The Avengers Why all the cross-over hate?

[J.Howlett]

When it comes to this whole DC vs Marvel debate, along with the cross over criticism, it seems to me that people tend to forget that DC has done other films that have been fairly good to great off of their imprints titles.

I never see films such as V for Vendetta, Watchmen (Ultimate Cut-second best comic book movie ever), Constantine, etc., etc. being in the conversation.

From '04 to '08, DC's had Constantine, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, V for Vendetta, the Dark Knight, and Watchmen.

Yes, DC's had the Losers, Jonah Hex, and Green Lantern (I liked it) recently but those six films I mentioned easily stand up against the six best Marvel films starting in '04. Hell, RED was very fun.

It's not always about the big characters. I like the fact that DC/WB has taken their one-off graphic novels and made films out of them.

This is why I've always felt that the quality of the work between the two companies is fairly even if you look at all the titles they've done starting in the new era of this genre which began with the release of Blade in '98.

Marvel was king from '98 to '04. From '04 to '08, I think that belongs to DC. From after July of '08 to now, it's Marvel's game again.

 

[hatebox]

So, directly addressing someone with a derogatory name...Yeah, that's called flaming.

Shadowlord X is a troll who never adds anything worthy to a discussion. Ignore him.

 

[Shadowlord X]

@ Mr. T

A Married with children fan like myself?

 

[Iron_Stark]

When it comes to this whole DC vs Marvel debate, along with the cross over criticism, it seems to me that people tend to forget that DC has done other films that have been fairly good to great off of their imprints titles.

I never see films such as V for Vendetta, Watchmen (Ultimate Cut-second best comic book movie ever), Constantine, etc., etc. being in the conversation.

From '04 to '08, DC's had Constantine, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, V for Vendetta, the Dark Knight, and Watchmen.

Yes, DC's had the Losers, Jonah Hex, and Green Lantern (I liked it) recently but those six films I mentioned easily stand up against the six best Marvel films starting in '04. Hell, RED was very fun.

It's not always about the big characters. I like the fact that DC/WB has taken their one-off graphic novels and made films out of them.

This is why I've always felt that the quality of the work between the two companies is fairly even if you look at all the titles they've done starting in the new era of this genre which began with the release of Blade in '98.

Marvel was king from '98 to '04. From '04 to '08, I think that belongs to DC. From after July of '08 to now, it's Marvel's game again.

I'm going to post FACTS, not OPINIONS

Watchmen - even though it was liked by critics, it bombed and financially effed Warner Brothers - failure

Constantine - hated by critics, bombed in the B.O. - failure

Superman Returns - liked by critics, but a colossal failure at the B.O. considering how much it cost to make - failure, if it wasn't then there would've been no need for a reboot.

V for Vendetta - critics liked it and didn't disappoint in the B.O., well, at least there's there's one.

Now tell me, how exactly is WB/DC king in making cbm when all they have is two Batman movies and one graphic novel movie then didn't fail financially or critically?

 

[T-CLIPSE]

From '04 to '08, DC's had Constantine, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, V for Vendetta, the Dark Knight, and Watchmen.

Don't forget that Halle Berry 'Catwoman' (2004) garbage.

 

[Lord]

I'm going to post FACTS, not OPINIONS

Watchmen - even though it was liked by critics, it bombed and financially effed Warner Brothers - failure

Lol, watchmen wasn't liked be critics, it had 40 something percent, it was mostly like by fans but not critics

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Lol, watchmen wasn't liked be critics, it had 40 something percent, it was mostly like by fans but not critics

not even by most of the fans. It lacked everything that made the GN great.
The same can be said about V. As a movie it might have worked. As an adaptation it was terrible.

 

[Bathead]

Yeah, that's not funny at all. Not to mention, are you gonna start calling every poster that comes in here Al Bundy #2, 3, 4, etc just because they think TDK is a better movie than anything Marvel's put out so far?

That'll really support your argument t:



Do you even bother to read through the posts in a thread before you post a reply?

For the third time, I don't like DC.

All the comic books that I own are Marvel comics.

What I do like is great movies. The Dark Knight was a great movie. While I enjoyed all of Marvel's movies, they're far from great.

That's the root of this discussion.

Bashing Nolan and TDK only reduces the weight of your argument because you're technically advocating that the best in the genre [arguably] isn't the best just because when compared to Marvel's films it comes out on top.

I understand "the nature of the comic crossover design" and while it may be fun to see all these heroes share the same universe cinematically, its diminished the quality of each of their individual ventures. That's a general consensus too, not just my own opinion.



Read the post below. Some of the people here advocating against TDK are actually trying to use the escape route of "Its not a superhero movie, so it shouldn't be compared to Marvel's films".





Exactly

This whole "You can't compare Marvel's movies to TDK because Batman isn't a superhero" argument is crap. And if I just remove TDK from the equation, X2, SM2 and X-Men First Class are still superior to the Marvel Studios movies. What's the excuse for that?



Not really



Since you apparently just came here to make a statement rather than reply to someone's posts - because you clearly haven't read through the thread at all, I don't like DC.

I like great movies. Apocalypse Now, The Tree of Life, There Will Be Blood, A Clockwork Orange, Naked Lunch, Dead Man, Black Swan, The Dark Knight.

My point of view is that I like great movies. If I start saying Apocalypse Now is not a great movie just because I'm mad that people keep saying its better than Weekend at Bernie's, I'm not only reducing weight in my argument but I'm fooling myself.

If you're gonna show support for Marvel's movies, try doing it objectively

You don't think TDK's the best in the genre? Fine. You're entitled to that opinion.

But don't go around telling everyone else that opposing your sentiment makes them "DC fanboys trying to prove whos D*%* is bigger."

Well, I am a HUGE DC fan, but I am also a Marvel Fan, and I agree with you 100% on every point. I really don't get why we can't have a discussion like this without having some kind of p****ing contest between DC and Marvel fans. It's stupid and childish and totally unecessary.
For the record, I have enjoyed the little references to the other Marvel heroes in the movies so far. And that is nothing more than my preference and my opinion. If you don't agree, that's fine.

 

[T-CLIPSE]

I really don't get why we can't have a discussion like this without having some kind of p****ing contest between DC and Marvel fans. It's stupid and childish and totally unecessary

The whole p***ing contest started when one poster came on and said the crossover hate comes from "fans of certain Distinguished Companies who's owners lack talent and imagination to have their characters exist in a shared universe" and then a DC guy came on and said "if it was a matter of lack of talent and imagination then they would not have produced The Dark Knight", and that's when the p***ing started.

Now when I first read that post about the lack of imagination from the first guy I KNEW someone was going to bring up that Dark Knight as a way by which to defend Warner Bros. and it did, truth be told I AGREE with the guy who said that it's a lack of imagination from the owners of a movie studio who owns one of the largest catalogues of superheroes but they still let another comic company who had to license their characters to other movie studios FOR YEARS beat them to an idea that has been COMMON PLACE in comics for decades, THE CHARACTER CROSSOVER EVENT.

I mean come on it doesn't take a genius to figure that's the next stage of evolutuion in comicbook motion pictures, why did Warners sleep (still sleeping) on it for so long? Why did they let Marvel come along (OUT OF BANKRUPTCY NO LESS) and show those imbeciles how it's done. I mean good god!, outside of Watchmen and League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen they don't even have any team movies to speak of. Marvel has four X-Men movies and two Fantastic Four movies soon to have The Avengers. Where are the Teen Titans, Young Justice, The Outsiders, Legion of Superheroes ,The Doom Patrol, The Omega Men, hell I'll even settle for The Metal Men, they can do damn something, some kind of team movie but no, they want to keep doing Superman and Batman films.

Great day! Warners doesn't even know how to introduce a new hero from an already existing movie, Marvel even had to show them how to do that. They introduced Nightstalkers in Blade, Silver Surfer in Fantastic Four, Elektra in Daredevil, War Machine and Black Widow in Iron Man, they even had to teach them how to do a spin off from a movie with Elektra from Daredevil, and a spin off with Wolverine from X-Men, even X-Men First Class is a kind of a spin off, eventually Deadpool will be spun off, War Machine may be spun off, maybe even Black Widow and Nick Fury, hell we may even yet still see Venom DESPITE a Spider-Man reboot.

And now Marvel is teaching them something else, how to put their characters in a shared universe and then bring them all together as a single team, wow what a novel idea I wonder how a comicbook campany came up with that idea?, wait I know how they came up with that because,.... THAT'S THE WAY IT HAPPENS IN A COMICBOOK, great day man it doesn't take a genius to figure it out and as far as I'm concerned Marvel is taking those guys to school.

IT IS A LACK OF IMAGINATION to let this former bankrupt company lead the way in what is obvious character progression, growth, and motion picture evolution that I'm sure Warners will eventually try to emmulate in some fashion, and when Warner's precious Nolan says goodbye to the Bat franchise I say good luck to 'em, don't cry too much, try to keep up and try not to drop too many Green bombs along the way.

 

[Chewy]

...

lol

 

[Iron_Stark]

Wow...


Ouch. Haha

 

[Iron_Stark]

Lol, watchmen wasn't liked be critics, it had 40 something percent, it was mostly like by fans but not critics

I was going off Rottentomatoes.

 

[Raiden]

IT IS A LACK OF IMAGINATION to let this former bankrupt company lead the way in what is obvious character progression, growth, and motion picture evolution that I'm sure Warners will eventually try to emmulate in some fashion, and when Warner's precious Nolan says goodbye to the Bat franchise I say good luck to 'em, don't cry too much, try to keep up and try not to drop too many Green bombs along the way.

The different I see between WB and Marvel Studios is that, while the former is a movie studio that makes movies based on superheroes, the latter is a comic book company that makes movies featuring their superheroes. And while WB may treat superheroes as just another tentpole movies in their summer schedule, Marvel perceives their superhero movies as their bread-and-butter, and they don't have other franchises like Harry Potter to fall back on. Therefore, they'd focus all their resources on them, unlike WB which only recently creates a special division to serve as a liason between DC and WB. If WB didn't have Chris Nolan, who knows what would be the current state of DC superhero movies?

 

[T-CLIPSE]

And while WB may treat superheroes as just another tentpole movies in their summer schedule, Marvel perceives their superhero movies as their bread-and-butter, and they don't have other franchises like Harry Potter to fall back on. Therefore, they'd focus all their resources on them, unlike WB which only recently creates a special division to serve as a liason between DC and WB. If WB didn't have Chris Nolan, who knows what would be the current state of DC superhero movies?

Their current state would be like Batman and Robin, Superman Returns and Green Lantern.....garbage.

And I agree with what you're saying about the "bread and butter" aspect of Marvel nurturing superheroes VS Warners nurturing Harry Potter, but I still disagree with that mentality. Warners still owns those characters and I myself would be more concerned with building my own house rather than trying to help J.K. Rowling build hers.

 

[Raiden]

Their current state would be like Batman and Robin, Superman Returns and Green Lantern.....garbage.

And I agree with what you're saying about the "bread and butter" aspect of Marvel nurturing superheroes VS Warners nurturing Harry Potter, but I still disagree with that mentality. Warners still owns those characters and I myself would be more concerned with building my own house rather than trying to help J.K. Rowling build hers.

WB's allegiance is to their stockholders, and their profit margin, so while they may be helping J.K. Rowling making millions, they don't really care where the money came from when they have one of the biggest movie franchises in cinematic history. On the other hand, aside from Batman and (to a lesser degree) Superman, they don't have any superhero property that they can trust, much less approach the kind of moneymaking prowess as the Harry Potter series. That's why they have been so reluctant to greenlight movies for WW, Flash, and any non-Superman & Batman movies. Their recent failure with GL will likely reinforce their skepticism toward their superhero properties, but without a Harry Potter to feed their bottom line for the next decade, they may not have a choice but embrace what they have.

 

[Spider-Fan]

End...this...NOW!!!!!

Continued flame war activity will be bad for you. This is not the place for stroking your companies E-cred. This is an Avengers forum. Cease and desist this crap immediately.

 

[Lord]

not even by most of the fans. It lacked everything that made the GN great.
The same can be said about V. As a movie it might have worked. As an adaptation it was terrible.

As a movie it was liked by most critics and i have friend that consider it one of their favourite movies
The crossover if used too much can harm the solo movies
Sorry if i continued the flame war, i just noticed your post now

 

[C. Lee]

End...this...NOW!!!!!

Continued flame war activity will be bad for you. This is not the place for stroking your companies E-cred. This is an Avengers forum. Cease and desist this crap immediately.

I say we just go ahead and start putting people on probation for continuing the stupid Marvel/Dc war....they've had enough warnings.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I agree with this 100%

 

[Lord]

I say we just go ahead and start putting people on probation for continuing the stupid Marvel/Dc war....they've had enough warnings.

You should see the other thread about captain america

 

[C. Lee]

You should see the other thread about captain america

There are hundreds of threads about Captain America...be specific.

 

[Mr.T]

@ Mr. T

A Married with children fan like myself?

Absolutely!
The show is funnier now that I've been married for 8 years. I'm not too keen on the stuff that occurred after the Seven kids introduction. But everything before then is comedy gold. MWC was a groundbreaking comedy, IMO.

 

[Lord]

There are hundreds of threads about Captain America...be specific.

It's a thread about how the guy thinks captain america was better than TDK but things have stoped so there's no problem there now.
Sorry if i bothered you, i wasn't expecting you to become interested in another flame war

 

[Raiden]

It's a thread about how the guy thinks captain america was better than TDK but things have stoped so there's no problem there now.
Sorry if i bothered you, i wasn't expecting you to become interested in another flame war

That thread is now locked.

 

[Lord]

That thread is now locked.

oh, that's why talk there stopped, my bad