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Wolverine and the X-men Episode 20 'Breakdown'

He's not unsympathetic at all. Once again you twist things around to suit your own views.

I definitely don't see this Romeo/Juliet comparison at all. Logan's behavior around Jean is straight out of the comics. You can compare it to the movies, but the first movie only took that element from the comics as well.

Cyclops also has been an absolute bastard before with Wolverine and gotten into it with him. Look at the first issue of Astonishing.

Also, Jean had also shown a return to Wolverine's advances and attraction as well in the 616 comics.
 
Yeah Logan and Scott have fought over Jean, but It was never just cause Scott's a jealous Jerk. It was cause Wolverine clearly doing something inappropriate. He wouldn't attack him because he saw them talking. and we're not saying the show is wrong we're saying it's a really bad interpretation of a good character. I don't see any other characters in this show being completely rewritten as a waste of space, for all the characters not being used when they should in this show like Storm for example I'd rather her barely do anything over have her history be rewritten the same way Scott's did. this is a representation for kids of what the X-men are and if they watch this show and go by the comic they won't have any idea why Scott is the leader.
 
Lol. Scott's done much worse. You guys have this virtuous idealization of Scott who married a redhead that looked like Jean, had a son with her, and then dumped his family once he knew Jean came back and still failed to tell Jean that he re-married. Scott who left the X-men after he believed Jean was gone. Scott who had a mental affair with Emma when he was all damaged after his blip with Apocalypse.

It's like Scott is more than human to you guys.

What's so terrible about how they've written Storm? She's pretty much the same except she doesn't use all that bombastic dialogue from the 1990's show.
 
He's not unsympathetic at all. Once again you twist things around to suit your own views.

I like Cyclops as a character in general, but by the end of this episode he is completely unsympathetic. In W&TXM episode 20, he was revealed as a washout/failure as an X-Man who was ready to quit at any adversity or hardship until he connected to Jean, and then had to be led by the hand by her to perform even the most basic of battle tactics. Xavier needed to molly coddle him at every moment, like a man made out of a house of cards. He had a position on the team he never earned and could never defend when challenged.

Fighting Wolverine is not the issue; he BLASTS HIM IN THE BACK when it is clear that Logan has no interest in fighting back. Once Jean reveals why Logan won't fight him, Cyclops becomes all the more unsympathetic for all the times in the show, such as in episode 2 or 8, when he blasted Wolverine at the first instance he got. It makes him someone willing to exploit Wolverine's promise to his own missing girlfriend to land a cheap shot; that is NOT sympathetic. Cyclops is blasting the titular hero of the show IN THE BACK. You cannot root for that.

Again, if you just look at the episode alone unto itself without any other episode before or after it, maybe it works better. Taken into context with the rest, though, the impression was that Cyclops in this show is, literally, a needy spoiled brat who is lashing out at everyone because his mentor is now betting on a different horse. Cyclops was NEVER a leader or any sort of competent, commanding presence in this show. He was a tinpot teacher's pet who Wolverine has surpassed in every way. Wolverine is selfless, responsible, and honorable; everything Cyclops isn't and never was in this show.

Cyclops' needy obsession with Jean to fulfill his own ego issues is borderline insane and he's clearly using Emma Frost as nothing more than a vessel to find Jean for him, consciously or not aware of his he is twisting her feelings for him. Men who use woman are NOT sympathetic.

Cyclops has let his own irresponsibility and obsessions for his own ego's sake endanger his team at least twice. That is NOT sympathetic.

Sympathy and empathy are two different things. Just because one can understand someone doesn't mean you must justify their actions. Just because I now understand why Cyclops in this show is a petty, needy, irresponsible, dishonorable, selfish jerk doesn't mean he isn't all of these things in the eyes of the writers, and that doesn't make him or Wolverine come off any better.

I definitely don't see this Romeo/Juliet comparison at all. Logan's behavior around Jean is straight out of the comics. You can compare it to the movies, but the first movie only took that element from the comics as well.

Cyclops also has been an absolute bastard before with Wolverine and gotten into it with him. Look at the first issue of Astonishing.

In ASTONISHING X-MEN #1, Wolverine had intruded in Frost & Scott's bedroom and berated him for rebounding with her so soon after Jean's death. That isn't quite the same as in this episode where Logan berates Scott for being a "jealous boyfriend" who "Jean could do better than" and then proves Logan right within 15 seconds. Wolverine was the calm, honorable, collected one and Cyclops was the short sighted, petty, spoiled brat here. The only difference is that Logan can work in both positions, and Cyclops clearly doesn't.

Cyclops has gotten into it with Wolverine in the comics, but I thought past incarnations didn't matter.

As I said in my review, Cyclops has been the *****e in the comics that he is in this show; that simply isn't his best characterization. In the canon Marvel comics, Spider-Man once became so obsessed with his mission that he began calling himself "The Spider" and hit MJ, leaving her cowering on the floor. Yet if SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN depicted Peter as someone willing and able to slap his girlfriends around when they frustrated him, would anyone defend it and embrace it as, "well, he that that in the comics?" I don't think choosing to reinvent Scott for this show as being the embodiment of all of his worst features and all of his detractor's accusations of him combined does him or his rival Logan any favors, or makes the show any better.

As for ROMEO & JULIET, it seemed abundantly clear that in this show, it is similar to the films; Jean is destined for Logan, and Logan would be her perfect lover, if only that sad sack loser Cyclops hadn't been in the way, much as Prince Paris was the mate by contract to Juliet barring Romeo's path (besides the whole family war thing). Paris is hardly a sympathetic character. He's a wax-like dipstick.

Also, Jean had also shown a return to Wolverine's advances and attraction as well in the 616 comics.

Jean wasn't the problem in this episode. Jennifer Hale voiced her well and she wasn't the issue. It isn't her fault that Cyclops attached to her so morbidly, and reacted to Wolverine flirting with her so poorly. It isn't her fault that Cyclops is such a failure of a man that he can't even brush his teeth unless Jean holds his hand, apparently.

I've seen villains in cartoons who have a lessor obsession with a woman and better self esteems than Cyclops seems to have here. At this point I wonder why the hell he isn't a villain anyway; he might fit in better with the Brotherhood comparing notes about terrible families with Quicksilver at this rate. Cyclops did get a lot of fleshing out here, but nothing that is learned here makes him sympathetic, unless you are one of those types who feels that having a terrible childhood is justification to be a failure as an adult, to use others, to be irresponsible and selfish, and to be enviously petty. Spider-Man in the comics once called Carnage "the most innocent of all" despite the dozens of people he murdered because as a child he was molested, for instance. I disagree. Cyclops had a choice other than to be a petty waste of a man, and in WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN he's chosen wrong every chance he has gotten. That is NOT sympathetic.

W&TXM has been unique with Cyclops, uniquely delivering the least sympathetic version of the character put to animation.
 
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TheVileOne said:
Lol. Scott's done much worse. You guys have this virtuous idealization of Scott who married a redhead that looked like Jean, had a son with her, and then dumped his family once he knew Jean came back and still failed to tell Jean that he re-married. Scott who left the X-men after he believed Jean was gone. Scott who had a mental affair with Emma when he was all damaged after his blip with Apocalypse.

It's like Scott is more than human to you guys.

What's so terrible about how they've written Storm? She's pretty much the same except she doesn't use all that bombastic dialogue from the 1990's show.

You want to dig up comic book past stuff now? How about all the things Logan has done pre-Weapon X? WOLVERINE: ORIGINS has made it abundantly clear that Logan was a vicious a-hole before the adamantium bonding process, helping to create such menaces as Nuke via torture. Wolverine's left his share of abandoned kids in his wake himself.

Please. Cyclops is no angel, but neither is Wolverine.

Being merged to Apocalypse is as justifiable an excuse for actions as a "berserker rage".

For the record, I hated the bombastic Storm lines from the 90's show. If anything, I am glad she has talked like a normal person since.

The thing is, have we seen ANY of Logan's bad side? His worst? In this show, no. He is always the moral paragon, the poor honorable victim of Weapon X and a terrible life who uses that to strive to be a better man. Cyclops, at least in this episode, has done the exact opposite; used his life as an excuse to be a using dipstick. Why is Cyclops no better than his worst moments, but Logan always excels above them? He's the destined leader, the ideal strategist, and Xavier's surrogate son. Everything Cyclops was in incarnations of the franchise before the films. Which I am sure is sheer coincidence.
 
Lol. Scott's done much worse. You guys have this virtuous idealization of Scott who married a redhead that looked like Jean, had a son with her, and then dumped his family once he knew Jean came back and still failed to tell Jean that he re-married. Scott who left the X-men after he believed Jean was gone. Scott who had a mental affair with Emma when he was all damaged after his blip with Apocalypse.

It's like Scott is more than human to you guys.

What's so terrible about how they've written Storm? She's pretty much the same except she doesn't use all that bombastic dialogue from the 1990's show.



yes Scott has made mistakes we all know that but that was an insane situation. how would anyone deal with something like that? thinking the woman you intended to marry and spend the rest of your life with dying right in front of you and then showing up again when you have a new life.
i was just pointing out that people were saying that they barely use Storm for anything. meanwhile Scott is being used and they're taking away his character.

and yes Scott is human but in this Show Wolverine is God or at least the Jesus to Chucks God Complex he has from the future
 
You want to dig up comic book past stuff now? How about all the things Logan has done pre-Weapon X? WOLVERINE: ORIGINS has made it abundantly clear that Logan was a vicious a-hole before the adamantium bonding process, helping to create such menaces as Nuke via torture. Wolverine's left his share of abandoned kids in his wake himself.

Please. Cyclops is no angel, but neither is Wolverine.

That's not the point. Wolverine in the show acknowledges that he's a monster. He calls himself a monster.

You just have Cyclops on this pedestal and you think the show has taken him off his pedestal, and you can't handle it.

I'm well aware of Wolverine's past transgressions. Yet YOU act like Cyclops can't have any, and quite frankly it's gotten rather tiresome.

Being merged to Apocalypse is as justifiable an excuse for actions as a "berserker rage".

It wasn't Berserker rage. He became a dick and shut himself out from his wife and ran into the arms of a blonde sexpot.

The thing is, have we seen ANY of Logan's bad side? His worst? In this show, no. He is always the moral paragon, the poor honorable victim of Weapon X and a terrible life who uses that to strive to be a better man. Cyclops, at least in this episode, has done the exact opposite; used his life as an excuse to be a using dipstick. Why is Cyclops no better than his worst moments, but Logan always excels above them? He's the destined leader, the ideal strategist, and Xavier's surrogate son. Everything Cyclops was in incarnations of the franchise before the films. Which I am sure is sheer coincidence.

Yes we have. I've pointed them out many times.
 
That's not the point. Wolverine in the show acknowledges that he's a monster. He calls himself a monster.
But he doesn't act like one, at all. It's an informed attribute.

Now, if the show's premise was that Cyclops used to be Cyclops, but isn't because of Jean and Professor X's disappearance, that's one thing. But by this episode, Cyclops was always worthless; Professor X spent years trying to make him into what he is in the comics, and got absolutely no return on investment.
 
Also it's pretty clear anything you said were bad traits of Cyclops have in no way happened in this show Jean has died, he didn't marry Maddy have a son and leave her when Jean came back none of it, but Logan has. which is another reason why you're argument of who you think Scott Summers is doesn't hold up.
 
But he doesn't act like one, at all. It's an informed attribute.

Now, if the show's premise was that Cyclops used to be Cyclops, but isn't because of Jean and Professor X's disappearance, that's one thing. But by this episode, Cyclops was always worthless; Professor X spent years trying to make him into what he is in the comics, and got absolutely no return on investment.

EXACTLY! That is precisely what I was saying. Thank you.

And what I am saying is, this interpretation of Cyclops does not make him sympathetic, and it doesn't make Logan's accomplishment of reassembling the team and leading it, albeit with Xavier's tactical and emotional support, as much of an accomplishment because Logan was literally replacing nothing. And I respectfully have problems with such an interpretation.
 
But he doesn't act like one, at all. It's an informed attribute.

Look what happened to him when he was captured by Mojo. This is something that constantly happens to him in the 616 verse. He's brainwashed and forced to fight against his comrades or other heroes. Also what we've seen in the show is not the extent of Wolverine's history.

Now, if the show's premise was that Cyclops used to be Cyclops, but isn't because of Jean and Professor X's disappearance, that's one thing. But by this episode, Cyclops was always worthless; Professor X spent years trying to make him into what he is in the comics, and got absolutely no return on investment.

Once again, twisting things around. There's obviously a gap of history that's not depicted. When we see Cyclops join the X-men he's just started and not quite become the great leader yet.

The main complaint I seem to see is that the show doesn't depict Cyclops as absolute best fearless leader. That's not the point of the show.
 
No it's not about the fearless leader aspect it's about the not being the same character at all aspect.
 
Look what happened to him when he was captured by Mojo. This is something that constantly happens to him in the 616 verse. He's brainwashed and forced to fight against his comrades or other heroes. Also what we've seen in the show is not the extent of Wolverine's history.

Once again, missing the forest for the trees. Being brainwashed and cybernetically controlled by Mojo does not make Wolverine a monster; it makes him a victim of a monster.

Now, if Wolverine lost his temper in a training simulation and suddenly was attacking people, or, say, in episode 8 when Cyke thought he was fighting Angel and quickly retaliated, THEN that would make him a monster. But in this show he isn't. Hell, he honors the promise he made to a woman who has been missing for over a year. He feels responsible for random ninja attacks when he was fulfilling his end of the bargain with the ninja. Wolverine is not a monster. The worst thing he did in this show was strap Wraith to his own torture machine, but that was in episode 1. It has been a while since then, and I doubt few felt sorry for Wraith.

Once again, twisting things around. There's obviously a gap of history that's not depicted. When we see Cyclops join the X-men he's just started and not quite become the great leader yet.

The main complaint I seem to see is that the show doesn't depict Cyclops as absolute best fearless leader. That's not the point of the show.

I could be fine if Cyclops wasn't the leader. What does annoy me is when Wolverine has to be the "absolute best fearless leader" at the expense of almost every character around him. Relationships that used to belong to other characters are now his. And somehow Logan being Xavier's adopted son and a leader who is so skilled that not even his mistakes endanger his team for long is suddenly the most fleshed thing ever?

All I see is favoritism in some of the writing, and that makes it more boring and one sided than it has to be. There's a deeper show beneath the surface if only the X-Men were written as distinct, important and vibrant characters who happened to be led by Wolverine (himself one of such characters) by circumstance, rather than a band of clearly inferior mutants who owe everything to Logan's almighty claws.
 
Dread, I think its time for you to stick with the 90's show on Disney XD that's about to get re-released on DVD.

Also X-men Evolution.

And TMNT: Back To The Sewers.
 
To sumIn some ways this matches Joss Whedon's assessment of Scott in his ASTONISHING X-MEN run, in that Whedon wrote Scott as being a generic X-Man with virtually no will or confidence who would have left the team had Xavier not given him the "merit badge" of leadership that he never had to actually earn, and whenever he tried, he lost.

While I 100% agree with your assessment of this episode, I don't agree with this assessment of the scene in Astonishing. I don't think Emma actually believes it and I'm almost positive Joss doesn't. Yes, Emma tells hime everything you just said. But unlike WATXM, we've had 40 years of proof that Cyclops can be a great leader. What Joss did there was something he's done in his work quite a bit; take your hero and completely tear them down so when you build them back up, it's all the more inspiring and heroic. To quote Topher in a recent episode of Joss' Dollhouse, "Humility is part of the learning process. I break you down. Then, I build you back up." He did it with Buffy, Angel and Serenity as well. Now, you can argue that Joss didn't do that good of a job with "bringing him back up" and from a "just AXM" perspective, Emma's speech was more credible than his later actions, but I don't think that was Joss' intention and I certainly don't think Joss actually believes that Cyclops is a generic X-Man, who's only a leader because Xavier told him to.
 
Cyclops got some anger management issues, I thought this episode was great. Its nice to see jean and I kind of like this Cyclops, *****e bag and all.
 
Dread, I think its time for you to stick with the 90's show on Disney XD that's about to get re-released on DVD.

I own 'em on bootleg but I likely will support the new releases.

Also X-men Evolution.

If Warner Home Video would finally released all eight episodes of Season 4 on DVD, I'd own 'em already.

And TMNT: Back To The Sewers.

That's cold and you know it. While I've watched most of that, TMNT's 2k3 run ended with "The Lost Season". The rest was barely worth watching, let alone owning.

While I 100% agree with your assessment of this episode, I don't agree with this assessment of the scene in Astonishing. I don't think Emma actually believes it and I'm almost positive Joss doesn't. Yes, Emma tells hime everything you just said. But unlike WATXM, we've had 40 years of proof that Cyclops can be a great leader. What Joss did there was something he's done in his work quite a bit; take your hero and completely tear them down so when you build them back up, it's all the more inspiring and heroic. To quote Topher in a recent episode of Joss' Dollhouse, "Humility is part of the learning process. I break you down. Then, I build you back up." He did it with Buffy, Angel and Serenity as well. Now, you can argue that Joss didn't do that good of a job with "bringing him back up" and from a "just AXM" perspective, Emma's speech was more credible than his later actions, but I don't think that was Joss' intention and I certainly don't think Joss actually believes that Cyclops is a generic X-Man, who's only a leader because Xavier told him to.

You have a point. Whedon appeared to have a better grasp of Cyclops, or at least found him more interesting, than Colossus, who Whedon in at least one WIZARD interview claimed he had trouble getting a handle on.

My issue with Whedon's arc for Cyclops is that he basically simply turned him into Captain Mal Reynolds from FIREFLY/SERENITY after TORN. There was one Cassaday drawn splash page that was basically lifted from a promo image of Nathan Fillon in the part, aiming a gun at the camera. To me that seemed easy and sloppy. That's like if I was writing Cyclops and just had him act like Optimus Prime.

Then there was that bit where Cyclops was overwhelming Cassandra Nova's psychic illusions by shooting them with a handgun. For the life of me that makes no damn sense. By that logic no telepath could ever fool the Punisher.

But, yeah, I can see your point about building him back up. I do tire of "character is rendered powerless and forced to become 12 times as efficient" because I always roll my eyes and go, "well, then after they get their powers back, they should now be even more efficient" and they rarely are for story convenience. Still, I can see Whedon's point of wanting to have Cyclops come out of his shell I guess. It could have been better, but then again, Whedon's whole AXM run after "Cure" could have been better. Still, at least his influence on the franchise has continued, even into this series with Tilde.

Cyclops got some anger management issues, I thought this episode was great. Its nice to see jean and I kind of like this Cyclops, *****e bag and all.

Someone had to. ;)

I am just curious, why? It seemed clear to me that Cyclops in this show was a coddled "Never Was" who never fulfilled Xavier's expectations of him and was hardly a leader long before Wolverine showed up, and became a jealous backstabbing (or back-blasting) jerkbag after. I mean I guess it all comes to personal taste, I guess.
 
Dread, I think its time for you to stick with the 90's show on Disney XD that's about to get re-released on DVD.

Also X-men Evolution.

And TMNT: Back To The Sewers.

Vile, your counterarguments have been weak so far, so i dont see why you need to tell dread this, as he's been right about cyclops on this show...you fail to understand that the problem is that this cyclops has NO redeemable qualities to him, and he does not seem like the cyclops many know. You talk about gaps in history, but the fact is, if the cartoon WANTED to show scott's good points, they would have. But, they've buried him with this single ep, and because of that, i think im done with this series.
 
Because Dread makes all these longwinded rants about Cyclops because Cyclops is his pet character. He can't stand that the show is doing something different and they are doing something different but still VALID with Cyclops considering the history of Cyclops.
 
Because Dread makes all these longwinded rants about Cyclops because Cyclops is his pet character. He can't stand that the show is doing something different and they are doing something different but still VALID with Cyclops considering the history of Cyclops.

That isn't why I have taken issue with bits of this episode, and I think I have made that very clear. X-MEN EVOLUTION was about as "different" from the 90's X-Men series as well as from the comics as one could imagine and I still greatly enjoyed that. BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD is a far contrast from most Batman cartoons of the past 15 years and that's good fun. Even SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN or the 2k3 TMNT took some liberties with new ideas and that wasn't a deal breaker. It is not a fear of change that plagues me.

A new idea has to work in terms of the show itself and the characters as presented in it. I simply feel that a version of Cyclops here as depicted does not benefit the audience or the show itself as if it had been handled better. Had the episode depicted a Cyclops who had fallen from grace, who used to be some kind of decent and capable leader until he lost Jean and Xavier in the pilot, that would have worked out far better than walking human psychosis and black hole of potential that he has been revealed as. A Scott in this show who was a "Never Was", who was never any kind of competent leader or X-Man, who failed time and again without needing to be coddled by others, and who at the slightest provocation becomes petty, cowardly, vengeful, and selfish does the show, or Wolverine, no favors. He does not have a rivalry in Cyclops, because Logan is now clearly the better man and X-Man, without question or competition. Now any argument they have has a decided outcome; Scott is truly a useless jerk, so Logan is usually right to call him on it. I truly don't know how many times I can present my point about my dissatisfaction.

The show's writers have clearly chosen to take Scott's worst character flaws from the comics and present them as a vital, perennial aspect of his character. It may be easy to understand him now that we know his backstory, but it is not easy to sympathize with the X-Man who has been presented here. He is a coward. He is selfish. He is obsessive and needy, to the point of psychotic obsession. He is incompetent and needs to be emotionally back-rubbed at the slightest drawback or inconvenience. The show's premise was that Logan was forced to fill the role that Cyclops one held, because Cyclops had been crippled by grief. This episode basically says that didn't occur, because there was no role for Logan to fill; it has been vacant since the school was founded, and Cyclops was never fit for it. The show's premise was supposed to be Wolverine forced by circumstance to become the ideal X-Man because the other prime candidate was in turmoil; now we see that there WAS no other prime candidate, because Cyclops was insufficient for the role even WITH Jean, and so therefore Logan is overcoming no prior role model to take his position. He is simply filling a seat that was left open for him.

Cyclops may be the opposite of Wolverine in this show, but so is Sabretooth. In this show, Wolverine is selfless, in control of his temper at most times, tactical, self-aware, determined, confident, and level headed. Cyclops is selfish, reckless, petty, jealous, obsessive, incompetent, and has no self esteem. At first we thought he was like this by losing Jean; now we learn that he was ALWAYS like this, often even WITH Jean, and so now there is no hope. Wolverine honors promises made to woman; Scott uses them for his own needs. Wolverine would NEVER attack ANYONE from the back. This episode revealed that Scott had been exploiting Logan's honor to land cheap shots against him at least once or twice. Wolverine is never rattled; Cyclops is always rattled. And so on.

This show sought to have conflict between the two characters with Wolverine perhaps trying to fill Scott's shoes, or with both men seeing who is the better X-Man. After this episode, there is no rivalry. Logan is clearly the better man in every way possible that any comparison is fruitless. It is like choosing who would be a better leader of the Justice League; Batman or Mad Hatter.

My problem with all this is not that it is different. My problem with this is that this does not best serve the premise of the show, and simplifies character dynamics that would be more interesting for all involved if they were more complex and not as cut and dry. This show needs Cyclops to be a sympathetic character to get tension out of him, and they have failed in my eyes with the turns in the latter third of the episode. They also needed Cyclops to have a past history of competence so we can realize what a contrast he now is acting as, but we do not have that; he was ALWAYS an incompetent, emotional wretch. The show needed a genuine rivalry between the two where the audience may even be split in a way; instead we have a clear pattern of Wolverine = Superior, Cyclops = Inferior. Perhaps it was a failed experiment, but I do not feel the show is better for it. Characters are not usually better for being dismissed, and shows are not usually better when the resolution of any conflict between them is mapped in advance and clear. Had the situation been less cut and dry, handled differently, the show would be more complex, and deep. With some characters, like Archangel, the show has succeeded. With Cyclops, they have now utterly failed.

You disagree, and that is fine.

As for the "it was in the comics" angle, all characters have had periods in the comics where they have been unsympathetic; however, those runs are usually blips on the radar and they are not usually the best runs to emulate and to consider "the heart of the character at all times". In some 90's comics, Spider-Man was so obsessed with his crusade that his sanity splintered, he referred to himself in third person, and he hit MJ. This is fully documented and one could get out issue numbers and everything. Yet if a show decided to establish Peter Parker as a character as a life long abuser or women based on this episode, most would find it as ill suited for a Spider-Man show, even if it has comic context. Wolverine has had long stretches of time in the comics where he was a savage fighter, killing even the most minor of minions for no reason; where he used borderline ethnic slurs constantly ("Irish", "Russkie", "Redskin"), where he viciously attacked any ally who mocked him in any way, and where he rebelled against all authority. Yet these depictions would not suit this show's version of Wolverine, and have been omitted. They would not fit in with the tone of the show, and if used the show would likely be weaker and more chaotic; a Logan with NO HOPE of EVER being a competent leader would be equally boring as a Cyclops who was so inefficient that he left no void to fill, just an empty unclaimed seat. Writing Wolverine from his worst points would not be good, either. It would be simplistic and boring, hurting the show overall.

You are free to disagree, and if you want to just dismiss all of my points as mere bias or fear of change, I can't stop you.

In conclusion, yes, my criticisms of this episode were harsh. The episode let me down. I was genuinely all ready to like it. I counted down the hours practically until I could watch it. It is just a shame they chose the tracts they did for it. I don't believe they were helpful or necessary.

To end the post on a positive note, the worse Cyclops looks, in some ways the better (or more desperate) Emma Frost seems in reaching out to him. Now here is a character who is genuinely sympathetic.
 
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You say it doesn't benefit the audience yet the audience loves the show and the show is a huge success worldwide and a second season is being produced.
 
Because Dread makes all these longwinded rants about Cyclops because Cyclops is his pet character. He can't stand that the show is doing something different and they are doing something different but still VALID with Cyclops considering the history of Cyclops.

Just because it's valid dosent mean it's right....they are literally taking the worst aspects of cyclops' character, the ones that make him seem pathetic, and fail to show us his good attributes. I agree with pretty much everything dread has said. The episode made cyke pathetically dependant on jean grey, made him look like a jerk against wolverine, and pretty much confirmed to me that this cartoon is basically "X3" animated....
 
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I didn't get the impression from anything Dread said that he thinks Cyclops is his pet character. All I got was someone saying they don't like this representation of the character.

What I said earlier some where in here was I'd prefer they keep Cyclops in the background rather that represent him like this. Imagine if they took all the worst aspects of every other character on the X-Men and started using entire episodes to spotlight them. It wouldn't be the X-men anymore just a cartoon with the name. Hopefully the give Cyclops something redeemable.

You say it doesn't benefit the audience yet the audience loves the show and the show is a huge success worldwide and a second season is being produced.
X3 was the most successful X-men movie. it's clear the audience will like things that aren't true to the source material in any way. I think it would benefit the audience more if they got the characters right. but that isn't what audiences want.
 
X-men Evolution gave the best interpretations of Scott and Jean, and I really miss them. Scott was a good balance between "rules are cool," being a leader, learning and growing, and really caring about his team and Jean. Jean had the persona of being "Ms Perfect" but deep inside she was struggling with power, and Scott was always there for her. They were great on their own, and they were great separately. And no mention (except for the finale) was made of Phoenix, which was nice. I'm a big fan of them, but I still didn't hate the episode. I loved the flashbacks, how true to the comics this show is, and that fight with the O5 against Magneto was fantastic. So up to about halfway in I thought I would love this episode... but I just ended up borderline liking it.

But than things became about Wolverine and how much better he is than Scott ever is/was. The beginning of the flashbacks were great, but then it got redundant when Scott wasn't shown how I wanted him to be. This show would be much better if they showed how psychologically crippled he was until Xavier and Jean helped him develop and grow (which this episode did a good job of doing, except for the growing part...) and then having him rebuild his character without them (which this episode shows he can't do). I thought that would be a great direction for him to go in, with a lot of character growth potential. And then maybe Jean could come back a season from now, and Scott being a much better person for having to learn without her.

I still think he's redeemable though, I just don't think they will.

But I've decided that I'm not going to worry about the characters in this show, and just go along for the ride. It has some great storylines up in the air, it's incorporating things from the comics that have never been in a cartoon, and a lot is true to the comics. I would love to feel for the characters, but I really only care about Angel and Nightcrawler. I like characters over plot, which is why I'm probably going to like Evo more than this, but its still a fun show to watch.

The revelation at the end, and how it actually ended definitely kept me intrigued for the next episode.
 
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(first post for me here. yay)

Cyclops is my favorite X-men character and like others, I really wanted to like this episode about him, but in the end I just couldn't. As I was watching it I couldn't help but wonder if the writers had a specific mandate not to show Cyclops as being halfway competent ever. He was terrible in the danger room and need Jean to hold his hand against Magneto. What happened to the fearless leader of the X-men?

And the sad part is that I know that the writers know that Cyclops is capable of some serious badassery, as shown in episode 12 where he delivered a serious beatdown to Sinister's mooks. Those were among the best actions scenes in the series so far, and it's almost as if the writers were afraid that if they showed Cyclops as being awesome in this episode he'd start to eclipse Wolvie, and so decide to screw him over.

Just like Wolverine calling himself a monster being a purely informed weakness, Cyclops' former supposed leadership seems to be an informed ability. We know that somewhere between being a total woobie in this episode and being a total badass in episode 12 he must have had some serious training and moments of awesome, but we never get to see them! Would it have so hard the show a few quick scenes (stillframes, even!) right after the part where Emma says that Jean took Scott's pain away of him leading the team with half the deadly efficiency and effectiveness that he does in the comics, maybe putting the beatdown on a few supervillains? Would that have been so hard? And it would have made his fall into emo-ness much more emotionally powerful.
 

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