Why Does Wolverine get a pass but the Punisher Doesn't?

[Lucien]

Wolverine at least has righteous values and can be portrayed as a decently good-hearted guy. He was in Whedon's Astonishing X-Men anyway. I've read little of the Punisher, but from what I have he's seemed very black and white. You're either good or you're not, and if you're not you die. But again, I haven't read much of him so I might not be getting the whole picture.

 

[jmc247]

Sure, he manages to kill all the X-Men at the same time.

More then half of those characters there should own his ass alone in a fight. Yah, I could buy he could suprise many of them, but a number of others I couldn't buy.

I thought Fantastic Force had a more realistic battle between Polaris and Wolverine.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I think in OLD MAN LOGAN, Wolverine was fooled by Mysterio (of all people) and tricked into slaughtering the X-Men. He thought they were enemies.

God, that's dumb.

 

[kguillou]

You'd think Wolvie's heightened senses would've indicated that things arent what they seem. I mean isnt that how Spiderman beats mysterio every time?

 

[bryanss3]

there is a page of him stabbing Bullseye but it's really poor Jubilee in OML. Don't think to hard about the OML story's ridiculousness. Sure it's stupid yet entertaining like the modern day action movies, and over hyped some even calling it "the best Wolverine story ever" Millar himself said "He wants it to be Wolverine's TDKR", look at it like its an alternative universe cause it's a story that'll never ever happen in 616.

 

[Ipodman]

In that Fantastic Four scan, how does Wolverine walk and fight without his brain or muscles anyway?

 

[Kitsune]

In that Fantastic Four scan, how does Wolverine walk and fight without his brain or muscles anyway?

He doesn't. Lorna was using her power to control his skeleton.

 

[Hound55]

Wolverine is part of a peace keeping force (or forceS) as an ex-weapon who has been honed in killing to the extent that often his response to a threat is to kill it. And he's unapologetic about it because its what's kept him alive (along with the healing factor) and its what's worked until now.

The Punisher is a sociopathic fascist who has declared his own war on crime and is just picking off as many of the criminal high-ups that he can track down in a way to both make them pay and to redeem himself for his family which he was unable to save.

Punisher has his own agendas and its why the others don't feel comfortable around him... because if they leave him alone with one of these types he's got that conflict of interests and its quite possible that he'll gun these people down even defenceless and in cold blood... or "give them a weapon" and then gun them down with little chance of survival.

Same thing applies, but to a lesser extent, with Moon Knight at this point. Its why both sides of Civil War looked at them with so much scrutiny...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

One point that should be made is that the heroes do see Wolverine as nothing but a killing machine. The X-Men (Cyclops in particular) sees him as someone to do the X-Men's dirty work. Iron Man put him on the Avengers so he can kill people on occasion. Wolverine even pretty much admitted that the only hero that really sees him as a hero is Spider-Man.

Not only that but Wolverine does feel some remorse for the person that he has become while Frank....not so much. Sure he'd love to have Maria and his children back, but he doesn't see that happening and just goes off his merry way.

Also, Captain America really didn't have respect for Wolverine either.

Bull. S***. The last time I saw Wolverine feel remorse for anything was when he murdered a truckload of a**holes and then drowned his sorrows over it with Nightcrawler during Rucka's run. Wolverine may have started out battling between his animalistic killing side and his humanity, but he's continued murdering people with no remorse for so long that he's given up and just merged the two: he kills like an animal with a human personality. The only difference is that he'll allow leaders like Cyclops and Iron Man to point him at what they want him to kill and hold back when they tell him not to. The Punisher is basically just a Wolverine who doesn't follow orders. And uses guns.

 

[SuperFerret]

And that's why he's sucked consistently.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, the only Wolverine I can read at this point is the one in Wolverine: First Class, and that's only because he's funny. He's still an amoral a**hole.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Bull. S***. The last time I saw Wolverine feel remorse for anything was when he murdered a truckload of a**holes and then drowned his sorrows over it with Nightcrawler during Rucka's run. Wolverine may have started out battling between his animalistic killing side and his humanity, but he's continued murdering people with no remorse for so long that he's given up and just merged the two: he kills like an animal with a human personality. The only difference is that he'll allow leaders like Cyclops and Iron Man to point him at what they want him to kill and hold back when they tell him not to. The Punisher is basically just a Wolverine who doesn't follow orders. And uses guns.

The last issue of Wolverine before it became Wolverine has him expressing remorse towards Spider-Man on who he is and that his son is becoming the same way.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but he's been saying that for 30 years now. That's the problem with characters who are struggling against their nature; at some point, it just becomes lip-service. Wolverine's never gonna stop killing people and he's never going to care about killing people to the extent that it'll change him in any significant way. So he's no better than the Punisher in the long run. He's just more of a hypocrite.

 

[Ipodman]

He doesn't. Lorna was using her power to control his skeleton.

OH.. that makes it all the more creepy...

Wasnt there a time where Magneto extracted all the metal from Wolverine's skeleton? NVM.. i dont wanna know!

 

[roach]

I think the difference between Wolverine and The Punisher is that Wolverine doesnt set out to kill villains. Logan doesnt suit up and go..."Im gonna f'ing kill Toad when I see him."
While when you see Castle putting his skull shirt on you know someone is going to be typing an obituary tomorrow

 

[TheCorpulent1]

What else would Wolverine do when he goes after villains? He tries to kill everyone he chases after, especially if he's on his own. The two high-profile villains he went after recently--Nitro and Mystique--he went after with the sole intention of murdering them for their crimes. I seem to recall a certain black-costumed vigilante who does exactly the same...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea but Frank just takes down normal human beings for the most part.

Wolverine goes after those that can pose a more significant threat than the cosa nostra or whatever.

 

[MeanLilBonnie]

Frank Castle is just a guy. Wolverine is a super hero that really couldn't exist, keeping him in a certain view by many as "pretend". When someone pretend kills someone it's generally ok. Castle straight up kills people and remains a normal dude. He's committing serious murder because he's "real". I actually like The Punisher better.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That has absolutely no bearing on the morality of the thing, and the difference in scale isn't quite as drastic as it seems. Frank goes after the mob, remember? Normal human beings who do considerable damage to people's lives by getting them hooked on drugs, murdering their families, forcing them to live their whole lives in fear, etc. Some of Wolverine's supervillains just kill people on a larger scale. Mystique isn't exactly posing a huge threat to the entire world, is she? She just crossed Wolverine one time too many with Messiah Complex, so Wolverine decided it's about time he got his murder on. Nitro has the power to murder hundreds at once, but the mob has the power to murder thousands over a longer period of time. Same thing in the end.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

That has absolutely no bearing on the morality of the thing. Frank goes after normal human beings who do considerable damage to people's lives by getting them hooked on drugs, murdering their families, etc. Wolverine's supervillains just do the same things on a larger scale, and even then, only some of the time. Mystique isn't exactly posing a huge threat to the entire world, is she? She just crossed Wolverine one time too many with Messiah Complex, so Wolverine decided it's about time he got his murder on.

Fair points.

But I'm using that to say why I think Wolverine is more popular, thusly, getting a pass on his murders.

He gets involved in the big events. He fights alongside the other heroes when the whole universe is at stake.

Frank rarely, if ever, does things like that. He just kills mafia goons.

I just think Wolverine has more relevance in the MU. Him being a mutant adds to that.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Ahhhh chucking out time down the local.

 

[Hound55]

Wolverine is part of a peace keeping force (or forceS) as an ex-weapon who has been honed in killing to the extent that often his response to a threat is to kill it. And he's unapologetic about it because its what's kept him alive (along with the healing factor) and its what's worked until now.

The Punisher is a sociopathic fascist who has declared his own war on crime and is just picking off as many of the criminal high-ups that he can track down in a way to both make them pay and to redeem himself for his family which he was unable to save.

Punisher has his own agendas and its why the others don't feel comfortable around him... because if they leave him alone with one of these types he's got that conflict of interests and its quite possible that he'll gun these people down even defenceless and in cold blood... or "give them a weapon" and then gun them down with little chance of survival.

Same thing applies, but to a lesser extent, with Moon Knight at this point. Its why both sides of Civil War looked at them with so much scrutiny...

Anyone have any thoughts on this... Not that I'm egocentric, mind. Just curious to know how my theory stands up to criticism...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Fair points.

But I'm using that to say why I think Wolverine is more popular, thusly, getting a pass on his murders.

He gets involved in the big events. He fights alongside the other heroes when the whole universe is at stake.

Frank rarely, if ever, does things like that. He just kills mafia goons.

I just think Wolverine has more relevance in the MU. Him being a mutant adds to that.

Well, in that case, I agree completely: Wolverine gets to not be treated like a murderer because he's more popular.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well, in that case, I agree completely: Wolverine gets to not be treated like a murderer because he's more popular.

Well yea that's I think it comes down to.

If Frank was more involved in the MU I think his popularity would rise too. In his first issue of his new Dark Reign series he almost took Osborne out. He needs to do more things like that.

But then it's a double edged sword really. Would his fans like him becoming more involved in the MU as a whole? Becoming more "commercialized" for lack of a better term? I don't think they would.

I felt that apprehension about Deadpool too. But that's for a different debate.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I know his MAX series was critically acclaimed in part because it eschewed the superhero stuff and kept things very real and gritty. So there's an audience out there who likes to see him kept separate from that. But his post-Civil War series did okay when he was hunting down supervillains as well, didn't it?

I was going to mention Deadpool as another character who's sort of between Wolverine and the Punisher on the scale of supervillains and such, who's actually spent a lot of his career trying not to kill people, but who's still rejected by the superhero community--including the X-Men--as a murderer. But then I realized that it's mostly because he's f***ing crazy that people don't want him around, not because he's killed a few people in his time.