointing, especially after finding Thor 1 the best phase 1 solo movie. If they had put half the effort into Thor 2 that they did with Cap it would have been much better.

At the start of phase 2 Thor 2 was the one I was most excited about because it clearly had the most potential, but they just wasted that with poor decisions.



Yep, Cap is the one getting the most focus at the minute, but if they keep producing movies of the quality of TWS they can keep focusing on him all they want.

Of ALL the Marvel Related films to ME the worst are the FF films. Heck even Man-Thing and Howard the Duck were more actuate.

Thor and TDW to me are both up there on my list, but based on LOOKS TDW is much better. Both are missing important story lines that SHOULD have been left in. (I need a TDW script to read)