The Avengers Why all the cross-over hate?

[Punisher_MAX]

Exactly. When Marvel Studios can produce a film that people seriously talk about being an Oscar contender in non-special effects categories, we'll talk about how great Marvel Studios makes comic book films. Right now, everything is going to be compared to The Dark Knight, and for most, nothing Marvel Studios has produced stacks up. The Dark Knight challenged everyone's preconceptions of not only what a superhero movie could be, but what they should be. I do love Marvel Studios' films, but, even as a Marvel/Disney shareholder, I cannot honestly say that any of the Marvel Studios films did that.

TDK is boring, deal with it.

I blame that cursed movie for creating a "uber realism" movement. It takes the fun out of a "Comic Book" character. Batman was a boring protagonist and I had more fun when the Joker was on screen. And for all the praise the movie gets im pretty sure, if i remember correctly, it deviates A LOT from the Comics.

If i want uber realistic, dark and gritty in my Marvel movies i will campaign for a Punisher MAX movie that will **** on anything "smart" in TDK.

not everything has to be TDK. I enjoyed Iron Man a whole lot more because THAT is what a superhero movie should be. Fun, Smart and a good time.

 

[Lord]

The Dark Knight was better, now lets return to the crossover hate discussion

 

[Punisher_MAX]

The Dark Knight was better, now lets return to the crossover hate discussion

thats subjective, Iron Man gets better the more times i see it while The Dark Knight gets increasingly boring.

as for crossovers i dont see the hate either, it just makes it possible to explore new areas in CB movies.

 

[Lord]

thats subjective, Iron Man gets better the more times i see it while The Dark Knight gets increasingly boring.

as for crossovers i dont see the hate either, it just makes it possible to explore new areas in CB movies.

The story, the villains, it was just everything better, i can see how you prefer iron man but tastes are different than perseption, for example, i know the tree of life is a masterpiece but id rather see iron man because its more entertaining. now lets go back to the crossover hate, i feel bad for talking about TDK in a marvel thread

 

[Godzilla2014]

TDK is boring, deal with it.

I blame that cursed movie for creating a "uber realism" movement. It takes the fun out of a "Comic Book" character. Batman was a boring protagonist and I had more fun when the Joker was on screen. And for all the praise the movie gets im pretty sure, if i remember correctly, it deviates A LOT from the Comics.

If i want uber realistic, dark and gritty in my Marvel movies i will campaign for a Punisher MAX movie that will **** on anything "smart" in TDK.

not everything has to be TDK. I enjoyed Iron Man a whole lot more because THAT is what a superhero movie should be. Fun, Smart and a good time.

Completely disagree. I find TDK to be a very engaging two and a half hour thrill-ride. The supposed "uber realistic movement" started along time before TDK came out.
A superhero movie should, in my opinion, be a good movie that's about a superhero, which I would say BB, TDK, Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America all are, in my opinion. I am fine with a gritty, neo-noir, crime drama tragedy like The Dark Knight or a good, fun time like Iron Man, so long as it works for the character in question.

 

[Godzilla2014]

As for the cross-over hate, even though DC is falling down on the job, I really don't think it has to do with a lack of a DC Cinematic Universe at all. It's that they've relied on Batman and Superman and then played it too safe with Green Lantern instead of realizing the franchise's potential to make something that stood out from the crowd.

 

[hatebox]

TDK is boring, deal with it.

I blame that cursed movie for creating a "uber realism" movement.

Utter BS - Comic book movies are just as light and breezy since TDK came out. Its tone remains the exception, not the norm.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

I still think the 89 Batman got it right as to how Batman should be portrayed.

 

[Lord]

I still think the 89 Batman got it right as to how Batman should be portrayed.

I think Begins and TDK go Bruce Wayne how he should be portrayed,

 

[Godzilla2014]

Utter BS - Comic book movies are just as light and breezy since TDK came out. Its tone remains the exception, not the norm.

Agreed. I am surprised that more comic book movies haven't tried to rip The Dark Knight off as of yet, since it is the third highest grossing film of all time at the moment.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

Agreed. I am surprised that more comic book movies haven't tried to rip The Dark Knight off as of yet, since it is the third highest grossing film of all time at the moment.

because few characters in the comic book world can live in that kind of tone.

most Marvel Knights characters come to mind.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Agreed. I am surprised that more comic book movies haven't tried to rip The Dark Knight off as of yet, since it is the third highest grossing film of all time at the moment.

Unless they plan on having a lead actor in the movie die in real life before the release, there's no reason to.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

I just wanna say I have NOTHING against the idea of these films interconnecting with each other. Hell, I think it's genius! All I have to say is this: The Avengers movie BETTER not suck!

 

[hatebox]

because few characters in the comic book world can live in that kind of tone.

Exactly - so what's the problem?

 

[Godzilla2014]

Unless they plan on having a lead actor in the movie die in real life before the release, there's no reason to.

Really? You are going to credit Heath Ledger's death with The Dark Knight's success? If that were enough to generate that kind of box office, The Crow would have made several hundred million dollars at the box office because of Brandon Lee's death. TDK was successful because it was good to most people so they saw it multiple times.

 

[hatebox]

Really? You are going to credit Heath Ledger's death with The Dark Knight's success?

People who have already decided Ledger's death was the primary reason for TDK's success are not worth arguing with, I assure you.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Really? You are going to credit Heath Ledger's death with The Dark Knight's success? If that were enough to generate that kind of box office, The Crow would have made several hundred million dollars at the box office because of Brandon Lee's death. TDK was successful because it was good to most people so they saw it multiple times.

I am.

Remind me again how well Batman Begins performed at the Box Office.

Ledger's death combined with his absolutely stellar performance (after being an oddball selection) was the reason. I don't know how you can possibly deny that. Anyone who does, fails to understand publicity, even the somber, negative kind. Post-mortem hysteria.

You can't even begin to compare the Crow. It didn't have the inherit fan base already there.

 

[Godzilla2014]

People who have already decided Ledger's death was the primary reason for TDK's success are not worth arguing with, I assure you.

Perhaps, but should I let such sophistry by without questioning it?

I am.

Remind me again how well Batman Begins performed at the Box Office.

Ledger's death combined with his absolutely stellar performance (after being an oddball selection) was the reason. I don't know how you can possibly deny that. Anyone who does, fails to understand publicity, even the somber, negative kind. Post-mortem hysteria.

You can't even begin to compare the Crow. It didn't have the inherit fan base already there.

Sure, Batman Begins did not do nearly as well at the box office as The Dark Knight did but to say that Heath Ledger's death is the only reason why is asinine. Did you forget the massive viral marketing campaign TDK had that BB did not? Did you forget that BB came after B&R, while TDK came after BB? Did you forget that TDK is considered to be revolutionary, unlike most every other superhero movie?
Morbid curiosity would account for one viewing, but you don't get billions without a lot of repeat viewings.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Sure, Batman Begins did not do nearly as well at the box office as The Dark Knight did but to say that Heath Ledger's death is the only reason why is asinine. Did you forget the massive viral marketing campaign TDK had that BB did not? Did you forget that BB came after B&R, while TDK came after BB? Did you forget that TDK is considered to be revolutionary, unlike most every other superhero movie?
Morbid curiosity would account for one viewing, but you don't get billions without a lot of repeat viewings.

You're severely understating the impact of a BREAKTHROUGH PERFORMANCE coupled with an untimely death. You'd have to be living in a cave to not understand the publicity you get. You mean to tell me a freaking viral campaign is going to be the reason this movie from $372 million in it's first installment to $1.01 billion? That's just insulting to one's intelligence.

Fact is, TDK didn't do anything different in it's formula than BB. They both were presented in Nolan's sense of realism. Just go back and start reading all the articles on Ledger's death and the amazing recounts of his performance leading up to and after the release of the movie. It was the perfect storm.

 

[Godzilla2014]

You're severely understating the impact of a BREAKTHROUGH PERFORMANCE coupled with an untimely death. You'd have to be living in a cave to not understand the publicity you get. You mean to tell me a freaking viral campaign is going to be the reason this movie from $372 million in it's first installment to $1.01 billion? That's just insulting to one's intelligence.

Fact is, TDK didn't do anything different in it's formula than BB. They both were presented in Nolan's sense of realism. Just go back and start reading all the articles on Ledger's death and the amazing recounts of his performance leading up to the release of the movie. It was the perfect storm.

The BREAKTHROUGH PERFORMANCE and its impact on box office, I'm not denying, not even the death, but to say that is the only reason a movie makes a billion dollars is sophistry. There are a lot of reasons the movie made a billion.

TDK does many things differently from BB. Did BB make a meaningful statement about terrorism, law, order, and justice? Did BB deal with themes like the necessity of truth, terrorism, law, order, et cetera? Did BB blend elements of neo-noir, crime drama, terrorist suspense thriller, tragedy, and even morality tales for a very different experience? Did BB have a villain that makes Hannibal Lector and Anton Chigurh cower in fear? No it didn't. BB is rather pedestrian in comparison to TDK.

 

[Rock Sexton]

The BREAKTHROUGH PERFORMANCE and its impact on box office, I'm not denying, not even the death, but to say that is the only reason a movie makes a billion dollars is sophistry. There are a lot of reasons the movie made a billion.

TDK does many things differently from BB. Did BB make a meaningful statement about terrorism, law, order, and justice? Did BB deal with themes like the necessity of truth, terrorism, law, order, et cetera? Did BB blend elements of neo-noir, crime drama, terrorist suspense thriller, tragedy, and even morality tales for a very different experience? Did BB have a villain that makes Hannibal Lector and Anton Chigurh cower in fear? No it didn't. BB is rather pedestrian in comparison to TDK.

“More people will come to see it because of his death,” said Bill Ramey, founder of the fan Web site Batman-on-Film.com. “No doubt some people may be apprehensive about seeing it because there may be a little ghoulish factor about it. But I’m betting that more people now kind of look at it as a tribute to him, and the biggest tribute you could give someone is to go see it and enjoy his performance.”

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23831...nment/t/ledgers-death-fans-mania-dark-knight/

Terrorism, law, order, justice .... these are themes in plenty of other films. There is nothing fresh about them.

You bring up the villain and that is precisely my point. The entire industry and onlookers wondered how this casting of Ledger out of left-field would stack up to Jack Nicholson's Joker. Ledger invested himself so heavily into the character that it made Wesley Snipes method acting for Blade seem like a part time shift. It really has nothing to do with the villainous deeds in the film, but the man playing him .... how well he played him .... and his unfortunate, untimely death.

Controversy and publicity 101.

 

[Godzilla2014]

“More people will come to see it because of his death,” said Bill Ramey, founder of the fan Web site Batman-on-Film.com. “No doubt some people may be apprehensive about seeing it because there may be a little ghoulish factor about it. But I’m betting that more people now kind of look at it as a tribute to him, and the biggest tribute you could give someone is to go see it and enjoy his performance.”

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23831...nment/t/ledgers-death-fans-mania-dark-knight/

Terrorism, law, order, justice .... these are themes in plenty of other films. There is nothing fresh about them.

You bring up the villain and that is precisely my point. The entire industry and onlookers wondered how this casting of Ledger out of left-field would stack up to Jack Nicholson's Joker. Ledger invested himself so heavily into the character that it made Wesley Snipes method acting for Blade seem like a part time shift. It really has nothing to do with the villain deeds in the film, but the man playing him .... how well he played him .... and his unfortunately, untimely death.

Yes, those themes are in plenty of other films, but they weren't in BB, which was all that matters when you said that TDK followed the same formula as BB.

Also, Heath Ledger's performance I consider separately from his death, because it would be the same if he lived as if he lived. Follow? I'm not denying that TDK made some money as a result of Heath's unfortunate and untimely death, but it's not the sole factor for it being the highest grossing superhero film of all time. There are many other factors you are ignoring so that you can discredit TDK's earnings and undermine the threat it presents to Marvel Studios' films.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Yes, those themes are in plenty of other films, but they weren't in BB, which was all that matters when you said that TDK followed the same formula as BB.

I was referring to Nolan's sense of realism. I even explicitly said that.

Also, Heath Ledger's performance I consider separately from his death, because it would be the same if he lived as if he lived. Follow? I'm not denying that TDK made some money as a result of Heath's unfortunate and untimely death, but it's not the sole factor for it being the highest grossing superhero film of all time. There are many other factors you are ignoring so that you can discredit TDK's earnings and undermine the threat it presents to Marvel Studios' films.

Let me repeat myself again ..... His PERFORMANCE and his UNTIMELY DEATH propelled this franchise's success to levels that it would otherwise have never seen. It doesn't take more than 10-15 minutes of Google'ing all the articles to get a sense of it and we're not just talking about blogspot posts.

All those other factors you list not translate to nearly 3 times more success than the BO of the first installment. You take away Ledger and what do you have? You think you still have a $1 billion dollar box office smash? Nope.

"There is no question Ledger's death has lent the movie a gravita's it would not have had if Ledger were alive. And he remains the key fixture of the ad campaign, his face emblazoned on as many posters as Batman's."

After Ledger's death, curiosity about his performance — not always driven by the best of impulses — only grew. "It added to a certain mystique about the film," says Steve Mason, box-office analyst at FantasyMoguls.com. While Warner Bros. was anxious about appearing to capitalize on interest in Ledger's death as The Dark Knight's release date approached, it resumed showcasing Ledger in trailers. "The performance is so good, had they not highlighted it, it would have been a mistake," says Paul Dergarabedian, president of box-office analysis firm Media By Numbers.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1824888,00.html#ixzz1Tj1VlrdO

Three of Ledger’s movies charted among the 25 best-selling DVDs on Amazon.com as of Friday afternoon.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/22846...sales-ledger-films-spike-following-his-death/

 

[cherokeesam]

For starters, to suggest that Slumdog was the only Nominee deserving of a Best Picture Nomination is enough for me to know that you're concept of "artistically significant" is way off.

I never said that at all. But thanks for bringing in everybody's best friend, Mr. Straw Man, into the discussion there, Hank Hill. Always the life of the party.

Second, to say that the Academy didn't care about a film it nominated for 8 Awards, 2 of which it won, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense

TDK was nominated entirely for technical awards, plus one (famously posthumous) supporting actor role. The Academy (a) didn't give a **** enough about it to go for big noms like Actor, Director, Picture or even Screenplay, and (b) didn't even go so far as to recognize the technical aspects of the film. They honestly thought *Benajmin Freakin' Button* had better fx, sound, and cinematography.

As for the decision to amplify the amount of Best Picture Nominees, I won't go as far to post 50 articles here on how TDK's Oscar snub for Best Pic influenced the decision, but I'll rather say this instead: do you think you'll make it any less true by refusing to accept the fact that it most certainly is? Because denying the impact of TDK, specially on a message board that focuses on comic book movies, doesn't reduce it in the least bit. Its like going to an NBA forum and saying Michael Jordan was a terrible basketball player.

Denying the fact that the Academy snubbed the hell out of the movie in almost every category except the Let's All Feel Sorry For Heath Ledger Memorial Award doesn't reduce it in the least bit.

Why is it that some people think that by bashing something great they'll make something not so great seem better?

Calling TDK unworthy of Oscar recognition, saying its a complete misrepresentation of what comic book movies should be, it all just baffles me.

I don't call TDK unworthy of Oscar recognition at all. Au contraire --- I think it SHOULD have been nominated. For the BIG awards. And should have WON most of them.

All I'm saying is that THE ACADEMY thought TDK was unworthy of Oscar recognition, beyond tech awards and Heath Ledger.

Denying the fact that the Academy snubbed the hell out of the movie in almost every category except the Let's All Feel Sorry For Heath Ledger Memorial Award doesn't reduce it in the least bit. (Waitaminnit, didn't I already say that? yup)

Exactly. When Marvel Studios can produce a film that people seriously talk about being an Oscar contender in non-special effects categories, we'll talk about how great Marvel Studios makes comic book films.

Why, exactly? Didn't you just read the whole diatribe above that TDK was NOT nominated for anything beyond special effects categories, except for Heath's Supporting Actor nod?

Right now, everything is going to be compared to The Dark Knight, and for most, nothing Marvel Studios has produced stacks up. The Dark Knight challenged everyone's preconceptions of not only what a superhero movie could be, but what they should be. I do love Marvel Studios' films, but, even as a Marvel/Disney shareholder, I cannot honestly say that any of the Marvel Studios films did that.

No, not everything in CBMs is being compared to TDK, nor should it.
Batman is *not* a superhero ---he's a costumed vigilante. Anyone who reads comics understands the difference. Nolan does....that's why he wiped all the glitz and sheen and cheese off the story and made it strictly a crime drama with guys in funny suits.

Marvel, on the other hand, is in the business of making SUPERHERO movies. That's a genre that WB hasn't figured out yet, even with Superman and Green Lantern. SUPERHERO movies are a horse of an entirely different color than Nolan's uber-realist costumed vigilante manifesto.

So no, Marvel's movies are *not* comparable. They're two entirely different genres. It's like trying to compare Lord of the Rings to The Godfather Saga....it's fantasy vs. realism.

 

[UnkillableMick]

So, those Avengers, eh?