World X-Men and Homosexuality: The Connection

[bengan]

But my question is, if swedish gay people is good enough to adopt children and it all turned out allright. Why cant the US goverment see that and allow gaypeople to adopt children?

 

[Avalanche]

Put my question is, if swedish gay people is good enough to adopt children and it all turned out allright. Why cant the US goverment see that and allow gaypeople to adopt children?

Because the US is a very religious society, in which being gay is wrong in itself, never mind allowing for gay marriage and adoption. Sweden is probably a more liberal society, as a lot of the scandanavian societies tend to be. I believe you allow euthanasia under certain circumstances too?

 

[bengan]

Because the US is a very religious society, in which being gay is wrong in itself, never mind allowing for gay marriage and adoption. Sweden is probably a more liberal society, as a lot of the scandanavian societies tend to be. I believe you allow euthanasia under certain circumstances too?

No, that we dont do. But we have a good abortionlaw.

 

[ico]

Holy crap, I just watched that video and I have never been so raged in my life. GOD that woman is just.. awful. Just awful. I cannot believe she tries to justify her persecuting people because the Bible says so, even though the reporter clearly said out loud thatthe Bible tells her to forgive people who sin and to love them.

Frickin nutter.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to fantasizing about the final Phoenix VS Logan showdown from X3, but with me in place of Phoenix and that crazy-ass woman as Logan. And believe me. Phoenix doesn't die this time, oh no.

 

[LEX]

roughly 75% of the things i say on these boards are a joke.

she's back!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCdT9dfrb-Q

I enjoyed watching Julie Banderas taking it out on Phelps. But Shirley Phelps-Roper, what a *****. Seriously, someone kill her already. She is evil. Why is this woman still allowed on TV? What a ****ing ******.

 

[squeekness]

Maybe they allow her for the freak factor. People watch Jerry Springer not because they are intersted in the topics, but because they want to see the fights. People love to watch other people make an ass of themselves.

 

[littyx]

This whole religion and Bible talk is reminding me of a book that I recently read for my human sexuality class. It was called "Children Are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-Sex Relationships". It's an excellent book and If any of you are religious, or were religious, its a must read! My boyfriends very Christian, gay friend let me borrow it. It opens the Bible up to so many things regarding homosexuality. For instance, the word gay or homosexual is never even spoken in the Bible. And any negative story regarding a homosexual act is based on a homosexual prostitute or an act of violence. There is NO story in the bible that condemns a loving homosexual relationship.

There are even stories when Jesus met a homosexual, and never condemned him. Jesus never spoke negatively about gay people.

 

[newwaveboy87]

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to fantasizing about the final Phoenix VS Logan showdown from X3, but with me in place of Phoenix and that crazy-ass woman as Logan. And believe me. Phoenix doesn't die this time, oh no.

haha...i love ya's so!

 

[newwaveboy87]

I enjoyed watching Julie Banderas taking it out on Phelps.

I KNOW!!

 

[squeekness]

This whole religion and Bible talk is reminding me of a book that I recently read for my human sexuality class. It was called "Children Are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-Sex Relationships". It's an excellent book and If any of you are religious, or were religious, its a must read! My boyfriends very Christian, gay friend let me borrow it. It opens the Bible up to so many things regarding homosexuality. For instance, the word gay or homosexual is never even spoken in the Bible. And any negative story regarding a homosexual act is based on a homosexual prostitute or an act of violence. There is NO story in the bible that condemns a loving homosexual relationship.

There are even stories when Jesus met a homosexual, and never condemned him. Jesus never spoke negatively about gay people.

This did not happen in any Gospel I read. Are they referring to Secret Mark? Secret Mark was a rejected Gospel writen by a Gnostic. If it isn't Secret Mark, I'd love to know what Gospel it came from.

Just the same, it is true that Jesus never once specifically says anything about gay people either way, and if it was such a big issue to him, you know he would have. Everything else was in the Gospels. This is why I agree that Jesus would not condemn gay people, only sex offenders. And even then, he'd probably hustle those sex offenders off to treatment to make them better people.

 

[littyx]

Squeek, read the book I mentioned. Like I said the word gay or homosexual is never uttered in the Bible. You need to know all the true meanings and interpretations of the original language the bible was in to realize what the book makes clear. That Jesus indeed met a gay man.

 

[squeekness]

Squeek, read the book I mentioned. Like I said the word gay or homosexual is never uttered in the Bible. You need to know all the true meanings and interpretations of the original language the bible was in to realize what the book makes clear. That Jesus indeed met a gay man.

I am unfamiliar with the book you mentioned, but here's another that probably used the same sources. I wrote a short review for my bibliography on it. I have the name and author highlighted in blue because I have it on my mandatory reading list for any Chrisitian.

Helminiak, Daniel ~ What the Bible Really says about Homosexuality. (Discussion class) A most excellent look at Scripture and what can go wrong when translating from ancient texts. He says the best way to look at the issue is in context of the times the Scripture was written. What did homosexuality mean to the authors. A close examination of the Greek reveals not a blanket condemnation of homosexual behavior, but of it’s abuses (exploitation, pederest behavior, prostitution, rape, ect...). His arguments are supported by the Apologetic Letters of Justin Martyr to the Roman Court. The concerns of Leviticus reveal more of maintaining Jewish identity (vrs. Canaanites), than homosexual acts themselves. Was a good book and really made ya think. ****


He mentions Secret Mark in here which had an alternate look at Jesus' revival of Lazarus, one that could be twisted to mean that Jesus was in some way involved with Laz in a homosexual manner. Secret Mark is a heretical document and one that was never fully recovered so we don't know everything that was in it. I am however quite familiar with the four cannonical Gospels and in not one of them is there a directly stated encounter with a homosexual which makes me question your guy's source. In fact one of the most telling things is that in those four Gospels no homosexual anythings are discussed at all. It just wasn't an issue for Jesus or at least the four Gospel writers. If you still have the book, I would be interested to know where that story came from is all.

 

[commento]

But my question is, if swedish gay people is good enough to adopt children and it all turned out allright. Why cant the US goverment see that and allow gaypeople to adopt children?

I maybe wrong but "gays" are allowed to adopt here it's just maybe harder or there are just some people who are trying to ban "gays" from adopting?

My husband would be better at saying this but both of us are glad to be americans, yet here in amercia we still have many things to learn from other countries when it comes to "gays" among other issues. No offense but it seams like America is like a redneck cousin when it comes to some issues.

 

[squeekness]

The Catholic Church in America announced earlier this year that it was discontinuing funding for adoptions because the government had told them that they were legally obligated to help everyone, not just those they picked and chose. The Church's answer to that was to quit the fund entirely.

 

[newwaveboy87]

I maybe wrong but "gays" are allowed to adopt here it's just maybe harder or there are just some people who are trying to ban "gays" from adopting?

My husband would be better at saying this but both of us are glad to be americans, yet here in amercia we still have many things to learn from other countries when it comes to "gays" among other issues. No offense but it seams like America is like a redneck cousin when it comes to some issues.

it's actually illegal in some states for gays to adopt children, but not for them to be a foster family.

 

[commento]

it's actually illegal in some states for gays to adopt children, but not for them to be a foster family.

Really, Anybody have an idea how I could search on the web to see what states those are?

 

[newwaveboy87]

i know one of them is Florida for sure. some of the others are a big ? in my mind right now. Google it and find out.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I should make my presence known in this thread more...

 

[Avalanche]

In England recently there was a case concerning a gay couple who abused foster children in their care, and were both sentenced to life I think. It's the type of case that makes people wary of allowing gay men around children, which is a shame. The focus should be on the fact that these two men were bad men, not that they were gay. The judge himself felt the need to point this out.

 

[squeekness]

Yeah, because straight people never abuse their kids.... Sexuality has nothing to do with whether or not a person will abuse. I hate that a gay abuser gets mroe press than a straight one.

 

[thegameq]

The X-Men supposedly is an allegory that symbolises the struggle of minority groups in general. This includes gay people. But I don't know what minority groups the creators had in mind. They may not have been thinking specifically of gay people. There was McCarthyism in the USA - McCarthyism took place during a period of intense suspicion in the United States primarily from 1950 to 1954, when the US government was actively countering American Communist Party subversion, its leadership, and others suspected of being Communists or Communist sympathizers. During this period people from all walks of life became the subject of aggressive "witch-hunts," often based on inconclusive or questionable evidence.

And of course there was the racist events in the USA too. And the civil rights movement that led to the protests led by Martin Luther King and the passing of the Civil Rights Act in 1964. It was in 1963, the year the X-Men was first published, that Martin Luther King said: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" in a speech at the Lincoln Memorial, Washington D.C. (28 August 1963).

During the 60s there was also a rising gay rights movement in the USA that led to the Stonewall Riots of 1969.

So the X-Men was created in a time where social/political minority groups - in particular blacks, gays and Communists - were fighting for their rights in a time of persecution. Although Communists are not born different - it's a political choice - they were part of this climate of discrimination, fear and suspicion.

In the X-Men universe, the scientific term mutants is applied to those born with unusual abilities (and/or appearances) just as many people believe there is a 'gay gene', although I don't know whether there were strong scientific thoughts about a gay gene at the time the X-Men was first created.

The persecution element and the fight for rights is present in the comics in a very powerful sense, and has been reinforced by the movies. The movies contain what could be interpreted as several ideas that have particular resonance with gay people - running away from home (Rogue), the search for true identity (Wolverine), fear of what normal people might think (Storm, in her conversation with the dying Senator Kelly), fear of taking part in normal life because they may be shunned or bullied (Mystique in her conversation with Kelly on the helicopter). And Magneto's Jewish/gipsy parents being led to the gas chamber (as gay people also were). Also, Iceman's 'coming out' scene with his parents in X2 has been seen by many as having a strong gay subtext.

Bryan Singer - who is gay - was attracted to the movies by the idea of persecuted minorities. He is also Jewish and as an adopted child is also searching for his true identity -- which is why he focused on, and identified with, Wolverine in particular.

Ian McKellen was attracted to the X-Men movies by its symbolism for struggling minorities. And Singer said he would often direct McKellen with a gay reference. In an interview in Total Film magazine (issue 44, September 2000), Singer was asked how he got the actors to find their characters (they were not allowed to read the comics), and he responded: "You find tricks and ways of getting them to speak, or intellectually: 'Look, Ian, this is a society of people who want to wipe out homosexuals. What do you feel about that?' There's ways to do it."

In the same interview, Singer says: "The idea about reluctant superheroes, born the way they are, searching for acceptance in a world that hates and fears them, it's interesting. It's what every adolescent experiences at one point or another. It's what I experience every day."

Producer Lauren Schuler Donner said in the same magazine article: "Thematically there's a lot to relate to. It's about oppression. It's about prejudice, it could be the Jews in World War Two, it could be gay people."

I know this doesn't relate to the topic and I understand the reasoning, but..............

That is probably the biggest reason why so many fans had a problem with the X-films. Singer let his own ego and personal desires get in the way of making a film that for all intent and purposes should have been made to please the fans (ala SM) first and NOT make some personal statement from the director. We all know X-men is essentially a social allegory--alright, enough already--we know damnit! Stop shoving it down our throats!! We wanted an X-men movie based off of the comics fans have all grown to love and cherish for their humanity and the fantastic world they live in.

In other words: Don't use something that everyone loves and was expecting a truer version of to make your own personal statement. It's wrong and it's an insult to the fans. If Singer wanted to make a personal movie that was a social allegory he could identify with, he should have used another vehicle-preferably his own and not someone elses material.

Yes there are other factors that caused the X-films to come out the way they did, but I feel Singer's ego was clearly one of the biggest factors.

Damn!! I can't believe they messed up one of the greatest comics of all time!!!

 

[ico]

In other words: Don't use something that everyone loves and was expecting a truer version of to make your own personal statement. It's wrong and it's an insult to the fans. If Singer wanted to make a personal movie that was a social allegory he could identify with, he should have used another vehicle-preferably his own and not someone elses material.

Yes there are other factors that caused the X-films to come out the way they did, but I feel Singer's ego was clearly one of the biggest factors.

Damn!! I can't believe they messed up one of the greatest comics of all time!!!

I totally disagree. By shadowing the film alongside real-life situations that are still happening today, I feel only made it a better and stronger film. Now not only was it a comic-book movie, but it was a comic-book movie with a pretty powerful underlying message.

 

[newwaveboy87]

i'm with Lee on this one.

 

[newwaveboy87]

hmmm....this is interesting. but i'm the older brother of a girl.
hmm....then again...it doesn't say ALL gay men.

Study Links Male Gays, Birth of Older Brothers
A mother's antibodies may change with each boy, raising chances the next will be homosexual.
By Karen Kaplan, Times Staff Writer
June 27, 2006

Having one or more older brothers boosts the likelihood of a boy growing up to be gay — an effect due not to social factors, but biological events that occur in their mother's womb, according to a study published today.

In an analysis of 905 men and their siblings, Canadian psychologist Anthony Bogaert found no evidence that social interactions among family members played a role in determining whether a man was gay or straight.

The only significant factor was the number of times a mother had previously given birth to boys, according to the report in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The so-called fraternal birth order effect is small: Each older brother increases the chances by 33%. Assuming the base rate of homosexuality among men is 2%, it would take 11 older brothers to give the next son about a 50-50 chance of being gay.

But at a time when, according to one survey, 42% of Americans consider homosexuality to be a lifestyle choice, the study provides more evidence of biology's role in determining sexuality.

"People are coming to realize that biology — in a broad sense of the word — does play an important role," said neurobiologist Simon LeVay, who has documented anatomical differences in the brains of gay and straight men. He is not connected with the study.

A 2003 survey found that 30% of Americans believed sexual orientation was innate and 14% said it was determined by upbringing, besides the 42% who considered it a lifestyle choice. That survey was conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press and the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

Polls show that people who believe sexual orientation is governed by biology tend to support gay rights, whereas those who consider it a choice don't, said Dr. Jack Drescher, who chaired the American Psychiatric Assn.'s Committee on Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues for six years.

"The question of whether it's biological is playing a large role in the culture wars," said Drescher, who was not involved in the study. "Decisions about civil rights and marriage are all argued around this issue."

In a previous study, Bogaert and his colleagues estimated that about one in seven gay men in North America — roughly 1 million people — could attribute their sexual orientation to fraternal birth order.

Bogaert, a professor of community health sciences and psychology at Brock University in Ontario, said he didn't know what biological mechanism was behind the fraternal effect, which he and a colleague first identified 10 years ago.

The leading theory is that women's bodies react to male fetuses' proteins as foreign, making antibodies to fight them, Bogaert said.

Such antibodies could affect the developing fetus, and the more times a woman has carried boys, the stronger the antibody response would be.

This theory, dubbed the maternal immunization hypothesis, was originally proposed in 1985 to explain why boys are more likely than girls to develop conditions such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, autism and dyslexia.

"We thought it might be an interesting explanation for this," Bogaert said.

Scientists have not found any antibodies that may be responsible, but Michigan State University neuroscientist Marc Breedlove is trying to identify them in pregnant mice.

"We would love to identify the protein that she is targeting, or find out which brain regions are being affected," said Breedlove, who coauthored a commentary that accompanies the study. "Right now, it's the only plausible mechanism we can think of."

Scientists have found other genetic links to sexual orientation. For example, if one identical twin is gay, there is a 52% chance that the other twin — who has the same DNA — is gay, according to a 1991 report in the Archives of General Psychiatry. Among fraternal twins, who share about half their DNA, the figure drops to 22%, and for other brothers it is 9%, according to the study.

Bogaert first reported a link between sexual orientation and older brothers in a 1996 study conducted with Ray Blanchard, who runs the Clinical Sexology Program at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto. That finding has been replicated since then in other data on men in the U.S., Canada and Europe, as well as in data collected by the pioneering sex researcher Alfred Kinsey in the 1940s and 1950s.

In the new study, Bogaert's aim was to figure out whether older brothers influence the sexuality of younger ones through nature or nurture.

If the influence were due to social factors as the boys were growing up, he reasoned, then older brothers would have an impact as long as they were reared together. On the other hand, if the explanation hinged on prenatal biological factors, the physical presence of older brothers during childhood would be irrelevant.

Bogaert collected biodemographic data on gay and straight men raised in families with various combinations of older and younger brothers and sisters. Some were full siblings, some shared only a mother or a father, some were step siblings, and some siblings were adopted.

"It doesn't seem to be that having an older brother around, regardless of whether that brother is a biological brother or a nonbiological brother, seems to have an effect on a man's sexual orientation," he said. "Biological older brothers, even ones they are not reared with, seem to be increasing the likelihood of male homosexuality."

Previous studies have looked at the impact of older sisters on the chances of a girl growing up to be a lesbian, but they found no correlation. That result bolsters the maternal immunization theory, because female fetuses do not produce proteins that would be unfamiliar to pregnant women and thus prompt the production of antibodies.

 

[littyx]

Yeah newwave, I posted something similar a few months ago on this thread.

Yeah, I was just learning about this on my Sociology of Human Sexuality class. Even though I knew about it before the class. Also, for every son a couple has, that son is 33% more likely to be gay. Its true, look it up. That is one thing that scientists have studied that seems to be true every time.