Why the Punisher ever fail?

[dft-313]

TDK is an example of people praising a film for what it wants to be rather than what it is. It has great ambition and poor execution. Too many characters, complete jumps of logic (what happens to the party when Batman leaves them alone with The Joker?), really really bad scripting and a ridiculous final third that rushes all the build up so spectactularly badly that it's almost pointless.

Why did there need to be a final "action" sequence? Wouldn't Harvey choosing not to kill Gordon's family have provided a better reinforcement of the key message that not everybody wants chaos than the ridiculous boat sequences? Couldn't that time have been spent on Harvey's descent into madness?

Most of the problems could have been sorted out with a substantial re-edit to a solid 1hr and 40 minutes. It didn't help that Bale's Batman voice is so woeful either. But, despite my problems with it, I do like it and think it's a good film. Just not "THE BEST COMIC MOVIE EVER".

War Zone just doesn't work for me as a film and definitely not as an adaptation of one of my favourite characters. it almost ranks beside Milius' version of Conan for a complete misunderstanding of the core concepts.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Really, really bad scripting? You ain't got a scooby about films have you? Everyone is entitled to a opinion and no opinions can be wrong. But opinions can be illogical, misinformed and misguided. Yours falls into this category.

 

[mojo-x]

I have not seen the War Zone due to the fact it was taking out of the theaters like the next week. I think the Dec 5th was a bad time to release a movie like the War Zone. I had plans to see this movie the Thursday after it was release and it was already gone. Hopefully it will fine its audience when the DVD and Blue Ray are released.

 

[webhead731]

Really, really bad scripting? You ain't got a scooby about films have you? Everyone is entitled to a opinion and no opinions can be wrong. But opinions can be illogical, misinformed and misguided. Yours falls into this category.

Well in all fairness, I think he was meaning bad scripting as in his problem with the final act and lots of characters and Two Face's out come. And really, I agree about the Two Face being dragged down is ruining the message. But, I'd rather have that than him ***** out at the end.

As for Batman's voice, I could hardly take him seriously with it. I like Bale as Wayne, but he's just not THAT good of a Batman to me. I don't like the way he moves around in the suit during fights, I don't like the way his mouth moves when he talks, etc. Looks goofy.
But he's not a BAD Batman. He works.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hmmm yea I do think Bale could tone it down a bit. His voice was much better in BB. One of the big problems I have with TDK is the actual fight sequences, they ain't nothing spectacular. The fight in the club is pretty good, but I wanna see a villain who can take Batman on one on one.

 

[webhead731]

Yes.^
But fights with the Joker...no, of course not lol. Not a fighter really. Batman and Joker fighting like Blade and vampires rofl.

But the fighting was nothing spectacular. It was a really good story, good acting, and that was about it for me. The action scenes were by no means bad. I think the only thing Nolan does right action wise is car chases etc. Because the car chase in Batman Begins was my favorite scene. The car chase part in The Dark Knight was the best action scene.

Batman just looks too stiff while fighting. It doesn't feel real to me. But that's just my opinion.

Thing that bugs me the most is Scarecrow. I love him but the movie version is way too under used. Pisses me off.

 

[Johann Schmidtt]

There's a whole bunch of reasons for why the film failed. I would think first and foremost,bad advertising. Secondly..I would perhaps say actors..

 

[dft-313]

Really, really bad scripting? You ain't got a scooby about films have you? Everyone is entitled to a opinion and no opinions can be wrong. But opinions can be illogical, misinformed and misguided. Yours falls into this category.

You are only entitled to an opinion if you have some knowledge of the subject. here's the news, genius - I'm a professional writer - scripts, short stories, journalism and comics. TDK is complete gubbins as a script, it's comped from so many different drafts that it fails to follow its own logic.

You already sound like the sort of raving fanboy that completely disregards the film's very apparent flaws in favour of what it wants to be.

And specifically, i was referring to the final third where all that hard work in the first 90 minutes begins to come apart. And then completely unravels.

I'm happy to list the points, if that makes you feel any better about having your ******ed, insulting point slaughtered on the internet

 

[The Guard]

I enjoyed TDK. I think I gave it a 9 of 10.

Christian Bale's voice has some nice elements to it, but it inconsistent in BATMAN BEGINS. Rather than tone it down, he was instead so inconsistent in THE DARK KNIGHT that even computer modulation couldn't solve voice issues. And whereas in BEGINS he seemed to embrace the role, he, at times just seemed uncomfortable in the role in THE DARK KNIGHT.

THE DARK KNIGHT has some nice moments here and there, but it's very piecemeal, and definitely isn't the best scripted movie. The performances elevated some very average material. I don't think it's so much "cobbled together from other drafts", as it just doesn't feature the most original screenwriting style overall. Clearly Jonah Nolan and Chris Nolan know screenwriting basics and structural basics, and they're comfortable sticking to that. A bit too comfortable sometimes, because it makes their story predictable.

There are several bright spots in the story, but even these aren't exactly brilliant, or even subtle. The script relies on all the major screenwriting cliches for it's structure, and that often makes it seem forced.

I agree with dft, I think a lot of opportunities were wasted in TDK.

I also think the fighting was incredibly inconsistent. In BEGINS, Batman's wading through ninjas, then bodyguards in TDK, and then later on in TDK he can't even handle The Joker's thugs, who don't appear to have any special skills, at first?

 

[[A]]

Why the Punisher ever fail?

I like the Punisher too. They just have to gather the right team (producers, writers, actors)

 

[Brendan]

You are only entitled to an opinion if you have some knowledge of the subject. here's the news, genius - I'm a professional writer - scripts, short stories, journalism and comics.

How many screenplays have you sold lately?

 

[dft-313]

How many screenplays have you sold lately?

I've done some comics work most recently, and a few articles on politics and other topics.

I've never sold a script on spec, I've usually been involved in redrafts and sorting out previous scriptwriter's basic mistakes when writing for TV. What's the point of your question?

 

[S. Grundy]

So, you're a script doctor then?

 

[webhead731]

I've done some comics work most recently, and a few articles on politics and other topics.

I've never sold a script on spec, I've usually been involved in redrafts and sorting out previous scriptwriter's basic mistakes when writing for TV. What's the point of your question?

He's either curious on what you've done or he's trying to be an ass and say "well what good things have YOU done?" because you insulted Dark Knight.

Anyway, anything we'd know of? Sounds like a cool job.

 

[dft-313]

UK tv work only - I've no access to anyone in the US market to sell stuff or get work.

I did some work on some things on the various digital channels, bit of sitcoms and a few smaller dramas, mostly where the scripts needed quick changes or dialogue needed to be amended following star feedback. Not exciting, but you learn very fast about potential flaws in plotting and story-telling. I've got a good ear for dialogue and can tell when people are just laying out exposition rather than conversing.

I've written some stuff for some music magazines on commission (an Elvis Costello retrospective, in advance of the Spectacle series, being the most notable). the comics work has been entirely for 2000AD and, really, i'd like to do more and with myself as the primary artist, but my main job keeps me too busy writing corporate communications material.

 

[Brendan]

he's trying to be an ass.

That I am. Although I think bragging about being a screenwriter in order to back up a point you have against another film that has made it's money and received it's praise doesn't really help the argument if you don't have anything to your credit. I don't know. I've known someone too who has worked in screenwriting and is actually finally getting a professional movie made soon, and TDK was his favorite film of the year. Although I'm not praising TDK as a perfect, flawless film. I don't believe there is such a thing as the flawless film. My favorite movie of the year was Let The Right One In.

I think when you're captivated by a really good movie, its easy to ignore what is wrong with it. You don't always notice the flaws until after its all over and you and your friends and social acquaintances talk about it.

 

[jebhdb]

What ever happened to just going to a movie and enjoying it? Like Brendan said if we really wanted to we could find something wrong with every movie ever made. Sometimes it seems that people go to the movies just to see how many flaws they can find in whatever they are watching.

 

[dft-313]

That I am. Although I think bragging about being a screenwriter in order to back up a point you have against another film that has made it's money and received it's praise doesn't really help the argument if you don't have anything to your credit. I don't know. I've known someone too who has worked in screenwriting and is actually finally getting a professional movie made soon, and TDK was his favorite film of the year. Although I'm not praising TDK as a perfect, flawless film. I don't believe there is such a thing as the flawless film. My favorite movie of the year was Let The Right One In.

I think when you're captivated by a really good movie, its easy to ignore what is wrong with it. You don't always notice the flaws until after its all over and you and your friends and social acquaintances talk about it.

I wasn't bragging at all, in fact that's why I'm not talking about what i've worked on. Someone made the claim:

But opinions can be illogical, misinformed and misguided.

And applied it to mine. All I'm pointing out is that i write for a living, in a variety of media. You may not agree with what i say, but I'm certainly not misinformed or misguided - all that proves is that some of the little girls on these forums are incapable of having an argument.

 

[Brendan]

And why the need for an argument on a message board? It doesn't lead to anywhere. No one will be convinced of anything and in the end its all one big waste of time. And that's the truth of it. I mean, there is an argument over TDK on a Punisher message board? Whoop de doo.

 

[dft-313]

And why the need for an argument on a message board? It doesn't lead to anywhere. No one will be convinced of anything and in the end its all one big waste of time. And that's the truth of it. I mean, there is an argument over TDK on a Punisher message board? Whoop de doo.

there was none from my side, i merely made a point. he insulted me, I corrected him. beyond that, I don't care.

 

[Devil]

all that proves is that some of the little girls on these forums are incapable of having an argument.

That's right, little girl

 

[Ace of Knaves]

You are only entitled to an opinion if you have some knowledge of the subject. here's the news, genius - I'm a professional writer - scripts, short stories, journalism and comics. TDK is complete gubbins as a script, it's comped from so many different drafts that it fails to follow its own logic.

You already sound like the sort of raving fanboy that completely disregards the film's very apparent flaws in favour of what it wants to be.

And specifically, i was referring to the final third where all that hard work in the first 90 minutes begins to come apart. And then completely unravels.

I'm happy to list the points, if that makes you feel any better about having your ******ed, insulting point slaughtered on the internet

Fanboy? Not atall. And are you calling me ******ed?

You said the script was really really bad. I fail to see how it is. Yea, list your points, I would like to see them.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

And applied it to mine. All I'm pointing out is that i write for a living, in a variety of media. You may not agree with what i say, but I'm certainly not misinformed or misguided - all that proves is that some of the little girls on these forums are incapable of having an argument.

So you are calling me a little girl as well? HAHA you are a Joker, and not in the good kind. You said it was bad writing, so basically, you are saying you are a better writer than Jonah and Chris Nolan? Hmmm...highly improbable. I think pretty much every single movie ever created has flaws. But when you come here, slating a film that is universally praised, you better be prepared to back up your statement. So far, I don't think you have. Yea you are a script doctor or whatever, what does that have to do with anything? It seems you are using your "higher education" to look down on people and to try and give you some validation. I hate people like that to be honest. I know a good film when I see it, me being a fan of Batman is irrelevant. TDK was a great, great film. Sure it had it's flaws, but what film doesn't? And why did you even bring TDK up in a Punisher thread? Trying to garner attention with a controversial statement much?

there was none from my side, i merely made a point. he insulted me, I corrected him. beyond that, I don't care.

I didn't insult you. You came in, out of the blue and said TDK is a badly written film. When it is CLEARLY not. Just because you write or touch up some scripts on TV shows doesn't make you automatically right. If you was always right and you really was a great writer, more so than the Nolans you would be doing more than what you do.

So get off your high horse and explain your reasons better than just saying "Well I am a proffesional script writer, that makes me always right!"

And finally, what do you reckon is the best comic book movie ever? HHmmmm I reckon you'll say Superman: The Movie.

 

[dft-313]

Ok, generally i'd just ignore you at this point, but I laid out pretty comprehensively my reasons why TDK is badly written in previous posts. I'll put them in bullets:

- the movie frequently goes off at tangents simply to fit in action sequences (HK and the finale)
- Bruce Wayne's conflict about giving up being Batman is completely irrational - he's about to give himself up, he seems completely casual about it and this is meant to be the biggest thing in his life - a psychological need
- Even that doesn't make sense because surely he doesn't believe that would be the end of The Joker's rampage?
- There are too many characters that are there simply to move the plot along and perform no other function (Morgan Freeman, the weasly auditor amongst many)
- The majority of the twists are borne along through cliches and coincidences rather than character driven
- the dialogue absolutely clunks, particularly Gary Oldman's closing speech
- the final third of the film is just sloppy attempts to tie up the plotlines. A pointless action scene that added nothing, other than to show how bruce Wayne will only go so far to catch The Joker and that Morgan Freeman's "just" morally flexible enough to help him
- the final confrontation between Batman and The Joker is such a letdown.
- Two Face is so completely underwritten and his transformation, being so key to the film's theme, is just rushed through for the stupid "Gotham needs it's hero"

That's a quick synopsis of the poor writing and story development. despite that, as I've said - I ENJOYED IT. I just wish people would stop making out like it's some amazing piece of cinema when it's so deeply flawed.

Also, it was written by Chris and Jonathan Nolan, not Jonah Nolan or any variant thereof.

Now I'll answer your points:

said it was bad writing, so basically, you are saying you are a better writer than Jonah and Chris Nolan? Hmmm...highly improbable.

I said nothing of the sort. I said TDK was an example of bad writing in points. Memento is an example of great writing. Both involved Jonathan Nolan, who wrote some short stories I really loved.

But when you come here, slating a film that is universally praised, you better be prepared to back up your statement.

I did, I have. And this film is not "universally praised. take a quick look at metacritic and look at the bottom. There were more than a few critics who either thought it was a bit ropey or felt it was good with serious flaws (my position).

It seems you are using your "higher education" to look down on people and to try and give you some validation

I wasn't looking down on anyone, you claimed I was misinformed and misguided - that's pretty dismissive considering you haven't offered me any counter argument for TDK's flawless greatness. I made the statement about my professiopn to show that, while you may not agree with me, i am certainly entitled to my informed opinion.

I know a good film when I see it, me being a fan of Batman is irrelevant. TDK was a great, great film.

Entirely subjective. i disagree. We are both entitled to our opinion - I never dismissed yours.

I didn't insult you. You came in, out of the blue and said TDK is a badly written film. When it is CLEARLY not.

Sorry, do i have to announce my statement of intent? Anyway, I only mentioned TDK in reply to Jebhb's post (#20):

dft, I know you didn't care for War Zone, which even though I liked I have to admit had many problems. But you also felt The Dark Knight was overrated. I'm just curious what are some of your favorite films. What would you list as some good movies.

And then listed some films I like. I liked TDK, but people are over the score when it appears in the top ten movies of all time. Overrated much? Even Chris Nolan took a backward step from that one.

If you was always right and you really was a great writer, more so than the Nolans you would be doing more than what you do.

only if Hollywood's the goal and only if you've got access to the markets. More than anything else, I'm a comics guy - that's what i like making. But if the offer was there, I'd take it.

So get off your high horse and explain your reasons better than just saying "Well I am a proffesional script writer, that makes me always right!"

i never said any such thing. you tried to dismiss my opinion because you don't agree with it. I explained why I have enough knowledge to base an opinion on some professional expertise. I never said I was Robert Towne or anything.

And finally, what do you reckon is the best comic book movie ever? HHmmmm I reckon you'll say Superman: The Movie.

Are you going to seriously tell me it's not in the top 5?

Anyway, i'd pick X2 - an almost perfect mix of story, character, humour and action. And it's got Anna Paquin in it.

 

[Brendan]

For me, Memento is still Nolan's best film.