Comics Why do people hate Carnage?

[Won '08]

As a foreword, I'm gonna say that Joker is one of my favorite villians of all time, and that clearly Cletus Kasady was influenced by the Joker.

With that said, Carnage has a back-story, and origin, motivation, what have you. He was abused at a young age, being beaten by his mother and his father. Similar to real-life serial killers, Cletus developed sociopathic tendencies and became violent and monstrous himself. After his father killed his mother for beating on Cletus, Cletus turned around and claimed his father murdered his mother for no reason, getting rid of both of his antagonists.

But his story didn't stop there, with his predisposition torwards violence and being under the care of abusive foster parents, schoolmates and adults, cletus snapped completely and reveled in the choas and pain around him and decided he was going to be the one to inflict the chaos upon the world. What was once a boy was now a monster with a black hole for a soul, living only to bring death, choas and Carnage. I've left out many other details, but that's the streamlined version. Add to that his motivation to bring choas and "Free" people from laws and morals, you have a very interesting character.

Joker had one bad day? Cletus had one bad Life.

And that's all BEFORE the symbiote.

 

[Dragon]

As a foreword, I'm gonna say that Joker is one of my favorite villians of all time, and that clearly Cletus Kasady was influenced by the Joker.

With that said, Carnage has a back-story, and origin, motivation, what have you. He was abused at a young age, being beaten by his mother and his father. Similar to real-life serial killers, Cletus developed sociopathic tendencies and became violent and monstrous himself. After his father killed his mother for beating on Cletus, Cletus turned around and claimed his father murdered his mother for no reason, getting rid of both of his antagonists.

But his story didn't stop there, with his predisposition torwards violence and being under the care of abusive foster parents, schoolmates and adults, cletus snapped completely and reveled in the choas and pain around him and decided he was going to be the one to inflict the chaos upon the world. What was once a boy was now a monster with a black hole for a soul, living only to bring death, choas and Carnage. I've left out many other details, but that's the streamlined version. Add to that his motivation to bring choas and "Free" people from laws and morals, you have a very interesting character.

Joker had one bad day? Cletus had one bad Life.

And that's all BEFORE the symbiote.

You see- that's a big part of the problem. That storyline is silly. First off, if both mother and father were abusive to Cletus, the father wouldn't have beaten the mother to death for beating Cletus. She was his co-dependent and enabler. He needed her. Secondly, it's not likely that both would have been abusers. Or at least not in the same manner. For example, he might have been violently abused by his father and sexually abused by his mother. Third, Cletus would not have likely accused his father. With the mother dead, Cletus would have needed a parental figure to remain in the picture. Also abused children often cling to their abuser, hoping to win favor. Fourth, Cletus would not have been abused by EVERYONE and EVERYTHING around him and then become this killing machine. Usually the seeds would have been sown early, and he'd have beome an abuser himself at any early age. If he had received that much abuse throughout his life, he likely would have become very submissive and suffered from bullying throughout his life.

I understand alot of people who are into Carnage started reading him when they were young, so this type of writing appears to be deep. But it really isn't.

 

[Dragon]

Cletus Kasady LOVED murder. And he suddenly aquired a means to kill almost ANYONE he wanted.

Spidey knew the only way to stop him might have been to put him down, but even so, he told Eddie (After recruiting his help) "No killing". He was fighting a losing battle.

This is another part of the problem. The stories were silly in the sense of Spidey acting like an idiot for no reason other than to keep churning out more stories with Carnage. As well they were superficial nonsense. A character tha loves killing so he kills.. And that's it?

 

[Won '08]

You see- that's a big part of the problem. That storyline is silly. First off, if both mother and father were abusive to Cletus, the father wouldn't have beaten the mother to death for beating Cletus. She was his co-dependent and enabler. He needed her. Secondly, it's not likely that both would have been abusers. Or at least not in the same manner. For example, he might have been violently abused by his father and sexually abused by his mother. Third, Cletus would not have likely accused his father. With the mother dead, Cletus would have needed a parental figure to remain in the picture. Also abused children often cling to their abuser, hoping to win favor. Fourth, Cletus would not have been abused by EVERYONE and EVERYTHING around him and then become this killing machine. Usually the seeds would have been sown early, and he'd have beome an abuser himself at any early age. If he had received that much abuse throughout his life, he likely would have become very submissive and suffered from bullying throughout his life.

I understand alot of people who are into Carnage started reading him when they were young, so this type of writing appears to be deep. But it really isn't.

Dragon. Seriously. This coming from someone you don't like, but someone who has been within an abusive family, and studied psychological growth and degridation.

The father in Cletus' case was a power hog. He wanted all forms of control over his family. If he couldn't have it, he'd get upset. The father would blame Cletus' reactive behaviour to the beatings on the mother, and the mother would then turn her aggresions onto the son. In this case, it's a sense of "What did I do to make my husband hate me? Oh yes , gave birth" It happens everyday. The father wigged out and snapped. Children in these situations often do blame the remaining parent if they are of a certain age. Cletus was more than competant enough to take a hammer to a dog and enjoy it's suffering. It's more believable and more dictative of fact than anything.

He discovered power within death and fear. He loved the look in the eyes of things or persons he made suffer.

Please pick up Carnage:Mindbomb then check out any site dealing with childhood abuse within a killer's life. Manson you could look up as a nice contradiction to the norm.

There are no boundaries on this subject. Please don't say "Cletus wouldnt have done this if that happend..."

When I was shot I didn't stop going on the block I was shot on, not due to pride, but it was a s simple as me accepting it as life. Others would have trouble going outside the next day. Nothing is black and white when the mind is involved my dude.

 

[Won '08]

This is another part of the problem. The stories were silly in the sense of Spidey acting like an idiot for no reason other than to keep churning out more stories with Carnage. As well they were superficial nonsense. A character tha loves killing so he kills.. And that's it?

You're telling me it's silly that a person who loves killing would go on a killing spree the moment he aquired the means? I'm confused D. What is it that you find to be so superficial about a man who literally worships , not death, but murder?

 

[Cyclops]

My fault

Your fault? I was agreeing with you.

 

[Dragon]

Dragon. Seriously. This coming from someone you don't like, but someone who has been within an abusive family, and studied psychological growth and degridation.

So have I, which is why I'm coming down on the wirintg in this manner. And I hope you don't mean that I don't like you- I had a similar conversation with Spidey In A Tree over this- I'm not so petty as to dislike someone because we disagree about comic books.

The father in Cletus' case was a power hog. He wanted all forms of control over his family. If he couldn't have it, he'd get upset. The father would blame Cletus' reactive behaviour to the beatings on the mother, and the mother would then turn her aggresions onto the son. In this case, it's a sense of "What did I do to make my husband hate me? Oh yes , gave birth" It happens everyday.

You see, this is a contradiction. If the mother was submissive to the father to the point where she sought his favor, she wouldn't have beaten Cletus unless he instructed her to. And the father's need for power was fulfilled. He had the mother under his thumb. Cletus was likey terrified of him. He wouldn't want to lose either of them because he fed off of them. He might have beaten her, but not to death unless it was accidental or there was a trigger. Beating Cletus is not a likely trigger.

The father wigged out and snapped. Children in these situations often do blame the remaining parent if they are of a certain age.

Sure, if they have some distance from the abusive parent and belief that they'll be protected. But that wasn't the case in that story.

Cletus was more than competant enough to take a hammer to a dog and enjoy it's suffering. It's more believable and more dictative of fact than anything.He discovered power within death and fear. He loved the look in the eyes of things or persons he made suffer.

Most serial murderers are abusive to small animals as children. It's part of three childhood behaviors which also includes bed wetting and fire-starting. It has nothing to do with competence. A child understands pain from birth.

Please pick up Carnage:Mindbomb then check out any site dealing with childhood abuse within a killer's life. Manson you could look up as a nice contradiction to the norm.

Manson wasn't a contradiction. He came from a broken home, with a prostitue mother. He was more likely than not abused and became involved in juvenile crime. Anyway, Manson wasn't exactly a serial killer. He, being a cult leader had a slightly different dynamic going on.

There are no boundaries on this subject. Please don't say "Cletus wouldnt have done this if that happend..."

There are parallels. So much so that there are standardized tests for determing socipathic behavior. Of course there are exceptions. Jeffrey Dahmer came from a loving home. However, he might have suffered from damage to the limbic region of his brain.

When I was shot I didn't stop going on the block I was shot on, not due to pride, but it was a s simple as me accepting it as life.

I'm fascinated. I know quite a few folks like you.

Others would have trouble going outside the next day. Nothing is black and white when the mind is involved my dude.

Agreed. Nothing is black and white and there are exceptions and bendings to every rule. But the problem for me reagrding Carnage is that too many rules are bent. One second he's written like "Chucky" from the Child's play movies rip-off and then they're using pseudo-psychology to explain his motivations.

Another problem is that they were wrting too many psychos and serial killers at the time. The concept became pointless and cliche.

 

[Dragon]

You're telling me it's silly that a person who loves killing would go on a killing spree the moment he aquired the means? I'm confused D. What is it that you find to be so superficial about a man who literally worships , not death, but murder?

I'm saying the writing was superficial, not the idea of a sociopath indulging his desires.

 

[Silver Sable]

Your fault? I was agreeing with you.

Sorry I thought you were disagreeing with me.I'm horrible about what people mean what they say

 

[Cyclops]

You should probably lay off the hallucinogenics. They're messin' wit' yo brain.

 

[bulok]

I'm saying the writing was superficial, not the idea of a sociopath indulging his desires.

I think this gentleman hit the nail right on the head.

 

[LarryLegend]

Go Dragon go.

 

[Symbiotica]

All this arguing is meaningless, anyways since even Cletus himself casts doubt on whether or not he was actually abused; and if he was, it was likely by one parent only: his mother.

He makes a point of conveying how much he enjoyed his father's helpless rage on the witness-stand when Cletus refused to help clear him by admitting he [the father] was acting to protect him by killing Cletus' mother.

He likes to mess with people's heads and he enjoys all attention focused upon himself. Therefore it is in his best interest to create sympathy for himself by insinuating there was abuse, by one or both parents. What he was doing was ****ing with people, first and foremost Ashley Kafka. He likes the drama, and that is actually pretty consistent with the narcissistic personality.

It DOES NOT MATTER whether or not his claims make sense, or have a pathological basis in fact. The only fact that need be remembered is simple: Cletus Kasady is crazier than the proverbial outhouse rat. Naturally his claims do not make sense! He's nuts.

People act like this issue of his past "abuse" is this great big issue of logic, i.e. the Sins Past thing. It's not: in this case, we have all the evidence we need. He's nuts. Nothing he says can be trusted to be fact.

Gwen Stacy was -not- nuts, so what happened there made no sense. Here, we have an out. Cletus likes to kill. He got an early start with his entire immediate family, the family dog and his grandmother. Case closed, pretty much.

I'm saying the writing was superficial, not the idea of a sociopath indulging his desires.

Of course it was "superficial"! This is MARVEL, do you really think they're going to go all in-depth with a serial-killer's motivation? Hah, we were lucky to get the aforementioned stand-alones. They can't get all in-depth, not a company that mainly caters to kids. Therefore I cry "bogus" in this instance. People act like Marvel should have been issuing the Kasady version of "American Psycho."

Do you really think something like that ever had a prayer of being published? Ha, not hardly - but you cannot blame that on Carnage, either.

 

[Silver Sable]

Like Sym said

 

[Silver Sable]

You should probably lay off the hallucinogenics. They're messin' wit' yo brain.

Your right

 

[Won '08]

I'm saying the writing was superficial, not the idea of a sociopath indulging his desires.

Very good argument. Looking at it from a perspective of a reader I get exactly what you're sayin'.

And when I say you dont like me.....I'm sayin'....well. You know I'm Shy- - - right?

 

[Won '08]

All this arguing is meaningless, anyways since even Cletus himself casts doubt on whether or not he was actually abused; and if he was, it was likely by one parent only: his mother.

Carnage:Mindbomb.

No one here read that? Seriously?

 

[Cyclops]

I have never heard of this Carnage: Mindbomb nor have I seen the excessively numerous times it has been mentioned in this thread.

 

[Won '08]

I have never heard of this Carnage: Mindbomb nor have I seen the excessively numerous times it has been mentioned in this thread.

Your sarcasm matches well with your choice of heroes as a handle.

Bland.

 

[Symbiotica]

I have never heard of this Carnage: Mindbomb nor have I seen the excessively numerous times it has been mentioned in this thread.

Whose fault is that? Not ours, certainly.

When someone starts a thread asking why people hate Carnage, and others pretty much come in here and say "Meh.... always hated him, never read anything to do with him, really; I just don't LIKE him. Plus he has no character development at all," what do you expect? That's going to be challenged by people who *do* know a lot about him, i.e. have actually read more than two books with him in it.

Now me, say for instance I had a long-standing grudge against Cyclops the character. I'm not in the X-forums proclaiming "Cyclops is a womanizing idiot, he has less than no respect for Jean Grey, his motivation seems shaky and anyone dumb enough to be seduced by Emma Frost deserves exactly what they're gonna get! Plus he has no character development: I've NEVER SEEN ANY, so that automatically means he doesn't HAVE any! I hope Jean returns from the dead for the fifth time and fries him to a crisp".... I just let Cyclops fans do their thing and figure that it takes all kinds to make a comics-convention or whatever.

I don't actually loathe Cyclops, just making a point.

No one here read that? Seriously?

I don't think most people here have. Their loss, because that is one out-there book for a Marvel release. I don't see them [Marvel] having anywhere near the cojones to release something that twisted and violent nowadays. Spidey being decapitated on-panel? No... that is totally un-politically correct. Hah.

 

[Cyclops]

Glad you feel the need to try and belittle me, Symbiotica. Truth is, this is a message board. If one person says "I recommend Carnage: Mindbomb" there's no need to say it over and over again, since it's all still there, ya know?

But whatever makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep doin' it. Feel free to try and make me feel like an idiot any time. It won't work, but I won't stop ya.

 

[Rez]

He's a phsyco, and he's well developed and written as one. The fact that some of you are saying that he bends the rules of the "phsyco template" or whatever is stupid; the very nature of the charecter type lends itself to unpredictability, violence, chaos, carnage, and contradiction.
He's one of the very few purely evil villians in Spiderman's rogue's gallery; he was evil prior to becoming a super villian, he was evil after it. He's a phsyco and a murderer and while that might be a one note cliched charecter, many of you seem too busy labeling him as such to notice that he's the only one of them in Spidey's rogues gallery.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Ironically enough, a few days before this thread was created I ordered th' two parts of his first arc I was missin'. Just submitted my reviews fer 'em on Spiderfan. Hafta dig out part 3 to do that...

Oh, and to throw in my two cents, I liked Carnage. There was a good concept there. Yeah, MC was drawn out, but that's Marvel marketing fer ya. Personally, I think it's dull if EVERY character has some kinda Shakespearean complex behind their motivations. Sometimes ya just need to break th' mold an' say "He kills because he can!" And that, my friends, is th' scariest reason you'll ever hear. It may not be th' most creative, but when you have someone who'll gut you just as easily as smile as they pass ya...

 

[wolvie2020]

I don't think they're saying the two are in the same league, only that the common criticism against Carnage could be applied to Joker, as well. What is Joker's motivation, how he has grown, or changed? We don't even know how he came to be, as The Killing Joke is only a possible origin. His gimmick might be more entertaining, but is there actually more depth?

And really, it's not like most villains have much character development anyway. Plus, for the most part, the stories and flashbacks that have fleshed out the classic villains we know of today came about many years after.

Thats' my point exactly. I think everyone here missed the entire point of my post. I never said that they're in the same league, I'm just pointing out the similarities, and no one here would attack the Joker, although their charachters share the same, (supposed,) faults

This is the Joker, someone who is considered one of the greatest villains of all time. But there was a time, (believe it or not,) that the joker, (and all Batman comics,) were considered a joke. Kids stuff, laughable. Now, it's very different. Carnage was created for Spider-Man to be like his Joker, and is going through a bad patch, like the Joker.

The Joker has had PLENTY more bad stories than Carnage, (although, plenty more good ones as well.)

We don't need some great backstory, we just need some decent stories freaturing Carnage, that tap into the fears of the public, and Spidey, using Carnage as a plot device. That's the kind of charachter he is

 

[Symbiotica]

Glad you feel the need to try and belittle me, Symbiotica. Truth is, this is a message board. If one person says "I recommend Carnage: Mindbomb" there's no need to say it over and over again, since it's all still there, ya know?

Anytime anyone starts a Carnage thread in the Spidey forums, you're right in there giving your "Meh..." opinion, and just generally trying to stir the pot. One would be justified in asking, "why?" But hey, whatever. As for my "belittling" you, if I ever actually start belittling you there will be no doubt in your mind whatsoever.

But whatever makes you feel better, go right ahead and keep doin' it. Feel free to try and make me feel like an idiot any time. It won't work, but I won't stop ya.

I think your behavior in here speaks for itself, actually.

This is one reason I like Carnage: he ticks so many people off. The right people, if you ask me.