Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix Skepticism Thread

[BeholdMe]

Then no need to keep bringing in the lack of the OC as a reason for the movies not doing well so that's making it that you are saying thats all that matters when you pout. It was quality and yes they did play a part but its not be all end all. If Apocalypse was done in the vein of DOFP even without the main cast it would've been taken differently, it just wasnt handled right and some characters faded to the background in place of others it was a mess.

 

[def28]

I wouldn't say the cast doesn't matter at all, but quality is also obviously important. Look at The Wolverine and Logan. Both feature the same lead, as well as appearances by original cast members, and yet The Wolverine is the lowest grossing X-Men film, while Logan went on to make almost $100 million more than it in the United States alone. Why? Because Logan looked damn good, and, more importantly, it was. If Dark Phoenix can do something similar, I have no doubt it will perform better at the box office than Apocalypse. Unfortunately, I don't know if Simon Kinberg is the right man for the job. That's the biggest question mark, not the cast.

I agree for the most part, quality is what matters the most.But there are a few more things that I think play into this comparison which make it quite different. Jackman and Wolverine were and still are clearly looked at as the star/lead through the series as a whole and could bring in huge numbers with X3 and even the leaked and horribly reviewed XMOW. The Wolverine took a hit because quality dropped for too many films. After DOFP and The Wolverine Jackman had audiences back on track. On top of it Logan looked different/fresh, was a known last role and had the good reviews.

The First Class crew has never brought the big audiences on their own so it's a tough call if the same could happen, plus they deal with far more franchise fatigue. The series is old now even with the new tril and Apocalypse knocked it way back. This film needs something fresh and new like Logan. But also a lead like Logan. Mystique, Prof X and Mags just can't hit that high with audiences and have never proved to. They need a clear lead and stand out superhero. This should be Scott, Jean and Ororo but they still look like supporting roles and have nowhere near the presence of Jackman. It's a very different situation.

They need to choose the correct X-Men to focus on and how to show their potential and development in a major way. If Phoenix can be good and just do that for even Jean then the success will start to come. But it's gonna be a climb.

 

[GuestStar2004]

But also a lead like Logan. Mystique, Prof X and Mags just can't hit that high with audiences and have never proved to. They need a clear lead and stand out superhero. This should be Scott, Jean and Ororo but they still look like supporting roles and have nowhere near the presence of Jackman. It's a very different situation.

That claim is fairly untested though.

You say about the presence of jackman but the closest to that would probably be Michael fassbender and thats more down to the unpredictable anti-hero nature which was what made Magneto stand out the most in FC.

Wolverine is popular because of his gritty personallity which is something that i don't know whether scott,jean and storm could compete with, especially if you go way too moral superheroes with all 3 of them.

Although i think around the time of The Wolverine is when fatigue for him started to set in and its surprising how very little of Logan was marketed as Wolverine.

 

[def28]

That claim is fairly untested though.

X-Men need Cyclops, Jean and Storm to be characters who are pushed to be leads if they want to see success with those characters. So audiences can see them as important. They have an appeal that's not being used.

They don't need to literally be Wolverine. Or be in a film that is identical like Logan. They need to be be fully fleshed out, interesting, fresh and developed characters that can support their own IP. Not waiting in the background. Mags, Prof X and Mystique won't be bringing in Wolverine numbers or appeal.

 

[samsnee]

Yeah lets see for the first time how a X-Men team film perform at the box office after a bad predecessor, without a glorified Ot cast cameo and with an obvious franchise fatigue. And unlike First Class, this is probably going to be a stinker which is another nail.

Kinberg directing, doing the Phoenix storyline again (which Kinbgerg was involved with the first time), and Jennifer Lawrence returning are already three strikes against it.

 

[Frankeh]

Mags, Prof X and Mystique won't be bringing in Wolverine numbers or appeal.

I agree with this.

 

[X-Maniac]

That claim is fairly untested though.

You say about the presence of jackman but the closest to that would probably be Michael fassbender and thats more down to the unpredictable anti-hero nature which was what made Magneto stand out the most in FC.

Wolverine is popular because of his gritty personallity which is something that i don't know whether scott,jean and storm could compete with, especially if you go way too moral superheroes with all 3 of them.

Wonder Woman says hello. She wasn't portrayed as some gritty anti-hero.

If Cyclops, Storm and others not called Raven, Erik or Charles had fully fleshed out personalities with their own troubles, conflicts, etc, they could be at the forefront. But they haven't cast people capable of leading the cast, they are clearly supporting roles at best, so they never had any intention of having Cyclops, Storm or even Jean at the front of the cast.

This continued pushing of Raven, Erik and Xavier is tired now. Raven is so bland and lifeless she has lost all the edginess and bite of Mystique. Erik's flip-flopping loyalties are done to death, and Xavier is too saintly and non-action...

On top of that, McAvoy and Fassbender - great though they are - are not really leading men, and J-Law acts so bored, her character is so bland and has such crap material to work with that she is not fit to lead the franchise either.

Maybe they should have introduced Gambit in this next film, had Sinister as the villain and built up to Dark Phoenix in the subsequent movie.

 

[psylockolussus]

The First Class crew has never brought the big audiences on their own.

They never will.

 

[Mad Ones]

If Cyclops, Storm and others not called Raven, Erik or Charles had fully fleshed out personalities with their own troubles, conflicts, etc, they could be at the forefront. But they haven't cast people capable of leading the cast, they are clearly supporting roles at best, so they never had any intention of having Cyclops, Storm or even Jean at the front of the cast.

No one really knew that Jlaw would be a leading actress like she is today when she was cast in First Class, and I really do think Fox was banking on the same thing happening with the younger cast in Apocalypse. Tye Sheridan has had roles in highly critically acclaimed movies (like JLaw in Winter's Bone) and Steven Spielberg sees him as a lead actor since he cast him in Ready Player One. Sophie Turner has a huge role in the biggest television series of all time, so she's an experienced actress who's profile is rising too.

They weren't written as leads in Apocalypse because they weren't supposed to be. But you'd think naming this movie Dark Phoenix means that they intend to give at least Jean lead actress status.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I can't see why jean wouldn't get lead status, but i do think there should a realistic expectation behind it as no one should go nuts if she isn't on screen every second of every minute.

 

[X-Maniac]

No one really knew that Jlaw would be a leading actress like she is today when she was cast in First Class, and I really do think Fox was banking on the same thing happening with the younger cast in Apocalypse. Tye Sheridan has had roles in highly critically acclaimed movies (like JLaw in Winter's Bone) and Steven Spielberg sees him as a lead actor since he cast him in Ready Player One. Sophie Turner has a huge role in the biggest television series of all time, so she's an experienced actress who's profile is rising too.

They weren't written as leads in Apocalypse because they weren't supposed to be.

Well, let's hope Tye and Sophie get some good material to work with. They can hardly manage that for J-Law, there's no bite to her portrayal and performance at all.

I notice you didn't mention Alexandra Shipp. Is she doomed to be VFX prop?

But you'd think naming this movie Dark Phoenix means that they intend to give at least Jean lead actress status.

I doubt it, to be honest. Dark Phoenix will be at the heart of the plot, in motivating other characters and driving everything forward, but i can't see Sophie leading the film in any way.

 

[Kreem Pi]

You can still have a movie named after a certain character while giving another character more or equally prominent screen time. Harvey Dent was of equal import to Batman in a movie called the Dark Knight. Charlize Theron was of equal import to Max in a movie called Mad Max.

I am sure Fox will find a way to make Jennifer Lawrence, at the very least, a co-lead to Jean.

 

[BeholdMe]

Well, let's hope Tye and Sophie get some good material to work with. They can hardly manage that for J-Law, there's no bite to her portrayal and performance at all.

I notice you didn't mention Alexandra Shipp. Is she doomed to be VFX prop?




I doubt it, to be honest. Dark Phoenix will be at the heart of the plot, in motivating other characters and driving everything forward, but i can't see Sophie leading the film in any way.

This happens alot when people mention the movies, they are just dropping the ball with the character and people forget her. They never gave her that presence she possesses in the comics and she is lacking in personality she is usually there for special effect nothing added to the character though she has so many layers if they explore it. If handled the right way I could see Storm standing out in the franchise, if we had people on board who care more about certain characters.(If she was depicted as say for instance BP is being depicted) she is royalty and she carries herself as a queen well in the comics, but she is also vulnerable and multifaceted who can get down and dirty hand to hand, skilled with different weapons she doesnt just need powers.

 

[Mad Ones]

I notice you didn't mention Alexandra Shipp. Is she doomed to be VFX prop?

Knowing this franchise, I wouldn't be surprised unfortunately. That being said, I, and everyone I've spoken with about the movie, liked Shipp's performance and want to see a lot more from her. I think she has the acting capacity for large role, but not the marketability that Fox cares about unfortunately. Kinberg did write Storm's largest role in X3, and I want to think he cares more about Storm than Singer did.

I doubt it, to be honest. Dark Phoenix will be at the heart of the plot, in motivating other characters and driving everything forward, but i can't see Sophie leading the film in any way.

Do you see Sophie having a larger or smaller role than Famke in X3?

 

[Lip]

I think it's sad that Fox seems to be so determined to make a Gambit solo movie (a movie that basically nobody wants or care), but nothing at all about Storm, one of the biggest Marvel super heroines.

Although I truly hope that Woder Woman change this sexist industry and opens the door for other movies with female leads, it seems more likely that X-23 will the one Fox will be investing, which is not bad.

But damn, it seems like Storm will never get that shining leading role that she deserves so much. And I hate FOX and this creative team for that.

It's been 18 years. 18 ****ing years. =(

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

They never will.

Nobody knows the future

 

[marvelrobbins]

I think it's sad that Fox seems to be so determined to make a Gambit solo movie (a movie that basically nobody wants or care), but nothing at all about Storm, one of the biggest Marvel super heroines.

Although I truly hope that Woder Woman change this sexist industry and opens the door for other movies with female leads, it seems more likely that X-23 will the one Fox will be investing, which is not bad.

But damn, it seems like Storm will never get that shining leading role that she deserves so much. And I hate FOX and this creative team for that.

It's been 18 years. 18 ****ing years. =(

gambit has the stories with thieves and assassins guilds.

many scream fox should make bunch of solo films but most of characters story are with the x-men.

wonder woman is far different case.she should have had her own films years
ago.and wonder woman ad tons of stories which doesn't involve justice league.

reminder this is film called dark phoenix.i am more concerned about roles of jean and cyclops.

 

[Lip]

gambit has the stories with thieves and assassins guilds.

He has. But I don't think anyone is crazy or asking to see that in his own movie.

Storm has a fascinating origin story too. She had her solo serie. She has the Murlocks. Anyway, if they want, they can make it.

reminder this is film called dark phoenix.i am more concerned about roles of jean and cyclops.

This movie is called X-Men: Dark Phoenix and I'm concerned about the role of a certain beloved and iconic character that never had a shining substantial role in 18 years. A certain character that shows up in cool scenes in the trailers but end up having five lines in the movie and nothing else. A certain character only used for power display, bait the fans, and to pretend Fox cares about diversity.

 

[X-Maniac]

Knowing this franchise, I wouldn't be surprised unfortunately. That being said, I, and everyone I've spoken with about the movie, liked Shipp's performance and want to see a lot more from her. I think she has the acting capacity for large role, but not the marketability that Fox cares about unfortunately. Kinberg did write Storm's largest role in X3, and I want to think he cares more about Storm than Singer did.

I don't any of us expect Storm to have a big role at the forefront, but just more personality/character. A believable character.

Kinberg did suddenly give Storm a large role in X3 but it felt a bit forced so we don't want that again either.

I feel like Storm is understood by the filmmakers. Giving her some dialogue and not allowing it to be cut would be a start.

Do you see Sophie having a larger or smaller role than Famke in X3?

Larger, I would hope, but the natural worry is that Magneto and Raven will take away some Phoenix screentime/development.

Jean's role in X3 (in terms of development and screentime) was okay until she went off with Magneto and ended up standing around silently for much of the final scenes.

Magneto ended up hovering around for much of the final scenes of XM:A so this does seem to be a Kinberg script flaw: not knowing what to do with a character so having them be inactive and uninvolved.

Hopefully that won't happen in Dark Phoenix.

 

[Frankeh]

Kinberg did suddenly give Storm a large role in X3 but it felt a bit forced so we don't want that again either.

She had a bigger role but still zero development. She was apparently angry that mutants were still hiding at the start of the movie but it is pretty much meaningless as it is never brought up again.

 

[BeholdMe]

I think it's sad that Fox seems to be so determined to make a Gambit solo movie (a movie that basically nobody wants or care), but nothing at all about Storm, one of the biggest Marvel super heroines.

Although I truly hope that Woder Woman change this sexist industry and opens the door for other movies with female leads, it seems more likely that X-23 will the one Fox will be investing, which is not bad.

But damn, it seems like Storm will never get that shining leading role that she deserves so much. And I hate FOX and this creative team for that.

It's been 18 years. 18 ****ing years. =(

I agree its past time they give her the proper due and stop shafting her. Its just no excuses anymore.

gambit has the stories with thieves and assassins guilds.

many scream fox should make bunch of solo films but most of characters story are with the x-men.

wonder woman is far different case.she should have had her own films years
ago.and wonder woman ad tons of stories which doesn't involve justice league.

reminder this is film called dark phoenix.i am more concerned about roles of jean and cyclops.

Storm has a rich origin story as well. so im failing to see what your saying. Gambit is in limbo right now no one is clamoring to see that story. Storm is one of Marvel top iconic female superheroines but sadly she doesnt get the proper respect she deserves. What does the film being titled Dark Phoenix have to do with Storm not getting a proper role, nothing at all. The movie will have to involve more than just Jean and Scott, Ororo is a a great friend of her as well. Those that think like you and Singer are whom the property should stay away from are you scared of utilizing diverse characters. There is more than enough room to properly utilize Jean of course,Scott and Ororo none of them have to shortchanged and the characterization is needed, she got nothing in Apocalypse and it was so much promise to do so much than they did. Its not just about Jean and Scott.

 

[psylockolussus]

Nobody knows the future

After First Class and Apocalypse underperformed. Sure.

 

[henzINNIT]

She had a bigger role but still zero development. She was apparently angry that mutants were still hiding at the start of the movie but it is pretty much meaningless as it is never brought up again.

Yup. Storm didn't have a bigger role at all in X3. She got more screen time, but she doesn't do anything at all. Halle Berry was right to fight for a bigger role imo, her mistake was accepting this as an improvement. It honestly seems like her role in this was written as shallow and boring as possible out of spite.

I'm in the right place to say this: Storm is going to be wasted again in Dark Phoenix. Considering how badly under-written Storm was in Apocalypse, where she was a major villain and got an origin story (sort of), I can't see her getting any more material this time around. Rooting for a lot more character at least which should be do-able because Shipp can't help but be charming in the role.

Do you see Sophie having a larger or smaller role than Famke in X3?

It surely will. The film will be likely be longer, and Phoenix will be the dominant story this time around. That said, I wouldn't be shocked if it wasn't much more than TLS. Considering the size of the cast, there's going to be a lot of "what do we do about Jean?" scenes between all the other characters.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Hopefully Black Panthers success makes FOX give Storm a minimal bump up in X8. So from nothing to a lil something more. Most we can hope for.

 

[Frankeh]

Considering the size of the cast, there's going to be a lot of "what do we do about Jean?" scenes between all the other characters.

That would be an improvement over TLS, as in that movie no1curred about Jean other than Logan and Xavier.