Would the movie have been better without Venom?

[WalterKovacs]

Either way, I think "3" would always have been mediocre. They used the 2 best villains already.

what do you mean "3"?

 

[The Joker]

what do you mean "3"?

I think he means Spider-Man 3.

 

[Kaizer104]

Personally, Spider-Man 3 would've been better without Harry becoming New Goblin. If we didn't have the whole "Goblin interference" thing going on, there could have been more to Venom and Sandman's characters. In fact, using the symbiote changes made to Peter without using New Goblin could have actually been good incentive for a reason to become New Goblin.

Basically, think of it this way: Rather than Harry just being crazy-revenge guy, he could be portrayed moreso as a guy who "sees behind the silver lining". Basically, it's the thought process of "I know you're evil; even if nobody else wants to acknowledge it."

If Peter did evil things to Harry when Harry was just his normal self, Norman's goading would be more effective in turning Harry into the Goblin. Harry most likely read about what Spider-Man (in the black suit) did to everyone and may have confronted him about it only to have Peter give him trouble and humiliate him. Given that Harry, himself, was already upset with Peter for "killing his father", the added sight of Peter being a troublemaker and harm to the public would spike more than just revenge and a thirst for blind justice for his own wants.

As for Venom and Sandman teaming up, I think another person or people could step in and show they forgive Spider-Man for what he did. For instance, replace the bombing of Sandman with SWAT or other forces (like Firefighters or Police) trying their hand to distract him from smashing Spidey. Seriously, the public forces have pretty minor roles vs. Spider-Man. I think it's time the people be given a chance to help Spidey as he helps them. The inclusion of Marko's family trying to stop him would work out as it did in the novel, leaving Spider-Man to deal with Venom one-on-one.

I'm not saying to remove Harry completely; I'm just saying that New Goblin didn't really help the film as much as Harry by himself could have.

 

[Anwar]

I think that if they were going to do three villains, the symbiote story and Gwen Stacy they should've just gone for the 2-part movie deal, with maybe Spidey 3 being the 2 1/2 hour one and 3 being about 2 or less hours.

3 would be about Sandman and Peter getting the suit, and end with Harry becoming New Goblin and Venom's creation. Then 4 would be about wrapping up 3's loose threads and Peter dealing with the Goblin and Venom, until Venom kills Harry and then Venom gets killed in the end.

 

[Uber Venom]

what do you mean "3"?

...Spider-Man 3.

 

[omid17]

I think that if they were going to do three villains, the symbiote story and Gwen Stacy they should've just gone for the 2-part movie deal, with maybe Spidey 3 being the 2 1/2 hour one and 3 being about 2 or less hours.

3 would be about Sandman and Peter getting the suit, and end with Harry becoming New Goblin and Venom's creation. Then 4 would be about wrapping up 3's loose threads and Peter dealing with the Goblin and
Venom, until Venom kills Harry and then Venom gets killed in the end.

That would be awesome, thats seriously what raimi should of done

 

[Uber Venom]

I think when Eddie becomes Venom would be a great ending scene. The camera zooms into his mouth, credits.

 

[omid17]

I think when Eddie becomes Venom would be a great ending scene. The camera zooms into his mouth, credits.

that would of been the sickest ending

 

[OctaviusINC]

Yeah, but if they did that ending, they'd have to film SM4 quickly, b/c that ending would gurantee some crazy fanboys.

 

[Anwar]

I mean, they could film both together and release 4 soon after 3, like with the Back to the Future movies.

Problem is, Venom can't hold a movie on his own because he's just a big creepy stalker; he isn't a mastermind with big plans like Norman or Otto, though I do think Topher's Venom who was 100% evil and didn't have this "innocents" crap does match Norman for evil intensity.

So the 4th movie wouldn't be as long as the others, and I can't think of abigger plot than it just being a big fight/chase scene like the Venom episode on the cartoon was, or him just kidnapping MJ or May again which was also already done.

1 was the origin, 2 was him learning to fully accept being Spider-Man and balance his life, 3 was about the dangers of revenge and learning to forgive, what would the theme of 4 be if it's just a big fight movie? Not much drama to work with.

 

[Grievous]

if anyone should of been took out of the movie,I think it should be Sandman.

 

[Anwar]

But then you take out a big part of the theme, which is the dangers of revenge and learning to forgive. Peter also had to want revenge on someone and learn to forgive them for what they did to him.

If he just went bad after getting the symbiote, then the movie would be bashed for using the symbiote as a plot device instead of simply amplifying the dark feelings Peter was feeling.

 

[Blader5489]

The movie wouldn't have made any sense without Sandman. He's the one character that pushes Peter through his journey of revenge and forgiveness. Not to mention he was the only visually unique villain in the whole film.

 

[The Joker]

The movie wouldn't have made any sense without Sandman. He's the one character that pushes Peter through his journey of revenge and forgiveness.

Not entirely true. Peter also goes for revenge on Harry for messing up his relationship with MJ.

 

[Blader5489]

Not entirely true. Peter also goes for revenge on Harry for messing up his relationship with MJ.

But by that point, Peter had already lost himself to the suit. Wanting revenge on Uncle Ben's killer was the impetus for Peter's descent. Getting revenge on Harry, Eddie, etc. were just examples of how far Peter had gone astray.

 

[Anwar]

Right, having the suit be a plot device to give us a Dark Spidey worked in the cartoon because it was a cartoon. For a movie it would be too blatantly a plot device and they'd be slammed by critics for doing that.

 

[The Joker]

Right, having the suit be a plot device to give us a Dark Spidey worked in the cartoon because it was a cartoon.

But it was a plot device to give us Dark Spidey. Peter did things he never would have done without it. It wasn't only Sandman he hurt.

For a movie it would be too blatantly a plot device and they'd be slammed by critics for doing that.

The critics had plenty to slam the movie about as it was.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, it was a plot device in this movie, but it's not like those angry ( and almost murderous) feelings just appeared out of no where like in the cartoon, in the movie those feelings were there before the suit. In fact those feelings are what drew the suit to him that night. If he just started acting bad after getting the suit it would've been too obviously a plot device, he needed something/someone to make him that mad and Sandman was the one.

Yes, the critics are slamming the movie for overstuffing with villains, which I think could've been averted if they had just made this 3 hours and given more time to flesh out everyone a little better.

Or they could've just made this a 2-part story with there being no resolution to anything in 3 and it just ends with a Venom cliffhanger, so as to give them a whole movie to wrap all the stuff they introduced up.

 

[Grievous]

The movie wouldn't have made any sense without Sandman. He's the one character that pushes Peter through his journey of revenge and forgiveness. Not to mention he was the only visually unique villain in the whole film.

Not entirely true. Peter also goes for revenge on Harry for messing up his relationship with MJ.

the movie would of made some sense without Sandman.

 

[Blader5489]

Or they could've just made this a 2-part story with there being no resolution to anything in 3 and it just ends with a Venom cliffhanger, so as to give them a whole movie to wrap all the stuff they introduced up.

That's irresponsible and disrespectful storytelling. Plus, splitting the story in two would really kill the momentum building up throughout the film.

the movie would of made some sense without Sandman.

I already addressed that. Harry "stealing" MJ doesn't have the same effect as Marko killing Uncle Ben.

 

[Anwar]

They just overloaded the movie with too much stuff, the whole revenge and forgiveness thing could've been done with Venom and Sandman alone, with no Harry but they'd been building Harry up for awhile meaning he had to be used to some extent. And then there was the Gwen Stacy thing too, which really didn't go anywhere.

I'd have cut out the Gwen subplot and made the movie three hours long, and not have Harry become the New Goblin until a little later in the movie so they wouldn't have to do the amnesia thing to sideline him. I think that would've given the Sandman and Venom plots a bit more time to flesh them out. Then I'd have made this three hours and given Eddie the symbiote by the 2 hour or 2 hr 15 min mark so the "third act" of the symbiote story (Venom) could be played out a little more. I'd still kill him though because Venom can't hold a movie on his own.

Though maybe I'd have the Sandman forgiveness thing be before the final battle with Venom and not have him be there, and just have Venom be beating on Peter so badly Harry had to save him.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, it was a plot device in this movie, but it's not like those angry ( and almost murderous) feelings just appeared out of no where like in the cartoon, in the movie those feelings were there before the suit. In fact those feelings are what drew the suit to him that night. If he just started acting bad after getting the suit it would've been too obviously a plot device, he needed something/someone to make him that mad and Sandman was the one.

The feelings didn't just appear in the cartoon. Peter was angry because Jameson blamed him for attacking the shuttle that John was on, when in fact he saved John's life.

The Sandman connection to Peter was forced and contrived.

Yes, the critics are slamming the movie for overstuffing with villains, which I think could've been averted if they had just made this 3 hours and given more time to flesh out everyone a little better.

Possibly.

The ironic thing is that more attention was given to Harry than to the new villains, and Harry had been fleshed out over the previous two movies.

 

[The Joker]

the movie would of made some sense without Sandman.

No, Venom was the unnecessary character. He was just eye candy for the last fight sequence.

 

[omid17]

i think it took half an hour for topher playing all the venim scenes.LOL

 

[dodus]

Right, having the suit be a plot device to give us a Dark Spidey worked in the cartoon because it was a cartoon. For a movie it would be too blatantly a plot device and they'd be slammed by critics for doing that.

You keep repeating that the feelings needed to be there already or the suit would be "slammed as a plot device". I don't see why it's such a bad thing to have a "plot device", heck if that's the only criticism you can leverage at the concept then it's not a problem at all. Plot devices have their place, esp. in superhero movies, and one as interesting as the symbiote could have been successfully used to do a variety of different things. I just don't see how symbiote = Sandman killing Uncle Ben, as if there was no other way to have a movie featuring the symbiote unless Sandman was also in it and he also killed Uncle Ben.