Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'X-Men: Dark Phoenix' started by marvelrobbins, Jun 30, 2017.
Oh well. I guess getting the character wrong was *not* the problem then.
It wasn't, no. A powerful mutant with multiple personality disorder is a great concept, regardless of its accuracy to the comics. TLS just didn't execute it well.
Yes, it's a nice concept... if you just disregard accuracy. It's not like there aren't other characters, like Legion, who already embody this concept. Plus with the bag guys already being aliens it just looks like a missed opportunity by the guy who made the same mistake last time.
Jean displaying symptoms of multiple personality, or bipolar disorder is not inaccurate to the comics in any sense.
There are a **** ton of problems with TLS, but Famkes performance (for how little she was given) was fantastic.
I think the Ultimate comics went with schizophrenia aspect, but as far as I know the Phoenix in 616 is a separate entity.
As I'm only curious about this film for material for an X3 fan edit, I'm glad he's keeping things consistent. Maybe it's for the best that this is as removed from the comics as the first attempt was. Should Kinberg screw this up, there's still hope for another stab at it in the future.
Painting someone with mental illness as the biggest threat to the world or mutant rights is kind of a crappy thing to do (especially when that person being violently murdered or committing suicide saves the day). Better to go with the cosmic entity approach.
Don't be silly. Having a villain that is mentally unwell isn't the same thing as denigrating people with a mental illness.
So what does X3's ending say about mental illness? "We love you but it's better if you're dead." I hate that message. Not saying these themes couldn't be explored in a better written movie. Hopefully Dark Phoenix puts a bit more nuance and depth and care into Jean (and hopefully Jean doesn't die this time).
Application and intention are two different things. No one who creates something can or should account for what some people will want to read into a work of fiction. That's something you have to work on.
That just shifts responsibility away from the people who should be thinking about basic things like not making a movie that demonizes mental illness.
No. You're reading a meaning into something that isn't there. There's no accounting for the minority of people who will always interpret things through certain lenses. They will always find something to complain about whether it exists or not.
So, you're against critical thinking lol
The issue with Jean's storyline in TLS was the quality of the writing/directing, not the ideas. What makes drama interesting is the flaws inherent in everyone. A mentally unbalanced superhero could make for a great story, it's just Kinberg/Ratner didn't handle it properly.
A film tackling those themes is not a moral judgment against people with mental health issues. That kind of thinking is mind-boggling to me.
That's not what you're using. You're just making the simplistic equating mentally unstable person is the villain therefore the mentally ill are being demonised. It's the same sort of warped thinking that make people say you can't have a minority as a villain because that demonizes them.
You start accounting for that sort of nonsense then you restrict the stories creators can tell and the roles available for certain actors because of the conclusions a minority will jump too whereas the majority can see it as benign.
the problem of TLS for me was that they tried to make a movie talking about several things at the same time, and in the end could not focus on any. the fenix in that film was practically a subplot, the film speaks more of the mutant cure.
Yeah. I think that's what most would sy is the main problem. Though I think I may have taken Kinberg's interviews on how he was going to approach Phoenix right this time the wrong way as he seems to only mean that he's making it the main focus and not that he's taking a different approach with the character.
Now one thing I like about TLS
is the action, I may be wrong, however I found of all the mutant movies was one of the best in action level, I think if the film had focused only on fenix, it would have been a better result.
Critical argument: TLS perpetuates a stigma regarding mental health
Evidence from the text supporting the critical argument:
- TLS depicts Jean Grey as someone with the characteristics of Dissociative Identity Disorder (switching between personalities, not remembering her actions).
- Her disorder is the only reason she is a threat and an antagonist to the X-men (she kills Cyclops for no reason other than she is dangerous because she is not neurotypical)
- Storm and Beast (her friends) are unsympathetic and do not try to help her
- The solution is to violently kill Jean (with a smile on her face), suggesting that the death of the mentally ill person solves that person's problems and those around them.
- The solution is tragic for Logan, because he was the only one with enough violent masculinity to do it. And he cared about her romantically/sexually.
I could go further and find more examples of (usually female) characters that are mentally unstable and therefore violent because of their powers, like Scarlet Witch, Polaris, etc.
I don't give a **** what the intentions were, the evidence is in the text. The text doesn't exist in the a vacuum, and these common assumptions about mental illness inform the text intentionally or unintentionally. If you want to argue that TLS doesn't participate in this, using evidence from the text, go for it. It's called a debate. Your viewpoint is that it doesn't matter because it wasn't the intention.
You can tell me how you perceive the film until you're blue in the face. You already said you don't care what the intentions are so you already threw the "debate" as far as I'm concerned. Like I said before you can't go down the road of restricting works of fiction because of messages that aren't even there.
So because it's fiction it doesn't matter? Fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Hollywood has made racist and sexist films for decades. Those people would obviously say they didn't intend to make racist or sexist films. Does that make their products any less so? It's their responsibility to think about the **** they're putting out in the world.
There are certainly parallels between Jean Grey and certain types of mental illness.
But just because there's a character who is shown as being dangerous in part because she's mentally ill...that does not equate to the filmmakers demonizing the affliction of mental illness in general. The film makes no statements about mental illness in general, just as the film makes no definitive statements about "being different".
The film focuses on ONE particular instance involving a woman who has another personality entirely AND destructive superpowers; it does not seek to paint all mentally ill people with the same brush at any point.
A negative portrayal of a concept is not in any true sense a statement that this is the only interpretation of said concept.
You say her friends don't try to help her, and that is true with Storm, however Xavier and Logan all try to help her during the course of the film. Even Magneto tries, though he has ulterior motives for mutantkind. She is not the villain merely because she is mentally ill...she is a villain because she uses her powers to harm others, including those who have tried to help her. The film does not present Jean as only unstable or evil, either. It shows us, at several points in the film, Jean either fighting for control or controlling her destructive impulses. And there are those who try to help her, just as there are those who try to use her. It's a lot more multifaceted than just "demonizing" the issue itself.
Additionally, you cannot simply separate the reflection of real life mental illness from the science fiction/fantasy movie's portrayal of someone with an evil alternate personality and unstable superpowers. Mentally ill people do not tend to make others evaporate because they get upset. They can certainly lash out and hurt others in the process, but so can literally anyone, at any time.
Yeah, for the most part. It is just fiction and you're giving it too much responsibility and yourself too little.
Secondly, it matters even less if it's not there in the first place. You're not going to convince me that they have a message that is anti-mental disability. You already threw in the towel on their intentions and I've already articulated why catering to people who seem to think perception is king, anyone's perception, would end up hurting themselves and likely others creatively.
Having a villain be mentally ill or black or female etc doesn't equate to being anti any of those things. Obviously there will be films out there that do demonise, but I think you really have picked a bad example with TLS. How is Hollywood supposed to seriously approach storytelling if your standards are so over the top as no minorities, women or disabled people as villains?
Edit: Just saw The Guard's post. He makes some good points that I hadn't.
Fiction absolutely matters. It produces and is produced by cultural norms. Scrutinizing popular texts tells us how society feels about certain things. The fact that mentally ill villains are a reoccurring trope tells us that mental illness viewed negatively. Again, TLS does not exist in a vacuum and it participates in this, intentionally or not.
Also, you don't know the intentions of the writers/director of X3 anymore than I do. You don't have access to their brains back then right now. But it doesn't matter. What we have is the text in front of us. If you don't think EVIDENCE matters, then there is no point to this conversation.
I also find it funny and telling that you act like I have impossibly high standards. Jean in TLS is a villain because she has a mental illness. That is different than a villain with mental illness. And where did I say no minorities couldn't be villains? Magneto is a jewish and he is a wonderful villain.
But in a world where mentally ill villains is a trope, why do we need any more?
Films in this genre can use fantasy and sci fi elements to comment on real world problems and issues in an entertaining and action-oriented way (c'mon, we're in an X-men forum!). Jean only uses her powers in that way because she is mentally ill. She would not have killed Scott if she was not mentally ill. Evaporating those close to her is a metaphor for the destructive way mental illness can force someone to act, lashing out at loved ones for no reason. I'm not saying there isn't a potentially good story here that can go into the nuances of mental illness, but X3 did a terrible Job.
I don't find anything multifaceted about X3 other than its sloppiness and laziness (is this another case of BvS critics not understanding what a multifaceted movie that was?). Xavier tries to help her but we don't really know how. Wolverine tries to help her in the woods, but Jean doesn't even have a voice (representative of the rest of this movie). If X3 bothered to include another character that isn't neurotypical and not a villain, or if the movie bothered exploring Jean's side of things, it wouldn't have been the problem it was.
And yeah, if a movie has an all white cast and the only character of colour was the depthless villain, that IS a problem. A similar problem TLS has with mental illness.