whos to blame? fox, ratner , writers?

[onDgrind]

i wonder if bryan singer directed the last stand and cyclops still dies,if people are gonna blame bryan,people just hate ratner just becuz he aint singer , even b4 they ve seen the movie, ve said it b4 and i will say it again, ratner did a good job, i wouldnt blame him a bit

 

[GoldGoblin]

Fox

 

[Fanticon]

I say the writers for allowing just as much crappy dialogue in the script, as there was good dialogue. They write what the actor's characters are going to say...and if one of my complaints was the lighthearted humor in some scenes...then it also leads to Ratner for allowing it to stay in the movie...but whatever I could run in circles with this.

 

[the_scream]

It's already been pointed out by critics that Ratner changed the script a lot. So there's no need to keep second guessing.

Here's part of it:

"Ratner on the final act: I had to COMPLETELY CHANGE the third act. The new conclusion is probably more expensive.

Ratner on the Sentinels: I've been able to put stuff in this movie which, for some reason, Bryan [Singer] wasn't. The Danger Room, the Fastball Special, and also the Sentinels -- it's really hard to make a robot a character. All these things weren't in the script until I introduced them."

More on http://www.xmenfilms.net/xnews/101.html

He didn't make the sentinel a character. What a wanker.

 

[Cyclops]

All of the above. The studio for pushing the film to come out too fast, the director for bungling what he was given, and the writers for turning out a crappy script.

Two good factors can overcome one bad factor any day of the week - but when it's all bad, then you've got a problem.

 

[borinquenknight]

All of them. It was a group effort to destroy a great franchise.

Yup. I agree all. Brett was rather enthusiastic about his little crap ball!

 

[Long_Live_Remy]

The only people to blaim are Fox. Think about it. Fox was so freaking set on launching this movie memorial day weekend. They took forever to get a set in stone director. They took forever securing writers, sets, what-not. Then they finally got a director, got a script, and FINALLY got to work. But it was way late. Now, had they just gotten rid of that release date, said to Mr. Ratner, "X3 is yours. Do what you think will give us lots of cash (cause Fox is like that, look deep inside and admit it)." Ratner then would have had time to work with the writers deeper and perfect the script, make it longer, hell he may have even had a chance to consult with Singer about ideas. Then, we could have had a 2-2.5 hour movie that kicked ass all the way through with action, but also had enough time to tell all the stories that need be told. The movie may have not come out till after Superman Returns, but who gives a damn? Hell, X3 could have ridden the wave created by SR. SR (had it come out first) would have caused a ton of buzz in the comic movie world, and people would have been fighting to get in to X3 afterwards from the hype wave made by SR.

So overall, Fox was so damn stubborn about the Memorial Weekend thing, that Ratner and the writers were forced to hurry through a movie that needed time. Damn you Fox, damn you to hell.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The only people to blaim are Fox. Think about it. Fox was so freaking set on launching this movie memorial day weekend. They took forever to get a set in stone director. They took forever securing writers, sets, what-not. Then they finally got a director, got a script, and FINALLY got to work. But it was way late. Now, had they just gotten rid of that release date, said to Mr. Ratner, "X3 is yours. Do what you think will give us lots of cash (cause Fox is like that, look deep inside and admit it)." Ratner then would have had time to work with the writers deeper and perfect the script, make it longer, hell he may have even had a chance to consult with Singer about ideas. Then, we could have had a 2-2.5 hour movie that kicked ass all the way through with action, but also had enough time to tell all the stories that need be told. The movie may have not come out till after Superman Returns, but who gives a damn? Hell, X3 could have ridden the wave created by SR. SR (had it come out first) would have caused a ton of buzz in the comic movie world, and people would have been fighting to get in to X3 afterwards from the hype wave made by SR.

So overall, Fox was so damn stubborn about the Memorial Weekend thing, that Ratner and the writers were forced to hurry through a movie that needed time. Damn you Fox, damn you to hell.

Well some of that i disagree with, i hold Fox more responsible than anyone for this disaster, but Ratner said from very early on that he wanted the movie under two hours in run time as he has a short attention span, so you cant blame Fox for that.

 

[CapBeerCino]

Well some of that i disagree with, i hold Fox more responsible than anyone for this disaster, but Ratner said from very early on that he wanted the movie under two hours in run time as he has a short attention span, so you cant blame Fox for that.

True. And Fox didn't write the cheesy one liners as well.

 

[DRob]

To be a full hundred percent honest, Ratner had the least responsibility.
If he had more prep time, then he'd have more fault. Because the full draft was well written, the main fault lies with either the writers or studio executives.

So my opionion is that the guys at Fox were the ones who really fouled up. If they got the ball rolling in advanced then the film would been in better shape.
Besides Fox screwed with the release with the original.

they should have taken X-men to another studio

 

[Angamb]

they should have taken X-men to another studio

Agreed. Or at least, give the xfilms more budget, and more time to do them.

 

[DRob]

Which studio should have done X-men and which director would truely have done it justice(no Joss Whedon)?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I would have loved Joss Whedon, Alex Proyas or Bryan Singer to have done X3, but since none of them will ever work for Fox again it'll never happen.

 

[GNR]

The writers.The story was bad.

Singer could be blamed for alot.

A-Cyclops' role.Had Cyke gotten a pivotal role in X2,there is no doubt his role in X3 would be much bigger.

B-The lack of teamwork and the X-Men fighting as a team.

C-Butchering of guys like Sabretooth and Deathstrike.

D-The dark and cerebral tone of X2 which made the film too serious for the type of genre it is.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

The writers.The story was bad.

Singer could be blamed for alot.

A-Cyclops' role.Had Cyke gotten a pivotal role in X2,there is no doubt his role in X3 would be much bigger.

B-The lack of teamwork and the X-Men fighting as a team.

C-Butchering of guys like Sabretooth and Deathstrike.

D-The dark and cerebral tone of X2 which made the film too serious for the type of genre it is.

A) The story called for Cyclops to be out of the picture in X2. At the end though it hinted that he would have a major role in X3.

B) There was teamwork in X1. In X2 it was mainly about a team working with their enemies, which caused a lot of tension and confusion.

C) I agree to some extent about Sabretooth and Deathstrike. I think Singer kind of hinted with Wolverine/Sabretooth's past with Sabre taking Logan's dogtag. However, in terms of his character depiction, I'm inclined to agree with you in that department. I do agree with Lady Deathstrike though.

D) What? There are plenty of stories that have a dark atmosphere in X-Men. I like that Singer made it darker, more intelligent, thought provoking, and emotional at the same time.

 

[crappymovie]

A) The story called for Cyclops to be out of the picture in X2. At the end though it hinted that he would have a major role in X3.

B) There was teamwork in X1. In X2 it was mainly about a team working with their enemies, which caused a lot of tension and confusion.

C) I agree to some extent about Sabretooth and Deathstrike. I think Singer kind of hinted with Wolverine/Sabretooth's past with Sabre taking Logan's dogtag. However, in terms of his character depiction, I'm inclined to agree with you in that department. I do agree with Lady Deathstrike though.

D) What? There are plenty of stories that have a dark atmosphere in X-Men. I like that Singer made it darker, more intelligent, thought provoking, and emotional at the same time.

Exactly.

To add:
a)The writer actually wrote additional scenes for Cyclops in X2 (because he felt bad that he was in "jail" for a large portion of the movie, but they got deleted for time/audience confusion.) And that end scene of Cyclops, was clearly setting him up.....
b)The stories called for less teamwork in X2. They had to split up to complete the different tasks: but they split up into mini-teams. We just didn't get beaten over the head with "We work as a team. Hold this line. Cue Wolverine's leader speech."
c)Lady D and Sabertooth were misused. They could have been "claw girl" and "claw boy". But at least they had their "moments."
d)I'll take dark and atmoshpery, over a tone similar to the FF. It seemed more cartoony, while a film like Batman Begins seemed gritty and realistic.

Although I think Ratner's direction was good, he was influential in how the actor's delivered their lines, as well as the pacing of the film. And what did he do to the last act?

 

[PowersOfMind]

Ratner shouldnt be blamed. He made a good film with the time frame he was given and had he had more time then I think the film would have been even better.

I try not to get to bent out of shape about it because ALL movie studios are into making money. They ****ship nothing but the almighty dollar. Some just have better methods of getting it.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

he moved the bridge sequence to the third act instead of the second act.

 

[crappymovie]

he moved the bridge sequence to the third act instead of the second act.

What was the second act by the way? Was it the forest scenes? Those weren't really that important, just so that Wolverine could show some "teamwork" when he took on everyone in the forest, and proclaim his love for his soulmate, Jean. Maybe they could've immediately just gone to Alcatraz, and made the battle longer, and more complicated (maybe the team first tries to take on Phoenix together, then Logan by himself? Would have made her much mroe powerful....)

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

All i know is that that act was moved to the third act...

 

[X-Maniac]

All i know is that that act was moved to the third act...

Yes, the final act was to have taken place in Washington, at the Worthington HQ. Second act was the bridge being used to free mutants held in Alcatraz but it was felt that the bridge-moving scene was too big and spectacular to be in the middle of the movie. I think they also wanted to save some time on filming by concluding the events at Alcatraz.

As it is, you do get a slightly odd feeling that Leech is held at Alcatraz and yet the curing facility is in Washington, with Dr Rao and Warren's dad going between both places.

I wonder how the final battle would have looked if it were in Washington.

 

[crappymovie]

Yes, the final act was to have taken place in Washington, at the Worthington HQ. Second act was the bridge being used to free mutants held in Alcatraz but it was felt that the bridge-moving scene was too big and spectacular to be in the middle of the movie. I think they also wanted to save some time on filming by concluding the events at Alcatraz.

I think the original final act would have been a little more interesting - Magneto uses the bridge so that all the freed mutants can cross the water. A bridging of the gap between the humans and the mutants that they held captive - cool. I agree that the scene was too big for the middle of the movie - but they could have used Phoenix as the BIG spectacle of the third act (maybe, they could have cut down some of the bridge effects instead, and put in a team vs. phoenix fight.) Also, the battle in Washington may have been less "dramatic", because Alcatraz looked like a battlefield etc., but some amazing battles happened at the Liberty and Alkakli lake in X1 and X2, so I'm sure they could have worked around some interesting set pieces. (but I think the battles would have been a little more "strategic" instead of just big displays of powers...it would have separated the team.)

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Exactly.

To add:
a)The writer actually wrote additional scenes for Cyclops in X2 (because he felt bad that he was in "jail" for a large portion of the movie, but they got deleted for time/audience confusion.) And that end scene of Cyclops, was clearly setting him up.....
b)The stories called for less teamwork in X2. They had to split up to complete the different tasks: but they split up into mini-teams. We just didn't get beaten over the head with "We work as a team. Hold this line. Cue Wolverine's leader speech."
c)Lady D and Sabertooth were misused. They could have been "claw girl" and "claw boy". But at least they had their "moments."
d)I'll take dark and atmoshpery, over a tone similar to the FF. It seemed more cartoony, while a film like Batman Begins seemed gritty and realistic.

Although I think Ratner's direction was good, he was influential in how the actor's delivered their lines, as well as the pacing of the film. And what did he do to the last act?

I wasn't aware that he did anything with the third act.

 

[Fanticon]

Okay i've some insider info...a friend of mine in LA went to a special writers-to-be screening of X3, held by Simon and Zak....my friend said they were very cool and went on to trash FOX left and right, heres why........

Simon and Zak were hired on to write...FOX officials approached each of them separately and said something along the lines of...Okay we'd like to see your draft of the X3 script we may not use it because there are several writers working on this for us but we will still pay you...this was a flat out lie about there being more than a handful of writers....it was either Simon or Zak who found out they were indeed the only 2 writers working on the script...they approached thier agents, neither one wanted to lose the job or hand in script that would later go through all these other changes...so Zak and Simon joined together to write the exact same script to turn into FOX...I'm not sure how it all played out but they really ensured that no one else would be able to touch thier script...except maybe once it was finalized the directors could make changes...Simon and Zak told FOX at some point that they knew there were no other writers and I think threatened to walk away from the gig if they weren't given some kind of control...FOX agreed to make them head writers but did ofcourse give them a few direct orders to write Cyclops out of the script...Simon and Zak also told this audience of aspiring writers that studios like FOX do this all the time...they'll tell you they want your script and you will get paid...but, your script and several others all get turned in and they combine the best of each script handed in...the fact that Simon and Zak tried to stop this from happening and succeeded makes me a little proud of their small victory...however, if they indeed were the main writers then they are to blame for a some bad dialogue and a few "how did they get their?" plotholes...as for being told, once they cornered FOX into allowing them to write the script together, to write off certain characters...well, I blame FOX ofcourse.
So, give Zak and Simon a little more credit for trying to fight for this film to be true and as good as the originals...although I am not a fan of some of thier previous work, I am glad that we had them...because it was gonna be thier two separate scripts then a bunch of corporate hired proof readers who would tweak, change, and re-edit the entire script to FOX's satisfaction...a bunch faceless no name english majors who flip through each page and cut out stuff that fits a budget the studio wants to support.
hope you liked that little tid bit...unfortunately my friend who told me all this didn't really ask the hard hitting questions because he doesn't know much about X-men nor had he seen X1 or X2, but he was there for the writing seminar and met and talked with Kinberg and Penn and said they were cool as hell, and he appreciated that now that it was all done and over with they still weren't afraid to bash the studio a little.

 

[CapBeerCino]

Okay i've some insider info...a friend of mine in LA went to a special writers-to-be screening of X3, held by Simon and Zak....my friend said they were very cool and went on to trash FOX left and right, heres why........

Simon and Zak were hired on to write...FOX officials approached each of them separately and said something along the lines of...Okay we'd like to see your draft of the X3 script we may not use it because there are several writers working on this for us but we will still pay you...this was a flat out lie about there being more than a handful of writers....it was either Simon or Zak who found out they were indeed the only 2 writers working on the script...they approached thier agents, neither one wanted to lose the job or hand in script that would later go through all these other changes...so Zak and Simon joined together to write the exact same script to turn into FOX...I'm not sure how it all played out but they really ensured that no one else would be able to touch thier script...except maybe once it was finalized the directors could make changes...Simon and Zak told FOX at some point that they knew there were no other writers and I think threatened to walk away from the gig if they weren't given some kind of control...FOX agreed to make them head writers but did ofcourse give them a few direct orders to write Cyclops out of the script...Simon and Zak also told this audience of aspiring writers that studios like FOX do this all the time...they'll tell you they want your script and you will get paid...but, your script and several others all get turned in and they combine the best of each script handed in...the fact that Simon and Zak tried to stop this from happening and succeeded makes me a little proud of their small victory...however, if they indeed were the main writers then they are to blame for a some bad dialogue and a few "how did they get their?" plotholes...as for being told, once they cornered FOX into allowing them to write the script together, to write off certain characters...well, I blame FOX ofcourse.
So, give Zak and Simon a little more credit for trying to fight for this film to be true and as good as the originals...although I am not a fan of some of thier previous work, I am glad that we had them...because it was gonna be thier two separate scripts then a bunch of corporate hired proof readers who would tweak, change, and re-edit the entire script to FOX's satisfaction...a bunch faceless no name english majors who flip through each page and cut out stuff that fits a budget the studio wants to support.
hope you liked that little tid bit...unfortunately my friend who told me all this didn't really ask the hard hitting questions because he doesn't know much about X-men nor had he seen X1 or X2, but he was there for the writing seminar and met and talked with Kinberg and Penn and said they were cool as hell, and he appreciated that now that it was all done and over with they still weren't afraid to bash the studio a little.

Interesting... But I'm not sure what to make of it. Sounds like the production was really messed up.
This movie could have been a real train wreck, so I guess someone did something right.