Why Does Wolverine get a pass but the Punisher Doesn't?

[Ace of Knaves]

Heroes do whatever needs to be done. Whether that is killing the enemy or throwing them in jail depends on the situation.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Hmmm... I'm going to lean towards not kill. Doing whatever needs done is more Wolverine's standpoint in life.

If they MUST kill, it should be few and far inbetween.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well yea no bonafide hero should set out to kill anyone. But they should know when murder is the only option.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Murder is sorta the opposite of heroic. It's murder. lol

 

[GyLocke]

It depends. John Bryne did this with his Superman run.
His Supes made the ultimate sacrifice - not offering his own life, but taking away from others.
He killed the three kryptonian criminals, who exterminated a parallel earth, and prepared to do the same to his. There was nothing he could do, no alternative. He had the kryptonite (it was when all the silly kryptonite variants were retconned out of existence, only the deadly variant remained), he had a moment to use it, he did, and then suffered from the guilt for months/years. In this context, the three murders were really heroic, since the hero sacrificed his own comfort, his own peace of mind, his own character just to protect humanity. He even exiled himself from earth for a year or so.

Of course this story got retconned too, but I've always loved it. And always thought Spidey should have a similar story, it would hit so much more with his everyman (and somewhat idealistic, holier than thou) character.

What does he do, when there's no comic book convenience "depowering sound rays" or "weak spots" are available, when he faces a powerful enemy. When thousands, millions of lives hang in the balance and he only has a second to stop the bad guy. (Not loved ones, just civilians.) What if he has no choice, but to kill him or watch him tear apart the world. What's the "responsible" thing to do? Would he do it? How would he deal with it, if he took either route?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

He does what any other smart hero should do.

Call for help.

However, if it's just seconds in the balance, it's not murder, chances are, they're already in a fight and he needs to make the call to either kill the guy, or let the innocents get murdered.

Murder isn't heroic, it never has been.

However, for the Superman piece, if he brought the Kryptonite, it means he had a little time to prepare, which means he could've easily played it smarter. And being a hero is all about playing smarter.

 

[Anubis]

He was using the Kryptonians own kryptonite, which didn't work on him. Why they kept it around is beyond me.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

******ism?

 

[GyLocke]

However, for the Superman piece, if he brought the Kryptonite, it means he had a little time to prepare, which means he could've easily played it smarter. And being a hero is all about playing smarter.

How "easily smarter"? Those stories were handled pretty realistically. No phantom zone projectors, no other firendly superhumans, who are a match for a kryptonian (think the viltrumites form Invincible). There was just him, and the kryptonite he found.

For me, a hero is who thinks of others before himself. That's what he did. He sacrificed being the hero he wanted to be in his own eyes, and that made him a hero in my eyes. So in this case, in a twisted way, I think murder is pretty heroic. A lot more heroic than Batman refusing to euthanize the Joker, just so he can sleep well.
(Okay, That Bryne Man of steel run was what got me into comics, as a kid so I'm pretty passionate about it )

 

[GyLocke]

He was using the Kryptonians own kryptonite, which didn't work on him. Why they kept it around is beyond me.

If I remember well, they crashed into the paralel Kent's home during the fight, there he found it

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

How "easily smarter"? Those stories were handled pretty realistically. No phantom zone projectors, no other firendly superhumans, who are a match for a kryptonian (think the viltrumites form Invincible). There was just him, and the kryptonite he found.

For me, a hero is who thinks of others before himself. That's what he did. He sacrificed being the hero he wanted to be in his own eyes, and that made him a hero in my eyes. So in this case, in a twisted way, I think murder is pretty heroic. A lot more heroic than Batman refusing to euthanize the Joker, just so he can sleep well.
(Okay, That Bryne Man of steel run was what got me into comics, as a kid so I'm pretty passionate about it )

Heroes are first and foremost bastions of protection, primarily of life. Every once in the while, if the situation calls it, they're asked to also take the heavy road, and put their enemy down in battle. That's fine, sometimes decisions like that are asked of people.

However, the fact that Superman actually killed three depowered Kryptonians makes the task a little different. He didn't have to, and they could've been locked up for the people they ACTUALLY threatened to decide what to do with. Instead, he simply took a threat they made, and killed them for it. It wasn't a case of "millions in the balance" it was the case of "maybe possibly someday somehow remote chance of a theoretical sort" he acted on. There was no pressure there, Superman just flat out decided to kill them.

It's really no different than gunning down someone just because they somehow may possibly be a threat someday long in the future without any proof to the contrary. (Hence why people demand proof before we send em off to the gas chambers, or tables, or chairs. Death unwarranted is just sloppy murder)

Given the situation Superman was in, he had several resources at the ready outside of his own little frame of existance to handle, and possibly contain another event like it. Instead, he just decides judge, jury, and executioner is a task easily handled by one man, and better suited than reasoned thinking. There's no realism to it, no precedent, just one man literally killing three others without good reason to do so.

 

[GyLocke]

However, the fact that Superman actually killed three depowered Kryptonians makes the task a little different. He didn't have to, and they could've been locked up for the people they ACTUALLY threatened to decide what to do with. Instead, he simply took a threat they made, and killed them for it. It wasn't a case of "millions in the balance" it was the case of "maybe possibly someday somehow remote chance of a theoretical sort" he acted on. There was no pressure there, Superman just flat out decided to kill them.

It's really no different than gunning down someone just because they somehow may possibly be a threat someday long in the future without any proof to the contrary. (Hence why people demand proof before we send em off to the gas chambers, or tables, or chairs. Death unwarranted is just sloppy murder)
.

But they were not depowered, that's what I've been saying for three posts. They were stronger than him, there were three of them, and they've just killed a planet. There were no magic deus ex machina ways to depower them or restrain them, noone to call for help. There was only kryptonite - kryptonite that kills them in seconds. That's it. That was the only choice - open the container or let them kill the earth.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Pretty sure he blasted them with gold kryptonite on the first go around.

 

[GyLocke]

Really?
That's not how I remember it. I'll have to look it up.

 

[Anubis]

He blasted them with it, then they started mouthing off about how they'd get their powers back and do to his Earth what they did to there's, and Supes was like, well, I guess I gotta off them....just to be sure.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yeah, no need for rational thought there. The guys said they'd be back, much like many villans before them had. But they were special in the fact they had to die. =/

 

[Anubis]

Last son of Krypton and all that. Can't have Super Hitler and Mongo messing that up.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well, if they survived, they'd be edging in on his "Last Son of Krypton" gig he had going. Can't have that. Murder is heroic, when it preserves your marketing value.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Murder is sorta the opposite of heroic. It's murder. lol

Well not murder! You know what I mean.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, there's Murder, and then their killing a motha f**ka. Different kinda animal.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Well, if they survived, they'd be edging in on his "Last Son of Krypton" gig he had going. Can't have that. Murder is heroic, when it preserves your marketing value.

Then Supes must be getting ready for genocide with this New Krypton stuff

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Then Supes must be getting ready for genocide with this New Krypton stuff

Remember that Kryptonian battleship?

Stockpiled with kyrponite warheads.

Heroic genocide. Mainly as they're being LED by Zod. lol

 

[Hound55]

He blasted them with it, then they started mouthing off about how they'd get their powers back and do to his Earth what they did to there's, and Supes was like, well, I guess I gotta off them....just to be sure.

SuperSamJax.

"Yes they deserved to die! I hope they burn in hell!"

 

[kguillou]

This John Byrne Superman story sounds interesting, gotta look it up. Just curious though, how was it retconned?

 

[UnionJack]

He'd scout and plan and make 150% sure that no innocents are in the area. Because he's always just a person who kills other people, not a psychopathic beast half the time.

HERE HERE

Love them both .. but people that don't read much Punisher just see him as a mindless killer.

Wolvie used to be that until he got really child friendly about 10years about, which now bores me to tears.