The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Who would be the best MJ?

[Vid Electricz]

this is interesting

Seriously?

 

[DigificWriter]

Neither Vid Electricz or I have ever insisted that Webb and Co. use a particular version of the Mary Jane character in the film.

For the record, BTW, Webb and Co. have not actually directly adapted any particular version of any of the characters thus far for their film(s).

They've certainly drawn inspiration from the '616' version of Gwen for their version of the character, but have put their own spin on her, and, based on what little we saw, did the same for MJ, seeming to have drawn inspiration from both the 'Ultimate' and 'Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane' versions of the character but putting their own spin on her.

Some people here believe that, with Woodley being cut from TASM2, Webb and Co. are going to drastically rework the character regardless of whether or not she returns, but I really don't think that is very likely at all.

 

[fuflipflops]

Seriously?

i didn't say if it was good or bad interesting, though.

i found it on a blog with this speech on how shailene is totally hot enough to play mj, which, as good as the intentions were, just further proves that the looks are more important than any other aspect of the character; that shailene is a good choice not because she understands mj well and is a good actress for the role, but because she can look the part when she's dressed up.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

Neither Vid Electricz or I have ever insisted that Webb and Co. use a particular version of the Mary Jane character in the film.

For the record, BTW, Webb and Co. have not actually directly adapted any particular version of any of the characters thus far for their film(s).

They've certainly drawn inspiration from the '616' version of Gwen for their version of the character, but have put their own spin on her, and, based on what little we saw, did the same for MJ, seeming to have drawn inspiration from both the 'Ultimate' and 'Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane' versions of the character but putting their own spin on her.

Some people here believe that, with Woodley being cut from TASM2, Webb and Co. are going to drastically rework the character regardless of whether or not she returns, but I really don't think that is very likely at all.

Why not?

@Vid Electricz, all I got from your rambling and your ongoing rambling is sexy = bad + dated. If you are worried about objectifying women there is a reason Gwen was created the way she was. Gwen is the main female lead who isn't supposed to be just eye candy. Not saying MJ is just that, but she is a character Peter has to work up to, rather than getting her straight away like Gwen.

And besides, Spider-Man himself is a fanboy! As a character and as a series Spider-Man is nowhere near as serious as the V for Vendetta characters, the Watchmen characters (basically any comic by Alan Moore) and even more mainstream like Batman. He is one of the most fun and playful heroes there are, and his supporting cast reflects that. But clearly if you don't feel that, then there is absolutely no changing that. I suggest if discussion regarding 'Who would be the perfect MJ' offends you, to not visit the thread so much.

 

[sl500jazz]

DigificWriter, I think it just came across as though you and Vid were for some reason dead set against people preferring a predominantly 616 MJ for this franchise. It is true that Webb's franchise is not a direct adaptation of the comics, but I still believe (and think that most would agree) that his Gwen is predominantly 616 in characterization with some alterations made(and completely unlike any other incarnation of the character- particularly the rebellious volatile rough around the edges punk rock ultimate version), and I've always felt that Gwen and MJ are a package deal. I wouldn't understand the need to drastically change MJ's character and identity (like what the Ultimate comics did to Gwen and MJ). It's not like mainstream audiences have been force fed 616 MJ in every single medium that Spider-Man has ever been depicted, so I think that depicting the character in a similar vein to 616 (not necessarily a direct adaptation, but in keeping the character's identity) would be a breath of fresh air, would fit perfectly within Webb's world, and I think it would be a decision that most people would understand. If he wants to go with another version or create his own, fine. It just wouldn't be my cup of tea. Whether or not Shailene returns, I still don't think that the possibility of him doing any version of the character (including 616) has been ruled out yet. He may choose to rework the character, he may not. None of us know for certain at this point.

and suurrreeee fuflipflops.

 

[fuflipflops]

and suurrreeee fuflipflops.

"suuuuureeee" what? saying shailene is a good choice for mj because she's hot is no different than saying she isn't because she's ugly; it's still diminishing both mj and shailene to their looks. it's all i'm pointing out.

i've not seen one comment defending the absolute need for mj to look like a todd mcfarlane drawing on steroids that's actually reasonable, everyone just goes round and round trying not to sound like they just want a hot chick to look at, but that's exactly what it sounds like; saying there's nothing sexist in wanting that, saying others are overreacting, saying that it's just canon that peter has to think he doesn't have a chance with her and therefore it should be 100% respected (though i'll never know where people got that from, because peter got mj's attention from the get-go, it's not like he was chasing her and though she'd reject him. he was the one that rejected her countless times, actually, when she'd make her advances and he'd be with gwen, or even after gwen died, she'd come up with ways to hang out with him, put up freaking mistletoe over them so they could kiss and peter would push her away... if anything, she went after him.) and all it's said is "i want mj to be hot because."

 

[DigificWriter]

If Webb and Co. wanted to use '616 MJ' as the inspiration for their version of the character, they already would have, even with Woodley in the role, and there is absolutely no evidence or reason for them to change their minds.

sl500jazz, what I'm against is the ridiculous notion that '616 MJ' is the only version f the character that matters and should be the only version of the character depicted in any medium.

As for your comment that everyone can agree that TASM Gwen is basically '616 Gwen', that is by no means the case. TASM Gwen has obviously been inspired by 616 Gwen in a number of respects, but she is also clearly a distinct character all her own who, as I believe I've already noted, reminds me very much of my HS valedictorian.

It is also not a requirement that a given adaptation of Spider-Man in any medium draw inspiration from any single iteration of the source comics, nor should it be. Just because Webb and Co. used 616 Gwen as partial inspiration for TASM Gwen doesn't mean that they can't look to other comics for inspiration for TASM Mary Jane (or any other character, for that matter).

 

[InstaKill]

I'm on board for Lyndsy Fonseca, and would still look forward to a Woodley MJ. But honestly, I haven't been able to get the idea of Amber Heard as MJ out of my mind since The Rum Diary.

 

[sl500jazz]

If Webb and Co. wanted to use '616 MJ' as the inspiration for their version of the character, they already would have, even with Woodley in the role, and there is absolutely no evidence or reason for them to change their minds.

It comes across though as if you are stating this as a fact (which it is not), and anyone who disagrees is completely wrong. It is an interpretation of the facts. I believe that the facts that we have been given leans toward Webb and co. reworking the character in the next film, but none of us really know for certain because neither scenario has been confirmed nor denied by anyone involved in the project.

Heck, we haven't even seen Woodley's performance or MJ's scenes yet, so we don't even really know for a fact whether or not Webb's MJ in TASM2 was a predominantly '616' type of MJ in characterization. Saying that she was/is not would be an assumption based on Woodley's appearance in the set pics.

Could she be the struggling actress/model? Possibly

Could she be the troubled yet vivacious and bubbly party animal? Maybe

Could she be the sexy, flirtatious, and confident maneater as depicted in the 616 universe? Who knows?

All we really know of the character from TASM2 is that she works as a waitress (like Raimi's MJ) and rides a bike, which imo really doesn't say much in terms of what Webb planned or what he may have been inspired by for the character.

I'm not going to lie, I too was initially given the impression that Webb was going for something other than a 616 inspired MJ, but we could be totally wrong about that because once again: neither of us know for a fact what Webb's intentions were, and we have yet to see the character in action.

sl500jazz, what I'm against is the ridiculous notion that '616 MJ' is the only version f the character that matters and should be the only version of the character depicted in any medium.

As for your comment that everyone can agree that TASM Gwen is basically '616 Gwen', that is by no means the case. TASM Gwen has obviously been inspired by 616 Gwen in a number of respects, but she is also clearly a distinct character all her own who, as I believe I've already noted, reminds me very much of my HS valedictorian.

It is also not a requirement that a given adaptation of Spider-Man in any medium draw inspiration from any single iteration of the source comics, nor should it be. Just because Webb and Co. used 616 Gwen as partial inspiration for TASM Gwen doesn't mean that they can't look to other comics for inspiration for TASM Mary Jane (or any other character, for that matter).

Personally, I dislike MJ's alternate versions (particularly ultimate). As I've said before, they are practically completely different characters in almost every aspect, only sharing the name and the hair color.The character has been portrayed as anything and everything if we are talking about alternate universes. I do not think that 616 MJ is necessarily the only version of the character that matters, but I do believe(regardless of whether or not you disagree) that she is the version that matters most and I would argue the same about 616 Gwen. They can completely change the character if they wanted to, I just have a preference for a predominantly 616 inspired MJ for this franchise to go along with the intelligent, intellectual, studious, wears her heart on her sleeve,wholesome, 'marriage material', and good-natured Gwen Stacy (the character's foil) and the death of Gwen Stacy arc (a major turning point in 616 MJ's character development that was completely lost in ultimate). We clearly disagree about Webb's portrayal of Gwen, so no need to rehash that. BTW, I have never argued that MJ should be depicted the same exact way in every film/cartoon/novel ever made (which she clearly hasn't been), just that it would be nice to see a 616 or even a TSSM inspired MJ in this franchise since the character has so rarely been depicted in the iconic 616 fashion apart from the mainstream Spider-Man comic book series.

I just want you to understand where it is that I am coming from. If you prefer another version of the character, if you like what you saw from the set pics in TASM2, or hope that Webb completely rewrite the character's identity for this franchise, that's fine, we are all entitled to our own beliefs, and I'm not going to argue with you about any preferences that you may have for this character because that is a pointless argument, and I'm certainly not going to try to diminish your opinions. If I prefer chocolate, and you prefer vanilla : what difference does it make? I'm not going to convince you that one is better than the other, and you are not going to convince me.

"suuuuureeee" what? saying shailene is a good choice for mj because she's hot is no different than saying she isn't because she's ugly; it's still diminishing both mj and shailene to their looks. it's all i'm pointing out.

Very true. If those were your intentions, agreed.

i've not seen one comment defending the absolute need for mj to look like a todd mcfarlane drawing on steroids that's actually reasonable, everyone just goes round and round trying not to sound like they just want a hot chick to look at, but that's exactly what it sounds like; saying there's nothing sexist in wanting that, saying others are overreacting, saying that it's just canon that peter has to think he doesn't have a chance with her and therefore it should be 100% respected (though i'll never know where people got that from, because peter got mj's attention from the get-go, it's not like he was chasing her and though she'd reject him. he was the one that rejected her countless times, actually, when she'd make her advances and he'd be with gwen, or even after gwen died, she'd come up with ways to hang out with him, put up freaking mistletoe over them so they could kiss and peter would push her away... if anything, she went after him.) and all it's said is "i want mj to be hot because."

First of all, 616 MJ was a flirt. She didn't make any serious advances towards having a relationship with him, she flirted with him just as much as she flirted with Flash, Harry, and many other guys. It was part of her facade. And she's always been out of Peter's league. Peter was pretty smitten by her around the time that she first appeared, but soon wrote her off as being a shallow party girl. Instead he pursued Gwen, the kind of girl that he was not only attracted to, but had things in common with and figured he could one day marry. After Gwen died, Peter realized that he was wrong about MJ and began pursuing a relationship with her. They fell deeply in love. He asked her to marry him ....and she rejected his proposal TWICE out of fear of commitment. Her reason being that there were plenty of other fish in the sea (guys for her to date) and that she just wasn't the marriage type.

I have to agree with WarriorDreamer, I still don't understand why MJ being sexy, seductive, or flirtatious diminishes or simplifies her character at all. Can you please explain that to me? Gwen is an intellectual and studios book worm. Like MJ's sexiness, it's a facet of her character's personality, but not something that diminishes or simplifies the character. I can't speak for everyone, but I am certainly not arguing that 'being sexy' or 'the bombshell', should be MJ's ONLY characteristic nor am I arguing that any actress that portrays the character should look like an 'idealized' and anatomically disproportionate Jessica Rabbit-fied McFarlane drawing. Just that I would prefer that she (whether or not that person is Shailene) captured the essence of the mainstream version of the character, which includes the sexiness. Why is this an aspect of the character that SHOULD BE or NEEDS TO BE gotten rid of? Why does being overtly sexual somehow diminish a woman's character? I get the objectification of women in modern day media, but it seems like a very 1950's/Victorian -esque notion to me that a woman being overtly sexy or having too much "sex appeal" somehow prevents her from being multivalent and having any substance.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Why not?

@Vid Electricz, all I got from your rambling and your ongoing rambling is sexy = bad + dated. If you are worried about objectifying women there is a reason Gwen was created the way she was. Gwen is the main female lead who isn't supposed to be just eye candy. Not saying MJ is just that, but she is a character Peter has to work up to, rather than getting her straight away like Gwen.

Seriosuly? Well then, you really didn't get what I was "rambling" about. I suggest going back and re-reading. As for the rest of this comment...no comment.

And besides, Spider-Man himself is a fanboy! As a character and as a series Spider-Man is nowhere near as serious as the V for Vendetta characters, the Watchmen characters (basically any comic by Alan Moore) and even more mainstream like Batman. He is one of the most fun and playful heroes there are, and his supporting cast reflects that. But clearly if you don't feel that, then there is absolutely no changing that. I suggest if discussion regarding 'Who would be the perfect MJ' offends you, to not visit the thread so much.

Where to even begin. Spider-Man is a fanboy? Spider-Man is not like V or Rorschach? I shouldn't visit this thread if it offends me? omg. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

i didn't say if it was good or bad interesting, though.

i found it on a blog with this speech on how shailene is totally hot enough to play mj, which, as good as the intentions were, just further proves that the looks are more important than any other aspect of the character; that shailene is a good choice not because she understands mj well and is a good actress for the role, but because she can look the part when she's dressed up.

"suuuuureeee" what? saying shailene is a good choice for mj because she's hot is no different than saying she isn't because she's ugly; it's still diminishing both mj and shailene to their looks. it's all i'm pointing out.

i've not seen one comment defending the absolute need for mj to look like a todd mcfarlane drawing on steroids that's actually reasonable, everyone just goes round and round trying not to sound like they just want a hot chick to look at, but that's exactly what it sounds like; saying there's nothing sexist in wanting that, saying others are overreacting.

Hear that? it's the echoing sound of you hitting the nail on the head.

saying that it's just canon that peter has to think he doesn't have a chance with her and therefore it should be 100% respected (though i'll never know where people got that from, because peter got mj's attention from the get-go, it's not like he was chasing her and though she'd reject him. he was the one that rejected her countless times, actually, when she'd make her advances and he'd be with gwen, or even after gwen died, she'd come up with ways to hang out with him, put up freaking mistletoe over them so they could kiss and peter would push her away... if anything, she went after him.) and all it's said is "i want mj to be hot because."

Class +10
Smarts +10
Heart + 10
Style + 10

It's so funny to see people who have never read the comics and have only a vague idea about these characters claiming they want the "true" 616 versions represented on screen (along with the various indulgent, transparent reasoning it involves)- when this "version" of the character never really existed in the first place.

If Webb and Co. wanted to use '616 MJ' as the inspiration for their version of the character, they already would have, even with Woodley in the role, and there is absolutely no evidence or reason for them to change their minds.

sl500jazz, what I'm against is the ridiculous notion that '616 MJ' is the only version f the character that matters and should be the only version of the character depicted in any medium.

As for your comment that everyone can agree that TASM Gwen is basically '616 Gwen', that is by no means the case. TASM Gwen has obviously been inspired by 616 Gwen in a number of respects, but she is also clearly a distinct character all her own who, as I believe I've already noted, reminds me very much of my HS valedictorian.

It is also not a requirement that a given adaptation of Spider-Man in any medium draw inspiration from any single iteration of the source comics, nor should it be. Just because Webb and Co. used 616 Gwen as partial inspiration for TASM Gwen doesn't mean that they can't look to other comics for inspiration for TASM Mary Jane (or any other character, for that matter).

 

[sl500jazz]

First of all, 616 MJ was a flirt. She didn't make any serious advances towards having a relationship with him, she flirted with him just as much as she flirted with Flash, Harry, and many other guys. It was part of her facade. And she's always been out of Peter's league. Peter was pretty smitten by her around the time that she first appeared, but soon wrote her off as being a shallow party girl. Instead he pursued Gwen, the kind of girl that he was not only attracted to, but had things in common with and figured he could one day marry. After Gwen died, Peter realized that he was wrong about MJ and began pursuing a relationship with her. They fell deeply in love. He asked her to marry him ....and she rejected his proposal TWICE out of fear of commitment. Her reason being that there were plenty of other fish in the sea (guys for her to date) and that she just wasn't the marriage type.

I have to agree with WarriorDreamer, I still don't understand why MJ being sexy, seductive, or flirtatious diminishes or simplifies her character at all. Can you please explain that to me? Gwen is an intellectual and studios book worm. Like MJ's sexiness, it's a facet of her character's personality, but not something that diminishes or simplifies the character. I can't speak for everyone, but I am certainly not arguing that 'being sexy' or 'the bombshell', should be MJ's ONLY characteristic nor am I arguing that any actress that portrays the character should look like an 'idealized' and anatomically disproportionate Jessica Rabbit-fied McFarlane drawing. Just that I would prefer that she (whether or not that person is Shailene) captured the essence of the mainstream version of the character, which includes the sexiness. Why is this an aspect of the character that SHOULD BE or NEEDS TO BE gotten rid of? Why does being overtly sexual somehow diminish a woman's character? I get the objectification of women in modern day media, but it seems like a very 1950's/Victorian -esque notion to me that a woman being overtly sexy or having too much "sex appeal" somehow prevents her from being multivalent and having any substance.

Just thought I'd post some actual panels from the comic to help illustrate that argument and help clarify MJ's portrayal within the 616 universe. You might have to open the images in a new tab or zoom in to read them. There were just too many of them and the images were resized upon posting.

It's so funny to see people who have never read the comics and have only a vague idea about these characters claiming they want the "true" 616 versions represented on screen (along with the various indulgent, transparent reasoning it involves)- when this "version" of the character never really existed in the first place.

I need specifics, just who exactly were you referring to in that statement? I'm choosing to believe that it wasn't me. And please tell me which aspects of this "version" of the character never really existed in the first place??? hmmmm

'Nuff Said.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

Where to even begin. Spider-Man is a fanboy? Spider-Man is not like V or Rorschach? I shouldn't visit this thread if it offends me? omg. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Do neither, just click off the thread and don't come back here.

When I said fanboy I meant in the sense of someone who is passionate about comic books, sci-fi, and video games, which Peter is.

This thread is called 'Who would be the best MJ' which generally means 'Who else could play her other than Shailene?' If others' choices upset you, I suggest you don't listen to any casting suggestion.

 

[DigificWriter]

sl500jazz, there are some of us who don't think that the way 616 MJ was characterized in the beginning did the character any favors. I happen to be one of those people. Although the line "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot" is iconic, it honestly makes her look like a bitca by modern standards.

I do want to make it clear that I'm not opposed to a version of the MJ character who is inspired by the 616 version of the character, as the version of the character I was first exposed to - the MJ from the 1994 cartoon - was heavily based on 616 MJ, albeit presented in a fashion that didn't make her seem like a bitca.

 

[Human Torch]

this is interesting

Eh,I don't even bother coming into this forum anymore since Shailene was bounced.She was the only thing I was looking forward to in the new film.

 

[Oscorp]

sl500jazz, there are some of us who don't think that the way 616 MJ was characterized in the beginning did the character any favors. I happen to be one of those people. Although the line "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot" is iconic, it honestly makes her look like a bitca by modern standards.

I do want to make it clear that I'm not opposed to a version of the MJ character who is inspired by the 616 version of the character, as the version of the character I was first exposed to - the MJ from the 1994 cartoon - was heavily based on 616 MJ, albeit presented in a fashion that didn't make her seem like a bitca.

She could still say that line, if needed, but in a way that wouldn't make her sound like a B. Peter could look at her like he's never seen someone as gorgeous before, and she notices his awkward face and says that line in a lighthearted, joking way as a respons to that.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ That's essentially what they tried to do with the Animated Series, although, in rewatching a clip of her saying the line, it does still come off a little condescending.

Eh,I don't even bother coming into this forum anymore since Shailene was bounced.She was the only thing I was looking forward to in the new film.

She HASN'T been bounced from the role, though, and won't be until/unless there's a conflict with her schedule once it comes time to shoot TASM3.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

sl500jazz, there are some of us who don't think that the way 616 MJ was characterized in the beginning did the character any favors. I happen to be one of those people. Although the line "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot" is iconic, it honestly makes her look like a bitca by modern standards.

I do want to make it clear that I'm not opposed to a version of the MJ character who is inspired by the 616 version of the character, as the version of the character I was first exposed to - the MJ from the 1994 cartoon - was heavily based on 616 MJ, albeit presented in a fashion that didn't make her seem like a bitca.

The line only works when it's played for humor. The only reason she says it is because of the shocked look on Peter's face. Peter was an average guy who thought she was the best looking thing he had ever seen and she responds to his nerdishness by saying that line.

I don't mind if she's a bit of a bitca. But a self proclaimed bitca. That's all the difference. Some may say that Lois was somewhat of a B on Smallville, but what separated her from the other female characters was that she admitted her flaws and was pretty upfront and honest about her mistakes and has a sense of humor about herself. Raimi's MJ wasn't like that, she went around thinking Peter and the world owed her so much, because she is obviously a perfect human being. To me that's not what 616 Mary Jane was like at-all. She was just upfront about who she was and you either took her or left her.

Admittedly I'm not that familiar with Ultimate because I never really read those books, but I know what I've heard, that she has aspirations to be a journalist. They could go for that version, but from what I've seen there is a very strong demand by audiences to see the 616 version. Or at least a modern take on the 616 version.

 

[Human Torch]

Those who can't get the "face it tiger" line have missed the point of MJ from the beginning.She's the wounded,hurting soul,who masks it with the hot to trot party girl image.The epitome of "you can't tell a book by it's cover".

 

[sl500jazz]

Digificwriter, I can understand you thinking that 616 MJ is/was characterized as being a bit of a bitca. She's always had a very sharp tongue and and speaks with a lot of confidence in herself (some may argue that she comes across as having a bit of an inflated ego), but (as WarriorDreamer said) she also has a sense of humor about herself and is aware of her shortcomings . I believe that she uses the overly confident attitude and the humor to mask her insecurities. Either way, the girl is aware of what she's got and she owns it. She definitely comes on very strong and has one of those take it or leave it kind of personalities, and it's still something that she has been depicted with in some of the more recent Spider-Man issues. 40 + years and the character has grown, matured, and we have learned some of her innermost feelings and secrets, but for the most part she is still the same woman that Lee introduced us to in ASM #42.

I'd really like them to use the "jackpot" line (of course along with a 616 inspired MJ), but the more I think about it, I'd really only want them to use it if it works naturally with the character's portrayal and personality within the film like it does with 616 MJ. Ultimate MJ used the line too (after Peter shared his secret with her and they were about to kiss), and I get why Bendis used it - for the sake of the line's iconography and as an homage to the 616 universe -, but imo it just seems out of place with that 'version' of the character. And I understand why Raimi dropped it too. It wouldn't have fit with his portrayal of the character either. But Webb had plans to use it, so I wonder...

 

[DigificWriter]

Webb had plans to use it

He did? Can you provide a source for this, please (I'm genuinely curious as to when/where he said he'd planned on using the line)?

 

[fuflipflops]

He did? Can you provide a source for this, please (I'm genuinely curious as to when/where he said he'd planned on using the line)?

shailene said at comic con she said the line.

http://www.hitfix.com/news/divergents-shailene-woodley-discusses-exit-from-the-amazing-spider-man

 

[DigificWriter]

shailene said at comic con she said the line.

http://www.hitfix.com/news/divergents-shailene-woodley-discusses-exit-from-the-amazing-spider-man

Thanks.

I hope Webb and Co. put the line in the screenplay for TASM3 because I'd like to see how they play it (especially if Woodley is able to retain possession of the role). Hopefully it won't come across as condescending as I think it did in the comics.

 

[Oscorp]

Those who can't get the "face it tiger" line have missed the point of MJ from the beginning.She's the wounded,hurting soul,who masks it with the hot to trot party girl image.The epitome of "you can't tell a book by it's cover".

Well said

 

[DigificWriter]

You never forget a first impression, and if I had first been exposed to 616 MJ in the pages of the comics (especially as she was originally introduced), I, as a reader, would've wanted Peter to stay as far away from her as possible.

 

[Human Torch]

Again,that was kind of the point.She was from the wrong side of the tracks and it wasn't obvious she would be the right kind of girl for Peter.Especially compared to Gwen.

Kids would eat that up today,even more than they did yesteryear.