Why Does Wolverine get a pass but the Punisher Doesn't?

[Ace of Knaves]

I know his MAX series was critically acclaimed in part because it eschewed the superhero stuff and kept things very real and gritty.

Well yea, Frank isn't your standard superhero and I'm sure a lot of people would prefer him to remain that way.

I was going to mention Deadpool as another character who's sort of between Wolverine and the Punisher on the scale of supervillains and such, who's actually spent a lot of his career trying not to kill people, but who's still rejected by the superhero community--including the X-Men--as a murderer. But then I realized that it's mostly because he's f***ing crazy that people don't want him around, not because he's killed a few people in his time.

Yea I think with Deadpool it's more to do with people not trusting him because he is crazy and has stabbed a few people in the back before, rather than just viewing him as a cold blooded killer.

 

[kguillou]

But the Punisher we see in the MAX series has no depth to him at all. He's just a cold killing machine. Maybe its just me, but if i can't sympathize with the character i'm reading about then there's a problem. I should be cheering Frank on when he kills people not hating him. He's just very one dimensional in the MAX series.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He has depth. Read Born. He's just been pushed to the point that his emotions are mostly burnt out of him and he keeps himself isolated so that he doesn't form any attachments. He's totally devoted to his mission.

But there was one scene where he rescued a little girl and showed genuine sympathy to her because she reminded him of his own kids. That was sweet.

 

[kguillou]

Fair enough, i guess i just got turned off after he blew Microchip's head off, seemed like a pretty *****e thing to do to your longtime partner and friend especially since he was trying to help Frank regain his humanity.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Frank saw it as a betrayal. That's what happens when you cross a psycho.

 

[kguillou]

But i thought Frank only killed criminals, he may have "betrayed" him but he's still an innocent no?

 

[Shockdingo]

To my memory he was doing stuff connected to crime. I forgot what it was but he was trying to put a positive spin on the whole thing. Frank didn't see it that way in the least.

Ok, checked Wikipedia: Micro and his new bosses were hunting for Bin Laden, but the funding for the operation came from heroin and weapons being funneled out the Afghanistan.

Also, I don't know about you, but when I read the Max line I was so disgusted with the villains I was happy to see Frank give them their just desserts. About the sympathy angle, I always remember the Max issue where he confronts the criminals in Rykers and murders them for their involvement in his family's murder. He describes in brutal detail what happened to his son, daughter and wife. It wasn't the clean easy and tragic pg-13 movie way; burned into his memory are these notable examples:
1.) His son looking down in fear as his insides are spilling out
2.) His daughter's brains coming out of her head.

Now I could be wrong about what happened to who, but he had to see that. For me, that's more than enough sympathy, no one should ever have to see something so obscenely graphic happen to their loved ones. I don't know, but for me, personally, I can't take horrible things happening to kids, it drives me bonkers, so for something so over the top, it pretty much comes back everytime I see Punisher gun someone down.

I had a discussion with my sister about Frank's personality, I don't see him as a bombastic rage train like wolverine. I see Frank as being dead inside, thus instead of explosive, he's more of a slow burning simmer. He gets disgusted and hateful, but only rarely does he lose it.

That's my $0.02.

 

[Roughneck]

If I recall, Chip was working with some ciminals or something.....or trying to stop the punisher in itself is a crime, to Frank, it's like obstruction of justice.


Also, I don't like the idea of the Punisher being embedded too far into Main Stream Marvel....I loved when he showed up when Daredevil was in prison, like sometimes he really works. But if he's too far in there, then stuff starts to suck. Marvel Team Up with Spiderman and Punisher.

Doc Ock is dead.

Marvel Team Up with Namor and the Punisher

Tiger Shark is dead.


Isn't that the whole reason Super Heroes don't kill? So that the writers don't have to keep making up new villains, or finding new ways to bring back dead ones?


That's the thing that really bothered me about the Punisher over the years...Jigsaw. How did Frank never manage to kill this guy?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Born also implies that Frank's had psychological scars festering since back in 'Nam, where he saw plenty of atrocities and had to commit a few of his own to escape alive. I completely agree with the assessment that he's dead inside. He's seen so much horror that he's burnt his emotions out and replaced everything with his mission. If it's not related to the mission, it's not relevant. I don't even think he's really angry at the people he kills anymore; he's just hardened into a black and white view that killing criminals is what he does, so that's what he does, in whatever forms they come.

 

[Anubis]

Another good emotional arc outta Punisher Max was when Barracuda kidnapped his daughter.

 

[kguillou]

Wait Punisher killed Doc Ock????

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Another good emotional arc outta Punisher Max was when Barracuda kidnapped his daughter.

Frank's got another daughter?

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, you remember that freaky CIA chick from the first arc that wanted to do him? Well, eventually, they did it, they met again for the last time when Frank was going to take down this fat Russian *****e and she died. He found out later that she had a kid and gave the little girl to her sister, and Barracuda, in order to draw him out to get some pay back for cutting off his fingers and, you know, nearly killing him, kidnapped her and seemingly killed her right in front of him. What followed, well, Brutal doesn't really accurately describe the battle that ensued. Turned out she wasn't dead, he returned her to her aunt and went on about his business.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Damn. I stopped reading the MAX series before Barracuda showed up, so I missed all that.

 

[Shockdingo]

It was a real good arc you should check it out dude, also, 'Cuda is NOT coming back from this one just to say. Arrrgh, reading Max and the current 616 issues makes me want more Punisher media. I'd like Marvel to try tv this time around instead of film. *sigh* a guy can dream though right?

 

[kguillou]

It would have to be an HBO or Showtime series. Punisher is too violent for prime time.

 

[Shockdingo]

True, I'd be fine with that though.

 

[The Englishman]

In this picture he has killed Iceman, HOW??

 

[Anubis]

What's that from?

 

[Tron Bonne]

Millar's run on Wolverine, that Old Man Logan nonsense or whatever it's called

 

[Anubis]

Oh yeah, all the superheroes were killed when all the villains teamed up. Basically what if Wanted happened in the MU.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Urg, I didn't even know that much. I skimmed through the first issue and just put it back when he started fighting inbred Hulk children or whatever.

 

[Anubis]

Only reason I know that is because I saw an article in Wizard awhile back.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Old Man Logan was a pretty cool "Elseworlds" sorta tale I thought.

 

[kguillou]

For an alternate future story that doesnt really count i'm enjoying it so far. There's some really cool moments in there, the latest issue where Wolvie faces off against the Red Skull is one of the most fun comics i've read recently. Its also extremely violent.