Why Does Wolverine get a pass but the Punisher Doesn't?

[TheCorpulent1]

Or just keep killing him and hope the angel of death takes care of him for them.

 

[BoredGuy]

Why does everyone assume that Wolverine was the only one seeing an illusion...??
That's just silly....

 

[Shockdingo]

Yea I was under the impression that everyone had varying illusions that had them vulnerable for Wolverine's assault.

On to the main point, I did always get somewhat bothered by the double standard held to the Punisher; argue all you want heroes, but how many times do people get thrashed or die when one of the psycho villains escapes? At least he puts down people permanently. It's just weird to me, because if you look at things, other heroes are starting to kill now, but ol' Frank is looked at with disgust. Ah well, it's no biggie in the end I guess.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You're right, the word "hero" is a pretty pale shadow of what it used to be. There are Punisher-Lites and Wolverine-Lites running around all over at this point. Although, wasn't the Punisher welcomed into the Secret Avengers and accepted in Civil War?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Logan has saved the world time and time again. The Puisher just murders hoodlums.

There is your pass.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wolverine usually saves the world by murdering hoodlums in the right places, though. If the Punisher were there, he'd probably murder the same hoodlums and save the world.

 

[kguillou]

But the thing is wolverine has killed So.Many.People. I remember at the very end of Enemy of the State when wolverine went around the world killing bad guys, Nick Fury said that he had killed close to 2,000 people single handed. 2,000??!! DAMN! I mean think about that for a second. Imagine one guy individually clawing through 2,000 people, eventhough they were all bad guys apparently. Thats still incredibly staggering. And that was just Enemy of the State! And yet the avengers and X-men welcome him open-hearted. But when the Punisher shot 2 d-list bad guys during civil war, Cap was all like "BAD FRANK! BAD! You're out of the club now!" lol

 

[hippie_hunter]

One point that should be made is that the heroes do see Wolverine as nothing but a killing machine. The X-Men (Cyclops in particular) sees him as someone to do the X-Men's dirty work. Iron Man put him on the Avengers so he can kill people on occasion. Wolverine even pretty much admitted that the only hero that really sees him as a hero is Spider-Man.

Not only that but Wolverine does feel some remorse for the person that he has become while Frank....not so much. Sure he'd love to have Maria and his children back, but he doesn't see that happening and just goes off his merry way.

Also, Captain America really didn't have respect for Wolverine either.

 

[Dread]

Yet Captain America was perfectly willing to work with Punisher in Civil War, until he made the mistake of mowing down criminals in his presence. Because I guess simply knowing that Castle had a few hundred confirmed fatalities and had even gone to jail and escaped a few times for them wasn't the same as actually witnessing it. But I guess that falls under "Millar's a hack" too.

Has the Punisher ever killed someone who was "innocent"? I know Wolverine has done some very nasty things before Weapon X, even before ORIGINS started heaping more piles of *****e-bag stuff into his folder. Frankly it always struck me as weird that you never see anyone trying to go after Wolverine who has a legitimate grievance with him, or at least it is rare. Wolverine killed quite a few heroes in ENEMY OF THE STATE. The Slingers could all reunite to hunt Logan down and force him to at least stand trial for decapitating their buddy Hornet, and what would the New Avengers do? It's too good a story for anyone to actually do, though. And to be fair, SHIELD probably covered up the fact that it was Wolverine (in LONERS, Gallo seemed to imply that he didn't know who had killed Hornet, even if the art showed the reader).

Wolverine, despite all his barking about being a loner, has often teamed up with virtually every superhero on the planet for the greater good if it comes to it. There may be that unpleasant acceptance that when Wolverine is stable or on a leash, he is handy. Of course, you could say the same of Dr. Octopus. The morals are rather murky. They've certainly changed over the 21st century. In the past, the X-Men usually didn't encourage Wolverine to kill people, although they not as "anti-kill" as the Avengers used to be. Logan to be fair usually did his killin' during solo adventures, so the X-Men could claim plausible deniability. "I have no idea what Wolverine does at bars in Madipoor at 3 a.m., sir. I was busy crying over Maddie Pryor." Other superheroes used to frown at Wolverine about the same as they frowned at Punisher. Then in the post 2000 era, things changed. The comics code was zapped. Comics started trying to compete more with TV shows, movies, and video games. It quickly became okay to slaughter minions. Superheroes who used to simply TKO the nameless grunts of their enemies would sometimes either kill them outright (Iron Fist, Luke Cage) or not say a word when their allies did (Spidey in New Avengers is the easiest example). Hell, I remember one MTU issue where Punisher saves Spider-Man, Moon Knight and a few other heroes from Ringmaster by shooting his finger off and Spidey literally CHEERS him. For what? Not capping the villain in the head? And that was Robert Kirkman.

I think what has happened, besides the assumption that kids under 13 no longer read comics and thus the default "rating" is PG-13 at least on violence, was that some staples of heroics got altered with the new EIC reign and whatnot. People misunderstand some heroes being willing to kill in wartime situations like Cap or the Invaders as being the default, when it doesn't have to be. It's not an equal situation. A clan of HYDRA grunts is not the same as D-Day. But even on TV, rules regarding violence have changed for cartoons even.

Punisher is usually less willing to work with superheroes and he usually resents them. He has, though, albeit usually with Daredevil or Spider-Man. I wouldn't call them "the worst that humanity has to offer" before villains, though. Wanting to kill bad guys sometimes isn't a bad thing; everyone loves DEXTER, after all. In one of the CIVIL WAR specials, written from IRON MAN's POV, he noted his dislike at Punisher because the idea was that killing criminals didn't ever give them the chance to change, and he cited many heroes who started out as criminals (albeit they never killed anyone or really did much beyond steal things really). Of course this is the guy who recommended Wolverine for his team for exactly that reason, so hypocrisy all around.

It is a tricky wicket.

 

[kguillou]

Also, look at it this way: Wolverine was apparently an awful person before he joined the X-men. Prof. X took him in, gave him a family and now wolverine is a very likeable character. He considers the x-men his family and would kill for anyone of them, even cyclops. Wolverine changed for the better because X gave him a chance.

Now look at the Punisher. The guy's a complete loner, and the heroes rarely extend their arms to him. Frank Castle literally feels alone and no one cares about him, thats why he acts in such disgusting ways. I feel like if the heroes were to at least welcome Frank like they do wolverine, Frank wouldnt be so one dimensional like he is these days. He might actually grow personality and *gasp* sympathy for the people he's attempting to kill.

I'm one of the very few who dislikes Garth Ennis' Punisher because Ennis portrays him as a disgusting one dimensional human being. The guy doesnt even flinch before he obliterates tons of people. Wolverine at least feels remorse and doesnt glorify what he does. Ennis' Punisher made me hate him despite the fact that he was killing bad guys. Heck there was one arc where Frank blows off the head of his longtime partner Microchip. I was like "WTF, DOES THIS GUY NOT FEEL ANYTHING??".

I much more preferred Thomas Jane's version of the Punisher in the 2004 film, because you could sympathize with the guy and you could feel his pain and you actually rooted for him when he was killing people. Ennis' Punisher is just a bully plain and simple.

Anyway my point is, if people were more willing to help the punisher, perhaps the character would have more layers to his personality and he would at least think before he pulls the trigger like Logan does.

 

[Dread]

You might be the only person besides me who would admit to liking the 2004 PUNISHER film. I saw it as a modern Western, and appreciated it on that level. I mean it even had two quick-draw scenes, including the climax, like a Western. But, yeah, I though Jane humanized him a bit. Sadly, few really see Castle as a human, more like a killing machine; Brock Samson without the humor.

 

[Manic]

I liked the 2004 Punisher movie. It's the more recent one that needs to burn in hell.

 

[Lucien]

Wow. Am I the only person to think this is a little bit too graphic for the average Marvel comic? That's some pretty ****ed up imagery.

What's this from?

 

[Perfect Cell]

^^ There's... a lot going on in that image.

 

[bryanss3]

thats from Mark Millar's Old Man Logan story.

I'd say the difference between Wolverine killing people and the Punisher killing people is Wolverine knows its wrong, the Punisher(in his perspective) knows its right.

 

[Dread]

I liked the 2004 Punisher movie. It's the more recent one that needs to burn in hell.

Indeed. I knew it was a bad sign when Thomas Jane was trying to get a sequel into production for years, and then when the script was more or less finalized, he walked. More like RAN.

But, yeah, PUNISHER: WAR ZONE is unintentionally hilarious. You keep imagining it not getting any dumber, and it does.

Wow. Am I the only person to think this is a little bit too graphic for the average Marvel comic? That's some pretty ****ed up imagery.

What's this from?

OLD MAN LOGAN?

Yeah, like I said above, Marvel and DC have given up on anyone under 18 reading mainstream comics and treat all comics as PG-13 at least in terms of violence.

thats from Mark Millar's Old Man Logan story.

I'd say the difference between Wolverine killing people and the Punisher killing people is Wolverine knows its wrong, the Punisher(in his perspective) knows its right.

For a guy who knows it is wrong, Wolverine still does a damn lot of it. Many of his solo or one shot stories sometimes focus on him killing some terrible creep like the Punisher would, only with claws.

 

[Lucien]

thats from Mark Millar's Old Man Logan story.

For someone whose never read it, why the hell would Wolverine feel the need to decapitate Beast and impale him on a spike!? Let alone corpsify the rest of the room!

(I don't mean to de-rail the topic here, sorry, That pic is just something i'd never expect to see from the Marvel comics i'm used to reading)

 

[bryanss3]

For a guy who knows it is wrong, Wolverine still does a damn lot of it. Many of his solo or one shot stories sometimes focus on him killing some terrible creep like the Punisher would, only with claws.

But Wolverine has the thought somewhere in the back of his head that what he's doing is wrong no matter how small that thought is it's there. Frank Castle doesn't even get that thought.

 

[Lucien]

Double post, sorry.

 

[Dread]

For someone whose never read it, why the hell would Wolverine feel the need to decapitate Beast and impale him on a spike!? Let alone corpsify the rest of the room!

(I don't mean to de-rail the topic here, sorry, That pic is just something i'd never expect to see from the Marvel comics i'm used to reading)

I think in OLD MAN LOGAN, Wolverine was fooled by Mysterio (of all people) and tricked into slaughtering the X-Men. He thought they were enemies.

I say, "of all people" because you know in a story that is actually canon, and not some alternate reality story, Mysterio would never be allowed a win over Wolverine like that. It's the sort of popularity thing that takes me out of a story. Like in SPIDER-MAN/X-MEN #3 when Gage has Iceman beat Carnage in a story dated in 90's continuity. There is no way in heaven or hell during the Ben Reilly era that Marvel would have allowed ICEMAN a win over CARNAGE. Even if it does make sense. Most comic battles are akin to wrestling, where popularity trumps logic.

Also, for those who think only Wolverine could have fan aura and kill everyone in the MU, I guess PUNISHER KILLS THE MARVEL UNIVERSE has been forgotten.

But Wolverine has the thought somewhere in the back of his head that what he's doing is wrong no matter how small that thought is it's there. Frank Castle doesn't even get that thought.

Is it better to have that in the back of your head but never listen to it, or to just not have it? Would your rather be shot by a remorseless killer, or stabbed to death by someone who goes, "Darn, musta slipped again" as you die? I'd take the former, personally. Someone who doesn't know better doesn't know better. Someone who does but does it anyway is a chump.

I feel like paraphrasing Spleen from MYSTERY MEN. "It's the same difference! You're still dead!"

 

[Lucien]

I think in OLD MAN LOGAN, Wolverine was fooled by Mysterio (of all people) and tricked into slaughtering the X-Men. He thought they were enemies.

Cheers I have no desire to read this....

 

[Ipodman]

I dont read alot of Punisher comics, but at least punisher kills ppl because he wants to punish crime...
I dont read alot of Wolverine comics either, but Logan just goes around with his 'beserker rage' excuse...
Personally, i feel that Punisher is more of a hero. People just dont find him interesting enough. Thats why the movies are only above average but not great.

 

[Manic]

Wolverine pretty much gets ordered by Cyclops to kill people, these days.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I dont read alot of Punisher comics, but at least punisher kills ppl because he wants to punish crime...
I dont read alot of Wolverine comics either, but Logan just goes around with his 'beserker rage' excuse...
Personally, i feel that Punisher is more of a hero. People just dont find him interesting enough. Thats why the movies are only above average but not great.

I find Wolverine to be more of a hero because he thinks it's wrong, but it's too late for him to change. The Punisher is just too damn indiscriminate when he kills.

 

[Ipodman]

I think only the recent Punisher stuff is getting too violent... in his early comicbook days... he wasnt that bad...