Why Does Wolverine get a pass but the Punisher Doesn't?

[LouFerignoDemon]

A hero dammit! The government says so. How dare you question the authority.

Actually, none of them are really heros. In fact, most of the heros don't feel very heroic anymore. =/

When Ms. Marvel, the person who's aiming to be the pennultimate hero's only concern is, "Damn, I don't think I have enough power to kill this person," we might have a little bit of a problem.

I mean, if I say it, fine, it's my job to build death machines. But heros should be held to a slightly higher standard.

 

[Hound55]

I don't think it any less heroic to view things froma utilitarian perspective.

I can accept the "what right have I to take a life" P.O.V. but at the same time, when it comes down to it, I don't view it as a disqualifier for a hero to off a villain, or particularly "allow a villain to die", if its the only sure way to save innocents.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I honestly wish there were more people like you, for finance reasons. =/


However, I consider the heros to personally be something I myself could probably never be, which is, better at mitigating circumstances which would be deemed as respectable and valiant. Anybody can kill a problem, but it takes someone stronger to keep that impulse in check, and heros are apparently meant to represent that upper echelon of humanity. There was once a time, when heros strived to be beacons of peace and responsibility to the role models they were, and now simply just off enemies.

It's a large stretch to understand why the public may want their heros a little bit government controlled.

But, like I said, for financial reasons, I'd probably be more inclined to lean your way. Death!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think it any less heroic to view things froma utilitarian perspective.

I can accept the "what right have I to take a life" P.O.V. but at the same time, when it comes down to it, I don't view it as a disqualifier for a hero to off a villain, or particularly "allow a villain to die", if its the only sure way to save innocents.

If we're talking about cops and firefighters, I agree. But it's part of a superhero's job to find better ways, in my opinion. That's why they inspire others rather than just being nuts in costumes brawling in the streets with other nuts in costumes.

 

[Hound55]

I wasn't just referring to the real life heroes out there.

I think it adds room for some interesting character depth.

Some of the Ultimate series haven't been viewed in that positive a light, but I quite liked seeing the crisis of faith with Prox X after the events in the World Tour arc where no other opportunity presented itself...

I agree that these days there seems to be very little hesitation, but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate somewhat.

There are times when the pacifist option isn't the correct one... and that's coming from a guy who's often been referred to as a liberal whack-job... heh.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't mind if a hero literally has no other choice, has run out of time, and needs to make the call, and his hand is forced to it. But when they did that, they also went back on it to reflect the decision they made to take a life in the way they did, regretting life lost, as they're generally protectors of life.

Do I think pacifist options are the only method? I'd definitely sound hypocritical to say so. And I don't. But I'm definitely not talking about people like myself, I'm talking about self-appointed defenders of life and humanity. Them, I hold to a different level.

 

[Hound55]

I thought that the events that followed in World Tour were paticularly interesting BECAUSE it was the crisis of faith in the character who held to his pacifist beliefs rather than the "OMG I killed someone!!!" outpour which is quite frequent.

Thought it was a nice change of pace and Bendis stayed true to the character of Collosus at the time... frankly, he WOULD have viewed it as just something that had to be done and gone on with his life...

 

[Hound55]

Just to add... if every character was a Spidey it'd be pretty dull.

And if Spidey were real he'd give himself a stress ulcer by the time he left Midtown High... and be on meds to contain anxiety from his early/mid-twenties... heh

 

[The Question]

If we're talking about cops and firefighters, I agree. But it's part of a superhero's job to find better ways, in my opinion. That's why they inspire others rather than just being nuts in costumes brawling in the streets with other nuts in costumes.

Personally, I like there to be all types. While obviously I think super heroes should, ideally, strive to find better ways, it seems unrealistic and silly to me that there would be a vast majority of them that hold to the exact same moral code, and I think it enriches the story when the truth is otherwise. I also don't mind if a hero kills a bad guy in a heat of battle kill-or-be-killed scenario, because I certainly see a difference between murdering people or actively seeking out to kill the other person in a fight, and making a split second decision to save your life or the life of someone else. I'm not saying that killing people is a good thing, because I don't think there's ever a time when it's a good thing. But I find stories where heroes are vilified or berated for doing something something like that to be incredibly annoying.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm not advocating every hero be held to the same moral code. That would be dull. I'm talking about the best heroes and why Wolverine and the Punisher aren't among them. There's being forced into killing (like, say, Captain America with Brother Blood) and there's pure bloodlust (like the Punisher and Wolverine with... pretty much everything they do).

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

And then there's the "Wtf?" need for killing that a lot of Marvel heroes are doing right now.

 

[cthulhu]

Punisher isnt interested in being a hero just in dealing with the criminals. Wolverine gets a pass mainly due to the fact he hangs about with people who are heros so some of that rubbs off. Punisher tends not to. I dont think the punisher has a bloodlust either, I think he's more detached than that makes it sound. Wolverine on the other hand...

 

[The Question]

I'm not advocating every hero be held to the same moral code. That would be dull. I'm talking about the best heroes and why Wolverine and the Punisher aren't among them. There's being forced into killing (like, say, Captain America with Brother Blood) and there's pure bloodlust (like the Punisher and Wolverine with... pretty much everything they do).

I agree, then.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Punisher isnt interested in being a hero just in dealing with the criminals. Wolverine gets a pass mainly due to the fact he hangs about with people who are heros so some of that rubbs off. Punisher tends not to. I dont think the punisher has a bloodlust either, I think he's more detached than that makes it sound. Wolverine on the other hand...

To be fair, I don't think Wolverine looks to be a hero either.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Me, either. They're both amoral anti-heroes at best.

And then there's the "Wtf?" need for killing that a lot of Marvel heroes are doing right now.

Yeah, like swearing genocide on Skrulls because they posed as your dead wife (oh, Hawkeye... ).

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Me, either. They're both amoral anti-heroes at best.

Yeah, like swearing genocide on Skrulls because they posed as your dead wife (oh, Hawkeye... ).

Well, Hawkeye's being written by Bendis, so I expect him to not be in true form for the time being.

But I mean even OTHER heroes. Though, not all, but it seems to be a growing trend amongst heroes.

 

[cthulhu]

hey jihad is all the rage nowdays...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Hawkeye's being written by Bendis, so I expect him to not be in true form for the time being.

But I mean even OTHER heroes. Though, not all, but it seems to be a growing trend amongst heroes.

I agree. The norm seems to have shifted to most heroes' being willing to kill now, when up to a few years ago, it was that most heroes wouldn't kill. No one but us seems to mind it, though. I pointed out that it was surprising for Iron Fist to be killing HYDRA agents (who are people, not magically conjured drones or anything) early in his series and I got a variety of responses, from "HYDRA agents don't count" to "Iron Fist's just a normal dude with some martial arts skills, so it's unrealistic to expect him to fight tons of enemies without killing."

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Wow.

When I'm one of the people saying there should be a few less deaths here and there, we know we got ourselves a little bit of an issue on hand.

But yeah. Like I was saying with Carol, I was just like...floored, that her first thought upon fighting "Ms. Marvel" was that she wasn't going to be able to kill her easily.

Really? They said that about Rand?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Something like that. This was around the first arc of Immortal Iron Fist, which was like 2 years ago, so I don't remember it perfectly.

 

[kguillou]

Wow, murder really is becoming the norm huh? I guess we have the ultimate universe to thank for that cause let's face it, the 616 universe pretty much mimics the ultimate. Personally it doesnt really bother me, so long as heroes like spidey and daredevil never break their code, if carol wants to off somebody...eh so be it. lol

 

[Spider-Vader]

Eh, I don't like heroes killing unless they started off that way or if it's the only way to stop the enemy.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I was thinking a while back, with some sort of invasion that occurred on Earth that the Avengers went to prevent.

And in it, Iron Man actually goes out of his way to devise a plan to disable the suits they wear, without killing the people inside. Where nowadays, he'd just open up his armory, and let God sort it out. =/

 

[MaskedManJRK]

I think the voice just represented Frank's dark side. The bit inside him that makes other kids blow up bullfrogs and burn ants with magnifying glasses but usually goes away by the time they grow up. Frank's just stuck with him and re-emerged as a coping mechanism when he found himself in the midst of 'Nam.

In Ennis' proposal for Born it says that he does think it's Death, but he purposefully made it subtle so that fans could draw their own conclusions. It also says that there's a political thread in Ennis' interpetation of the character, basically saying that Frank Castle is what happens when America's Military/Industrial Complex bites them on the ass, and this became espicially apparant when we got to the last arc of his run, "Valley Forge, Valley Forge."

Molly doesn't give a pass to either of them

I hated that issue of Whedon's Runaways--not because Molly took him down, that definately would have happened, but because Frank actually went after a group of kids and insinuated that he had killed children before. It was like he wasn't even trying with that issue--Frank doesn't kill kids, he kills people who even thinks about killing kids.

 

[xisaacx]

heroes don't kill.