First Avenger Would this be a good direction for Captain America?

[AnorexicBatman]

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?

 

[afrayedknot]

I'm hoping that the movie will re-introduce patriotism and morality to America. Sadly, we've lost the sense of both.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I'm hoping that the movie will re-introduce patriotism and morality to America. Sadly, we've lost the sense of both.

I hope not.

I want it to be a critique on patriotism.

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?

This is similar to what I've long felt is what they should do.

 

[Aztec]

I hope not.

I want it to be a critique on patriotism.

Agreed. Patriotism is blind loyalty. I want an intelligent, morally complex discourse on what his role means in the year 2011.

 

[TheVileOne]

OK, while I get the whole shock to the system. Was Cap's America so much better in every way?

Back in the 40's, blacks were still considered second class citizens. Schools were still separated before the civil rights movement gained headway in the 50's. We put the Japanese in internment camps during the war, plus the whole Tuskegee thing. I mean the mainstream media has become a joke, and all that, and it's different. But I mean, why then do people talk about Obama as a symbol of how far we've come as a country? It's kind of like saying Cap would be ashamed of a country that would elect a guy who is bi-racial as president.

When I interviewed David Hayter (screenwriter of X-men, X-men 2, and Watchmen; also the former voice of animated Cap) here is what he said was his take on Cap:

David Hayter: Well you know Cap is to me, he's about purity. Purity of ideology, purity of identity, purity of citizenship. He represents the best of what America has to offer, and he's a great guy. I mean I personally prefer characters that are a little more twisted like Wolverine or Batman or whatever. But Captain America to me, that's like Marvel's Superman, you know? He's just the leader, if you want clarity, if you want ideological purity he's the one to go to, so I respect him for that. But at the same time, I don't respect him *laughs lightly* because you need to break the rules every now and again.

TVO: Do you think a character like Cap could still be relevant to maybe a global audience for a big budget, live action movie that Marvel Studios is very serious about making right now?

David Hayter: Yeah, but I think that the vision -- I think that Captain America has to reflect where America is at any given time. And the vision of America right now is tarnished. And if I were involved in the movie, I would want to see the movie reflect those questions and him [Cap] questioning his own identity in that context . . . He could certainly be relevant. I would just hate to see the movie become an excuse for America over-reaching, torture, whatever. You know to have Captain America shilling for the phone companies spying on you would be pretty disgusting to me. But if its a maligned Captain America looking at himself and saying, "What have I become and how do I fix this?" . . . "How do I reconcile the negative things about my country with the positive things about my country?" That's a worthwhile movie.

 

[BestGirl]

It would be interesting if the next Captain America movie were about the limits of patriotism or some other equally deep topic, but Marvel doesn't seem to be going in that direction with their films. Spider-Man, Iron Man, and the Hulk movies were all rather light-hearted. Maybe Cap could break that streak, though.

 

[chiefchirpa]

Patriotism is a beginning to the end for the movie, especially in Int'l market. Captain America has to be about a service to Humanity, instead of blind Patriotism.

 

[The Question]

Yes, Captain America is about Patriotism (which I don't think it should be a critique of, as I don't think true patriotism is inherently blind loyalty). The film should be about American values and the American dream and all that. But it shouldn't be "The 40s were the ****, America has lost it's way." Cap's story, like the history of this country and the world, is not that black and white. Yes, there are a lot of things about the 21st century that are worse than the early 20th. But there are also a lot of better things as well. What Cap is all about is perspective. On how far we've come, as well as how much we've lost. In many ways, I see Captain America's story as a love letter to the 20th century, with all of it's triumphs and tragedies.

 

[bubbadoom]

Since the [first] Cap movie should be set entirely in the 1940's, I do not see how they could contrast that time with today; and if they do, I hope they don't get too heavy handed with it.

I do not want to see Marvel make the same mistake that Cannon Films did by bring Cap into the present in this movie [that's what the Avengers is for].

 

[aka Kal el]

Agreed. Patriotism is blind loyalty. I want an intelligent, morally complex discourse on what his role means in the year 2011.

Patriotism is NOT blind loyalty! It is believing in something greater than yourself and being willing to die for the sake of others! It is amazing how everyone forgets this until you need us to come save your sorry @#***.

 

[aka Kal el]

Yes, Captain America is about Patriotism (which I don't think it should be a critique of, as I don't think true patriotism is inherently blind loyalty). The film should be about American values and the American dream and all that. But it shouldn't be "The 40s were the ****, America has lost it's way." Cap's story, like the history of this country and the world, is not that black and white. Yes, there are a lot of things about the 21st century that are worse than the early 20th. But there are also a lot of better things as well. What Cap is all about is perspective. On how far we've come, as well as how much we've lost. In many ways, I see Captain America's story as a love letter to the 20th century, with all of it's triumphs and tragedies.

Thank you! Well said!

 

[aka Kal el]

Patriotism is NOT blind loyalty! It is believing in something greater than yourself and being willing to die for the sake of others! It is amazing how everyone forgets this until you need us to come save your sorry @#***.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Somebody once said that Clark Kent was Superman's critique of humanity. So I was wondering what if they did something similar in the upcoming movie. Captain America or Steve Rogers more so is supposed to represent everything that is good about America or an American citizen. Strong moral values, brave, steadfast and patriotic.

Now, when Rogers finds himself in modern times he would most definitely see a very different United States. What if he sees that the nation has degraded, corruption and crime are everywhere. People no longer have strong morals and are willing to run like cowards at the slightest sign of danger. No longer the shining beacon it once was.

Would you like it if the question arises that what is Captain America fighting for? The old America which no longer exists or the new America which he cannot accept as it goes against what he believes in.

I'm not saying the the movie should be bogged down by social commentary but I think it would raise it above others in terms of storytelling.
A kind of journey of sorts where in the end Cap realizes that all is not lost and there is still hope. Your opinion?

Not bad, not bad.

 

[Doctor Jones]

David Hayter could write the script actually. He sounds really passionate about it.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I think Cap should see 2010 America and at first he should be like "**** this future america! It's all corrupt and evil! 40's america was way better" and then he should gradually realize...through fighting resurrected nazi supervillains and stuff that maybe 40's america wasn't so hot either. End of act 2: doesn't want to be Captain america anymore cause america was never what he thought it was...then he takes up the mantle again for act 3 becoming what america SHOULD be...the values, etc.

also, he should fight the government.

 

[Aztec]

Patriotism is NOT blind loyalty! It is believing in something greater than yourself and being willing to die for the sake of others!

Exactly. What you just described is BLIND LOYALTY. It's "greater than you" so believe it and trust that it is good. Oh, and when we ask you to, please be willing to die for it.

I don't want to change the nature of this debate, but there is a great historian by the name of Benedict Anderson who described 20th century patriotism in the West as the replacement for organized religion. As societies became increasingly secular people still wanted a "higher power" to believe in and that became their "Imagined Community" of a nation. Your nation is infallible, always on the side of right, and more powerful than you.

 

[Wesley Dodds]

I always kinda assumed that this was going to be the direction they take the Captain America movie anyway... I think nobody is more aware of how badly this movie could go wrong than Marvel Studios themselves.

 

[jab1118]

For Cap to be unfrozen and be pissed because how much america sucks now would have him be ignorent of the past. Sure some things are worse but most things in the country have become much better. I hate the way that people act like the past was a much simpler time where everyone was good because its not true. The farther you go back the crappier things were people ***** about Guantánamo Bay but in ww2 we were rounding up japenese in internment camps. Politicians were corrupt back then to probably more because there was less oversight. And to be honest experimenting a super soldier serum on your own citizens sounds like something Hitler came up with

 

[Aztec]

And to be honest experimenting a super soldier serum on your own citizens sounds like something Hitler came up with

So true. There was a great special on the History Channel about the origins of comic book heroes. One historian said that superheroes were ironic because they were a FASCIST response to the rise of fascism. The very ideas of taking what you want by force for the "greater good" (which is what superheroes do) or creating the "perfect man" are inherently fascist. A very strange irony indeed.

 

[tamron]

I think Cap should see 2010 America and at first he should be like "**** this future america! It's all corrupt and evil! 40's america was way better" and then he should gradually realize...through fighting resurrected nazi supervillains and stuff that maybe 40's america wasn't so hot either. End of act 2: doesn't want to be Captain america anymore cause america was never what he thought it was...then he takes up the mantle again for act 3 becoming what america SHOULD be...the values, etc.

also, he should fight the government.

Cap should always fight for what America should be. In the 40's and now. What he should do is look at today's world and hear people saying how it's so much better than his time (for example people saying Obama's victory makes us "post-racial"), and think 'okay, we've made progress, but we still haven't reached the ideals America is built upon".

 

[Rich Santoro]

The real arc of Cap has to do with the overwhelming, in-your-face struggle that he faced in WWII... contrasted to the the more intricate, subtle, and complex battles that are going on today. In the 40's (and certainly for the cannon of Cap), the struggle was for freedom and democracy in a macro sense... Today, it is a struggle in a micro-sense.

We want to see him catching up on things and seeing information on Watergate, the civil rights movement, Korea, Vietnam, the 60's, the cold war, the drug war, pop culture, the new market crash, gobs of civil liberties issues today, middle east stryfe for several decades... It all reminds him of the true grandness of the struggle for Freedom. After defeating the Axis, we did not simply see Utopia... Our Allies turned on us (Russia and China), we became allies with our enemies (Japan and Germany). The Middle East and South East Asia became a new threats. We intervened in regional disputes like Afganistan, Iran-Contra, the Sandinistas, Somalia, etc... using less noble covert, para-militay means... It widens his eyes, and he realizes that there were so many issues that he did not see in the face of WWII (civil rights issues, government corruption, abuse of power, international crisis, the overall events of our past that we should not be proud of... etc). He is forced to re-learn what America is...

Now, this "re-learning" would have to begin in the Avengers... but can be expanded in CA2 and even A2.

We journey back to the founding fathers with him... We revel in the greatness that we have acheived in truly historic moments... and we stoicly embrace our failures from today and throughout our history. He looks at what has come before and where things are now... He is truly awed by all that happenned, and how much has changed... and he is inspired. And now, he wants to be the agent a change that takes us to the next level... He wants to inspire others. He wants to push us closer to the ideals on which the nation was founded... for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Cap should be a surrogate for us all.

 

[tamron]

The real arc of Cap has to do with the overwhelming, in-your-face struggle that he faced in WWII... contrasted to the the more intricate, subtle, and complex battles that are going on today. In the 40's (and certainly for the cannon of Cap), the struggle was for freedom and democracy in a macro sense... Today, it is a struggle in a micro-sense.

We want to see him catching up on things and seeing information on Watergate, the civil rights movement, Korea, Vietnam, the 60's, the cold war, the drug war, pop culture, the new market crash, gobs of civil liberties issues today, middle east stryfe for several decades... It all reminds him of the true grandness of the struggle for Freedom. After defeating the Axis, we did not simply see Utopia... Our Allies turned on us (Russia and China), we became allies with our enemies (Japan and Germany). The Middle East and South East Asia became a new threats. We intervened in regional disputes like Afganistan, Iran-Contra, the Sandinistas, Somalia, etc... using less noble covert, para-militay means... It widens his eyes, and he realizes that there were so many issues that he did not see in the face of WWII (civil rights issues, government corruption, abuse of power, international crisis, the overall events of our past that we should not be proud of... etc). He is forced to re-learn what America is...

Now, this "re-learning" would have to begin in the Avengers... but can be expanded in CA2 and even A2.

We journey back to the founding fathers with him... We revel in the greatness that we have acheived in truly historic moments... and we stoicly embrace our failures from today and throughout our history. He looks at what has come before and where things are now... He is truly awed by all that happenned, and how much has changed... and he is inspired. And now, he wants to be the agent a change that takes us to the next level... He wants to inspire others. He wants to push us closer to the ideals on which the nation was founded... for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Cap should be a surrogate for us all.

Bravo.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Cap should always fight for what America should be. In the 40's and now. What he should do is look at today's world and hear people saying how it's so much better than his time (for example people saying Obama's victory makes us "post-racial"), and think 'okay, we've made progress, but we still haven't reached the ideals America is built upon".

I'd like to give Cap some character development.

having him be right all the time is insufferably boring.

 

[Rich Santoro]

^ agreed... I would like to see him take a jouney on discovering what was, what is, and what can be, in regards to America and ideals of liberty as a whole. It can be a provocative tale of discovery and eprsonal growth.

 

[TheVileOne]

What I agree with Hayter about is Cap's purity. Cap is a character of pure moral fiber and conscious. He's above petty crap and he's an honorable man.