Wonder Woman vs the Dark Knight

[DarthSkywalker]

I like how on everyone of this list, the only movie continuously in the top 2 is TDK.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You'd think at some point I'd learn to stop arguing with fanboys but...here I go again. Searched "best superhero movies of all time" and sorted by past year to keep it relatively up to date.

Top result: https://www.dailydot.com/parsec/best-superhero-movies-ranked/

Iron Man and The Winter Soldier outrank TDK with the latter getting the top spot. Humorously, the article includes "The Dark Knight is not number one on this list. You have been warned." because the phenomona I've been describing all afternoon is obvious outside of the DC fanboy bubble.

Second result: https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/01/the-100-best-superhero-movies-of-all-time.html?p=4

The Avengers, which was being laughed off earlier in this thread, outranks TDK.

For good measure, RottenTomatoes also put out it's own ranking a few days ago and Logan outranks TDK: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/50-best-superhero-movies-of-all-time/5/ This happens despite the fact that Logan had to compete with much more competition (about 40 superhero movies came out between Logan and TDK that Logan was compared to but TDK obviously wasn't.)

This got me curious about Metacritic because that score obviously has a bit more nuance to it. The most recent article they put out comparing Marvel and DC films was 2010 unfortunately, but amazingly, even then TDK was beaten by Spider-Man 2:
http://www.metacritic.com/feature/best-and-worst-comic-book-movies

To recap: 1) the two most popular articles from the past year ranking superhero films have TDK lower than Marvel films and 2) the most recent rankings from the two most popular aggregates have TDK lower than Marvel films.

Considering critics like these have been the foundation of your argument so far...I can't wait to see how you guys explain that these links don't count as solid, concrete evidence that TDK has been "surpassed." Or are they just delusions in my mind? Do they not count because I'm long-winded???

Seriously, though, I do feel bad for you guys and I'm not meaning to be cruel by pointing this out. TDK deserves respect, especially for it's time, and all I'm saying is that the MCU has passed it by. I'm out of this thread after this post, I'm clearly either twisting a dagger or talking to a brick wall at this point and I don't care to do either of those things.

This is great. This was my google search, for "best superhero movies":

https://www.google.com/search?q=bes...2j69i65j0l3.6605j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

In the top 10 results, not involving the one Marvel specific movies, TDK ranked:

1
2 (Logan #1)
2 (The Dark Knight Rises #1)
1
3 (The Incredibles #1)
1
1
4 (The Incredibles #1)
1 (The Dark Trilogy Listed as #1)

Another article list Wonder Woman as the best Superhero movie since TDK and TDK is the first movie that comes up in Google's own list. So would you like to explain, how this is TDK losing its luster exactly?

 

[Lantern Venom]

Wonder Woman is a solid film, but it's hardly a top 5 CBM. It's not even a top 5 origin film. And as good or better than TDK? LOL!

 

[The Batman]

Since Darth has already successfully responded to Neal's post about the lists, I'd still like to know how this poll, where TDK has triple the votes of WW, is proof of TDK's relevance diminishing.

EDIT: Oh, wait, he left the thread, nevermind.

 

[InCali]

there may never be a superhero film that come close to the Dark Knight's extraordinary and unique elements of story line plot, twists and turns in combination with the performance of the late Heath Ledgers' Joker.

but make no mistake, the success of Wonder Woman vastly helped the stock of DC films which have been underwhelming to say the least.
and it's no longer just depending on Batman or Superman now.

i hope director Patty jenkins gets another go at it again for the sequel of Wonder Woman 2.

She did a really nice job and I think all hell will break loose if she doesn't direct the next movie. Finally, a post Nolan DC movie that was a good movie (I liked one of the bad ones...SS to be specific). I don't know if she "saved" DCEU, but she certainly elevated it.

In fact, Patty surpassed TDK, The Godfather, Casablanca....it's objectively the greatest movie ever made. She showed Martin Scorsese what it's like to make a great movie.....AND the Warriors lost tonight because Kevin Durant can't play basketball and Curry can't hit a free throw.

I loved The Avengers, GotG, AoU, TWS, IM, CW, etc. and I can understand that some people didn't like TDK or Ledger's performance, but the preponderance of opinion shows that most people don't agree. It doesn't make you wrong to have an opinion outside the mainstream, but if you're going to say TDK has been "surpassed", I'd be interested in knowing how that conclusion was reached.

 

[BatOnTheWing]

The Dark Knight, not to take anything from Wonder Woman.

While I do find Wonder Woman to be an epic film, The Dark Knight
left me in a whirlwind of emotions after my very first viewing. There was
just a magic to it that Wonder Woman didn't quite achieve, and that's okay.

 

[InCali]

The Dark Knight, not to take anything from Wonder Woman.

While I do find Wonder Woman to be an epic film, The Dark Knight
left me in a whirlwind of emotions after my very first viewing. There was
just a magic to it that Wonder Woman didn't quite achieve, and that's okay.

I think you are in the majority with that opinion....maybe just because it's pretty close to mine. t:

I genuinely liked WW and I think Gal's acting will improve as she gets the character more and more AND sharpens her acting chops.

 

[Rowsdower!]

TDK, but Wonder Woman is still pretty great and I look forward to more films featuring Diana.

 

[InCali]

TDK, but Wonder Woman is still pretty great and I look forward to more films featuring Diana.

Easily the best of the DCEU movies IMO. Patty has it right. I like who Diana is and can relate to her concerns. On one hand she is a simple, honest, caring individual. Just below the surface, we get hints of a more complex person. The next installment will hopefully bring those more to the surface and Gal will be prepared to present them. Very strong movie and deserving of the credit it's getting.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Easily the best of the DCEU movies IMO. Patty has it right. I like who Diana is and can relate to her concerns. On one hand she is a simple, honest, caring individual. Just below the surface, we get hints of a more complex person. The next installment will hopefully bring those more to the surface and Gal will be prepared to present them. Very strong movie and deserving of the credit it's getting.

Absolutely. I'm a little torn over the setting of Diana's next solo film; on one hand, I'd like to see how Diana handles present day threats, but on the other hand, we still don't know what she was up to for the past 100 years. And I suppose JL will show us plenty of Diana today (and hopefully it will be good).

 

[Boom]

Since Darth has already successfully responded to Neal's post about the lists, I'd still like to know how this poll, where TDK has triple the votes of WW, is proof of TDK's relevance diminishing.

EDIT: Oh, wait, he left the thread, nevermind.

The Dark Knight is ranked #33 on the BBC’s “100 Greatest Films of the 21st Century” (last updated August 2016). No superhero film is ranked above it.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160819-the-21st-centurys-100-greatest-films

The Dark Knight earned a worldwide box office of $1,004,558,444, and a domestic box office of $533,345,358. While it has been surpassed at the worldwide BO by such films as The Dark Knight Rises, Captain America: Civil War, Iron Man 3, Avengers: Age of Ultron, and Marvel’s The Avengers, its domestic BO is second only to The Avengers. It is the sixth highest grossing movie of all time in the United States. It was also the first superhero film to break over $1 billion dollars at the box office without the appeal of a shared cinematic universe and without 3D.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=superhero.htm

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

The Dark Knight sits at a RottenTomatoes score of 94%, with 324 total reviews and an average score of 8.6/10. It is currently the highest rated superhero film on that website. It also sits at a MetaCritic score of 82, based on 39 reviews. It is second only to Spider-Man 2 (83 rating, out of 41 reviews). The Dark Knight won 45 Film Critic Awards, having been nominated for 67 of them.

http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-dark-knight

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_The_Dark_Knight#Film_Critics_Awards

The Dark Knight received nominations by the Directors Guild of America, the Writers Guild of America, and the Producers Guild of America. When it was not nominated for Best Picture at the Academy Awards, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences expanded the Best Picture category to ten nominees. They said, and I quote:

“I would not be telling you the truth if I said the words ‘Dark Knight’ did not come up.” – Sidney Ganis

The film went on to receive eight Oscar nominations, winning two of them. No superhero film has received as many Oscar nominations before or since. It is arguably the first superhero film of the modern era to receive serious consideration for the top categories (Picture, Director, Screenplay) as evidenced above.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/awards?ref_=tt_awd

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/movies/25oscars.html


So we have a film that is:
-one of the highest-grossing films of all time domestically
-one of the highest-grossing films of all time worldwide
-the most critically-acclaimed superhero film of all time
-the most awarded superhero film of all time
-consistently rated as the best superhero film of all time by fans and professional outlets (I can cherry-pick Google searches too)

All of that, without the aid of the shared universe gimmick or 3D ticket prices.

 

[Richard Grayson]

The Dark Knight is ranked #33 on the BBC’s “100 Greatest Films of the 21st Century” (last updated August 2016). No superhero film is ranked above it.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160819-the-21st-centurys-100-greatest-films

The Dark Knight earned a worldwide box office of $1,004,558,444, and a domestic box office of $533,345,358. While it has been surpassed at the worldwide BO by such films as The Dark Knight Rises, Captain America: Civil War, Iron Man 3, Avengers: Age of Ultron, and Marvel’s The Avengers, its domestic BO is second only to The Avengers. It is the sixth highest grossing movie of all time in the United States. It was also the first superhero film to break over $1 billion dollars at the box office without the appeal of a shared cinematic universe and without 3D.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=superhero.htm

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

The Dark Knight sits at a RottenTomatoes score of 94%, with 324 total reviews and an average score of 8.6/10. It is currently the highest rated superhero film on that website. It also sits at a MetaCritic score of 82, based on 39 reviews. It is second only to Spider-Man 2 (83 rating, out of 41 reviews). The Dark Knight won 45 Film Critic Awards, having been nominated for 67 of them.

http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-dark-knight

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_The_Dark_Knight#Film_Critics_Awards

The Dark Knight received nominations by the Directors Guild of America, the Writers Guild of America, and the Producers Guild of America. When it was not nominated for Best Picture at the Academy Awards, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences expanded the Best Picture category to ten nominees. They said, and I quote:

“I would not be telling you the truth if I said the words ‘Dark Knight’ did not come up.” – Sidney Ganis

The film went on to receive eight Oscar nominations, winning two of them. No superhero film has received as many Oscar nominations before or since. It is arguably the first superhero film of the modern era to receive serious consideration for the top categories (Picture, Director, Screenplay) as evidenced above.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/awards?ref_=tt_awd

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/movies/25oscars.html


So we have a film that is:
-one of the highest-grossing films of all time domestically
-one of the highest-grossing films of all time worldwide
-the most critically-acclaimed superhero film of all time
-the most awarded superhero film of all time
-consistently rated as the best superhero film of all time by fans and professional outlets (I can cherry-pick Google searches too)

All of that, without the aid of the shared universe gimmick or 3D ticket prices.

And boom.

 

[BatLobster]

It's honestly a bit unfair and tiresome to always compare every well-received superhero movie that comes out to TDK.

I really, really liked Wonder Woman. The fact that it isn't TDK-level shouldn't even be part of the conversation, it's an awesome movie that did exactly what it needed to do and then some. I think it may have made my top 10.

The difference to me is simple. WW is like a pure embodiment of what the superhero genre is, whereas TDK aims (and succeeds IMO) to transcend the confines of that genre and ends up being something wholly unique as a result. I'm not saying that alone makes TDK a better movie, but I'm saying it makes it an apples and oranges situation when it comes to most other superhero films. Comparing Logan to TDK, I can understand. Even though I still find those two films to be quite different in their aims, I think there's an argument for Logan being a spiritual successor to TDK in terms of fully embracing a cinematic genre so thoroughly (crime film/western).

I think comparing Wonder Woman to Batman Begins or other superhero origin films would be more fair. Personally, I put it on about the same level as the first Iron Man. I think it very well could go on to become a modern classic, especially because of the social significance. It's a big moment for the genre to be sure. I really wish I had enjoyed Man of Steel this much.

 

[Levathian]

Did i just read a few pages back that Avengers is better than TDK ? What kind of s**t you are on brah ? lol

lol @ TDK having been surpassed and forgotten. MCU fanboy at its finest.

 

[dallywhitty]

I feel TDK is one of the most overrated films in history. So I'm walking into this with too much baggage against that film. I feel BB and TDKR are better films.

Couldn't agree more.

The Dark Knight has a couple of great performances, but that's the extent of its virtues for me. Otherwise it's a self-important slog of a film with horrible dialogue and a third act which seems to go on forever.

 

[Steamteck]

I feel TDK is one of the most overrated films in history. So I'm walking into this with too much baggage against that film. I feel BB and TDKR are better films.

I feel that Batman Begins is a far superior film. However after TDK , I wasn't expecting much from TDKR and was still disappointed.

 

[King Shark]

Okay, we can pretty much all accept that Wonder Woman is a vastly superior film to Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad - Personally, I think it was definitely better than Man of Steel (although not by as much as critics suggest, as I think MoS got a worse reception than it deserved).

However, it's current RT ranking puts it on a par with The Dark Knight, which is probably the best superhero film ever made IMO (and there are one or two people who agree with me) and is held up, by some, as one of the best films ever made, full stop.y

And yes, I realise that RT ratings are not the be all and end all of determining a film's quality. However, why not ask the question ?

Is Wonder Woman as good as TDK ? Better ? Not as good ? Are you snorting derisively at my temerity for asking ?

And.....go !

It's not on par at all. Percentage doesn't mean much. You can have two movies with 90%, but one movie is regarded by those 90% as amazing and the other as simply solid. And you can see that by looking at the actual rating. WW has 7.6 while TDK has 8.6. Even Rises has a higher rating than WW.

 

[BH/HHH]

Movies are subjective there's no facts on one been better than another. It's about personal taste end of the day.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Having finally seen WW (and loving it), still going with TDK.

 

[Patchwork Man]

Did i just read a few pages back that Avengers is better than TDK ?

Whoothuheck said that?!

Movies are subjective there's no facts on one been better than another. It's about personal taste end of the day.

I agree. Wonder Woman isn't going to unseat The Dark Knight as the critical crown jewel of Warner-DC-produced CBMs, but it's a stellar film that has won just about everyone over.

That said, I voted for Option #4, because the idea of a poll like this one is...off. That's all I'll say.

 

[DarthDaveBanner]

Wonder Woman is solid.
The Dark Knight is phenomenal.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Toss-up for me, but I've only seen WW once.

 

[The Joker]

The Dark Knight is ranked #33 on the BBC’s “100 Greatest Films of the 21st Century” (last updated August 2016). No superhero film is ranked above it.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160819-the-21st-centurys-100-greatest-films

The Dark Knight earned a worldwide box office of $1,004,558,444, and a domestic box office of $533,345,358. While it has been surpassed at the worldwide BO by such films as The Dark Knight Rises, Captain America: Civil War, Iron Man 3, Avengers: Age of Ultron, and Marvel’s The Avengers, its domestic BO is second only to The Avengers. It is the sixth highest grossing movie of all time in the United States. It was also the first superhero film to break over $1 billion dollars at the box office without the appeal of a shared cinematic universe and without 3D.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=superhero.htm

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

The Dark Knight sits at a RottenTomatoes score of 94%, with 324 total reviews and an average score of 8.6/10. It is currently the highest rated superhero film on that website. It also sits at a MetaCritic score of 82, based on 39 reviews. It is second only to Spider-Man 2 (83 rating, out of 41 reviews). The Dark Knight won 45 Film Critic Awards, having been nominated for 67 of them.

http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-dark-knight

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_The_Dark_Knight#Film_Critics_Awards

The Dark Knight received nominations by the Directors Guild of America, the Writers Guild of America, and the Producers Guild of America. When it was not nominated for Best Picture at the Academy Awards, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences expanded the Best Picture category to ten nominees. They said, and I quote:

“I would not be telling you the truth if I said the words ‘Dark Knight’ did not come up.” – Sidney Ganis

The film went on to receive eight Oscar nominations, winning two of them. No superhero film has received as many Oscar nominations before or since. It is arguably the first superhero film of the modern era to receive serious consideration for the top categories (Picture, Director, Screenplay) as evidenced above.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/awards?ref_=tt_awd

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/movies/25oscars.html


So we have a film that is:
-one of the highest-grossing films of all time domestically
-one of the highest-grossing films of all time worldwide
-the most critically-acclaimed superhero film of all time
-the most awarded superhero film of all time
-consistently rated as the best superhero film of all time by fans and professional outlets (I can cherry-pick Google searches too)

All of that, without the aid of the shared universe gimmick or 3D ticket prices.

Just to add to Boom's post, this happened today; Empire did a public vote for the 100 greatest movies. People voted in the thousands. TDK came in at #3 right behind The Godfather and The Empire Strikes Back.

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/godfather-tops-empire-100-greatest-movies-poll/

That's 100 greatest movies of all time, not just a greatest CBM list made by one person.

 

[The Batman]

Those votes all came from DC fanboys, Joker....fanboys who're in denial about the fact that TDK has been surpassed.

Everyone knows that The Winter Soldier and Civil War are regular picks on the "Greatest films of all time" lists/polls.

 

[Visualiza]

Just to add to Boom's post, this happened today; Empire did a public vote for the 100 greatest movies. People voted in the thousands. TDK came in at #3 right behind The Godfather and The Empire Strikes Back.

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/godfather-tops-empire-100-greatest-movies-poll/

That's 100 greatest movies of all time, not just a greatest CBM list made by one person.

Not that's it been particularly long, but the movie really has stood the test of time. I'm only expecting it's legacy to grow stronger in the coming decades, especially in light of how many pretenders/copycats came, went, and failed to recapture its magic.