Comics X-Men: Last Man Standing (Round 3)

[Exploding Boy]

I say we just end this thread and start the next round.

 

[Optic Rage]

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Uncanny X-Men 270. In that MARVELOUS issue, the delightful Ms Munroe not only defeated the X-Men's Resident Redhead, Jean Grey, she ALSO DEFEATED HAVOK!!! So Ororo wins, Havok looses.

*dances victory dance*

So by your logic that must mean Sauron is more powerfull then any of the x-men.

Weak.

 

[Exploding Boy]

And if she's stupid enough to try and catch Beast who is like a full grown Gorilla than she deserves to be knocked out. And by your words it's not the first time she's attempted such a stupid maneuver. You don't try and catch things which are bigger and heavier than you even if you are a preachy pompous self believing goddess.

No Storm controls elements...meteorlogical phenomena. Not nature in general or else we'd see her controlling animals, plants, the earth, etc.

And why couldnt she use her self-proclaimed "wind shields" to protect her? I mean they can protect her form the Alex-bomb but not a gorilla?

 

[Valechan]

So by your logic that must mean Sauron is more powerfull then any of the x-men.

Weak.

No, my logic is she beat Havok, which was the point of the discussion.

 

[HandOfFate]

Intheknow101

1) Transferred her conciousness into the body of the White Queen

Emma did the same thing with Bobby

2) Attacked Juggernaut through his magical helmet

Psylocke did the same thing

3) Lifted the equivalent of THOUSANDS of tons

When? Because I have an issue where she could barely hold up a building

4) flew through hyperspace

I remember her flying through space but I don’t remember her calling it hyperspace. I could be wrong seeing that I haven’t read that issue of X-Men unlimited in while.

5) telekinetically blocked the gravational pull, heat, and energy of a white star

Not really, she withstood the powers of Binary whose powers where in fluctuation at the time, not a white star.

6) Effected Magneto through his helmet.

So has Prof. X, Psylocke and Shadow King

7) Rearranged molecules and molecular control

What issue?

8) Stopped a heart

This is not that big of a feat seeing that she is a telekinetic.

9) Literally destroyed Fitzroy's crystalline armor which resisted Storm's hurricane without even a scratch

This is two different kinds of attack.

10) Turned off nerve endings

Again, she is a telekinetic

11) Held back millions upon millions of microscopic nanites

Telekinetic force wall

12) is capable of concussive force blasts knocking someone hundreds of miles

Prof. X did one better and knocked The Unstoppable Juggernaut from Canada to New York

13) blocked the attack of a Guardian of the M'kranh, these were the guys that knocked out Gladiator with ease

IIRC, she wasn’t doing that well against them. Let me look in my old issue of X-Man

14) Tracked an electronic brain

Now see that impressive.

 

[Optic Rage]

So if i create a new Storm Vs Sauron thread will you vote for Sauron?

 

[El Bastardo]

I'll repost this for the heck of it.

Uncanny 270. I used the uncannyxmen.net synopsis. Storm uses wind to blow one of Boom-Boom's timebombs to the dressed-up-like-a-Genoshan-magistrate Havok, which knocked him out.

Once again. Yeah. Look, everyone! Storm beat up Havok!

 

[Valechan]

She defeated him, that's the point.

 

[Exploding Boy]

Oh poo!


Anyway can we start the next round?

 

[Valechan]

Take that, thread!

 

[FieryBalrog]

That's great and all that but it really doesn't prove anything. She has a connection with Cyclops, which in turns give her a connection to Apocalypse, this allowed her to serperate them.

It doesnt prove anything because you dont want it to

Jean is not the sole possessor of the Phoenix Force. There have been others throughout history who have used it powers. This is not something that originated with Jean, the Phoenix Force was here before the dawn of time, Jean was not.

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60&page=2

Obviously the Phoenix Force has been around since creation. But the Phoenix is the Phoenix Force made conscious through an avatar. That avatar is Jean. In Classic X-men 43 Death tells her it is hers by right to wield like Excalibur and that it will pass to her children also by birthright. In New X-men 150-154 her blood- her genes- are used by Sublime Beast to give himself a measure of the Phoenix's powers. In Endsong, she is stated to be one with the Force. So, you aren't taking into account the full story.

Well first of all, Quentin did control it. IIRC, he brought one of the Cuckoo back from the dead.

Did you actually read the story, or are you just guessing? Because thats not what happens at all.

Emma is a skilled psi but not an high powered one, Xavier on the other hand is a powerful psi and has tapped into the Phoenix Force.

When.

She manhandled the Phoenix Force with the power of the Phoenix Force.

So wait. The Phoenix Force, according to you, is something entirely separate from Jean with no special connection to her. So when it leaves her, she's just regular Jean. So in the story, when the Force leaves her and wanders around with Emma, how does she still have the power of the Phoenix Force unless the Force is hers (and not Emmas, or Xaviers, or Quentins) to command? Try not to contradict yourself next time.

 

[HandOfFate]

You have your story skewed. The force of creation/life/passion was there since the dawn of time, but Phoenix as we know it came from Jean merging with that force. Death even states that she thought it was a figment of her imagination and she wasn't far off. That it was a concept.

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60&page=2

Xavier has never tapped into the phoenix force in continuity. If he did or was in any way connected to being an omega or the force, he would'nt have been afraid of burning up if he ventured too far into JEAN's mind.

Yeah, will you should have told him that when he was part of the Starjammers calling himself Bald Phoenix.

Also Quetin didn't bring back the Cuckoo. It was the splintered part of Jean that brought it back for him. It was the sole reason he sought her out.

Where was the spilnter part of the Phoenix Force located?

Ummm in the panel right after it says "How did you do that WITHOUT ME? WITHOUT MY POWER?" So clearly Jean was using her own power. And if that doesn't work for you it's latered revealed that they are one and the same anyways so it would make sense for Jean to be able to do that since her power is hers regardless of how it is split up.

That right at that moment Jean is connected to the Phoenix Force.

 

[Intheknow101]

Intheknow101

1) Transferred her conciousness into the body of the White Queen

Emma did the same thing with Bobby

2) Attacked Juggernaut through his magical helmet

Psylocke did the same thing

3) Lifted the equivalent of THOUSANDS of tons

When? Because I have an issue where she could barely hold up a building

4) flew through hyperspace

I remember her flying through space but I don’t remember her calling it hyperspace. I could be wrong seeing that I haven’t read that issue of X-Men unlimited in while.

5) telekinetically blocked the gravational pull, heat, and energy of a white star

Not really, she withstood the powers of Binary whose powers where in fluctuation at the time, not a white star.

6) Effected Magneto through his helmet.

So has Prof. X, Psylocke and Shadow King

7) Rearranged molecules and molecular control

What issue?

8) Stopped a heart

This is not that big of a feat seeing that she is a telekinetic.

9) Literally destroyed Fitzroy's crystalline armor which resisted Storm's hurricane without even a scratch

This is two different kinds of attack.

10) Turned off nerve endings

Again, she is a telekinetic

11) Held back millions upon millions of microscopic nanites

Telekinetic force wall

12) is capable of concussive force blasts knocking someone hundreds of miles

Prof. X did one better and knocked The Unstoppable Juggernaut from Canada to New York

13) blocked the attack of a Guardian of the M'kranh, these were the guys that knocked out Gladiator with ease

IIRC, she wasn’t doing that well against them. Let me look in my old issue of X-Man

14) Tracked an electronic brain

Now see that impressive.

1) Emma only did it afte a Shiar power surge. If she was capable of doing that at any time she would have done it originally to any of the Hellions to save herself. It's just the type of person Emma was. Jean did this instinctively and effortlessly.

2) Psylocke did the same thing to a very weakend Juggernaut that just got his butt handed to him by Onslaught and knocked half way cross country. In fact that's the reason why Betsy's attacked succeeded. Jean did it to a fully powered Juggernaut.

3) X-Factor 25. The thing she was holding up was "thousands of tons." Sure she strained, but thousands of tons is no small feat. And she continued to do despite the strain until Archangel split it in half with her wings.

4) They called it hyperspace. Which means she was flying pretty damn fast. Faster than Storm can fly for sure.

5) No she was by a white star in that issue if I remember correctly and dealt with Binary while she was at it.

6) Psylocke once again only did it when Fabian Cortez boosted her powers. Don't recall Xavier or Shadowking doing it with such ease and finesse as Jean.

7) UXM 356 or UXM 357. She rearranged the molecules of her clothes to the phoenix costume and it shocked everyone. Also she accessed Cable's tk via her telepathy(because she didn't have tk) and rearranged not only their clothes but somehow changed them so even electronic detectors couldn't tell they were mutants. Also when she was barely concious she moved the oxygen molecules around Cassandra so fast that it caused a massive explosion that blew apart her armor.

8) Not all telekinetics can do this though.

9) His armor was indestructable. She destroyed it. That's takes an incredible amount of power.

10) She actually did this one telepathically.

11) No she was holding back each individual one. She even said that she can feel each one struggling against her tk. But not surprising since she can manipulate molecules.

12) Except that wasn't Professor X. Did u not read the story? Onslaught had powers and abilities that neither Xavier or Magneto have. Because you know telepathy can't knock someone physically. That was probably Magneto's powers at work.

13) She blocked the punch, which is an incredible amount of force.


Even back in the 60's she was mentioned as having unlimited mental powers. It's what makes her progression so interesting because it didn't just happen over night. It was a steady growth process that leads to where she is at today and that growth and power is backed up by her omega status.

 

[Intheknow101]

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60&page=2



Yeah, will you should have told him that when he was part of the Starjammers calling himself Bald Phoenix.



Where was the spilnter part of the Phoenix Force located?



That right at that moment Jean is connected to the Phoenix Force.

UncannyX-men.net has their bias too. In fact several of them don't like Jean as Phoenix. I'm using what is stated in the actual ISSUE and showing panels, not a synopsis or a fan made bio. They haven't even updated it with all the Endsong stuff or just gleaned over it.

He can call himself Crippled Bald Phoenix or Rogaine Phoenix and it still doesn't mean he's "The Phoenix". Baron Zemo even went by the name Phoenix before.

The splinter part was burning out Emma at the time.

How is she connected to the force/splinter part or whatever if according to the very issue she didn't reabsorb that part until many panels later. Unless of course Jean is always Jean and always Phoenix...hey just like these issues state!! wow, what a coincidence.

 

[Valechan]

Even back in the 60's she was mentioned as having unlimited mental powers. It's what makes her progression so interesting because it didn't just happen over night. It was a steady growth process that leads to where she is at today and that growth and power is backed up by her omega status

Yes, she needed unlimited mental powers to carry all those books around, because that's the only thing she ever did on those issues.

Leave them be HandofHate, the Jean fans will never acknowledge the truth, that Jean and the PHoenix Force are two separate things. They're just pissed cause she is dead and there are no plans to bring her back. Poor poor deluded people who worship dead characters...

 

[FieryBalrog]

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60&page=2



Yeah, will you should have told him that when he was part of the Starjammers calling himself Bald Phoenix.



Where was the spilnter part of the Phoenix Force located?

With Emma.

That right at that moment Jean is connected to the Phoenix Force.

Uh, no. Thats precisely the opposite of what happens in the story. Phoenix Force resurrects Jean, they merge. Jean reasserts control, gets Logan to kill her, jumps into ice. Phoenix Force leaves. Emma offers herself in the hopes of controlling it. Force possesses Emma because she loves Scott. Quentin arrives and breaks the egg which Beast built to contain Phoenix-Emma. Emma can't handle the power and Phoenix starts going crazy. Scott breaks the ice open. Jean rises from the ice, knocks out Phoenix Emma (after Storm failed, by the way) and seizes the Force from Emma. Unless you are admitting that Jean and the Force are the same being, which was the point of Endsong, there is no way to pretend Jean was holding on the Force when it quite clearly leaves the ice, possesses Emma and goes crazy.

I highly doubt you've actually read the story since you don't appear to know much about it, for example who actually resurrected Sophie or what happened to Jean.

 

[Intheknow101]

Yes, she needed unlimited mental powers to carry all those books around, because that's the only thing she ever did on those issues.

Leave them be HandofHate, the Jean fans will never acknowledge the truth, that Jean and the PHoenix Force are two separate things. They're just pissed cause she is dead and there are no plans to bring her back. Poor poor deluded people who worship dead characters...

Someone sounds awfully bitter because they've been proven wrong again. The issues show it, but if you'd rather read a summary or twist things to fit your own Storm is queen fallacy as opposed to what is stated, then feel free. Leave you be, unless you want to see more of Morrison's issues, Claremont's issues, and Endong which totally blow your argument out of the water!

We all know you only dislike Jean because she challenges Storm.

 

[Exploding Boy]

Just because someone has had the Phoenix doesent make them "The Phoenix" I mean Rachel and Nathan had it, maybe Nate. The Phoenix is Jean's. If it strays and goes around to other people it always goes back to her. And she is always connected to it.

And Hand of Fate, tell us what color blood Phoenix has? Im curious if you know.

 

[Valechan]

Someone sounds awfully bitter because they've been proven wrong again. The issues show it, but if you'd rather read a summary or twist things to fit your own Storm is queen fallacy as opposed to what is stated, then feel free. Leave you be!

We all know you only dislike Jean because she challenges Storm.

I haven't been proved wrong at all. Ororo can defeat Havok, and she has in the past. Period. And Ororo will be a proper Queen on July so it's not a fallacy at all.

And, btw, take a look at who starts this discussions. I merely voted and you all jumped down my throat. I don't see any of you challenging the votes of other people who voted for Storm also.

 

[Intheknow101]

I haven't been proved wrong at all. Ororo can defeat Havok, and she has in the past. Period. And Ororo will be a proper Queen on July so it's not a fallacy at all.

And, btw, take a look at who starts this discussions. I merely voted and you all jumped down my throat. I don't see any of you challenging the votes of other people who voted for Storm also.

Maybe it's because you have a tendency to ignore anything that brings Storm down and only focus on things that bring her up. And even twist things to make it seem like Storm was a winner bar none. For example you seem to think Havok would lose to Storm when in UXM 270, he wasn't even aware of her presence and she had the help of Boom Boom.


So I guess Sauron is more powerful than Storm. He beat her @$$ in UXM 354.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Personally, I think Storm beats Havok and thats how I voted. However, the issue doesnt interest me enough to argue about it.

 

[Valechan]

And just to enlighten you all about The Phoenix Force...

Powers
The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, derived from the psyches of all living beings. In its natural state, this life-cycle is enough to sustain the Force. However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existence. The Force can wield this energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching its destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.
While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.

Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” Later, it encountered the malevolent Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the center of a still-cooling planet Earth. The Force was drawn back to Earth when it was awakened to reality by Feron, a sorcerer from an alternate Earth who had traveled with his master Necrom to a tower on Earth-616 to witness an alignment of dimensional interfaces. The Force joined with Feron, allowing itself to be shaped by his dreams into the form of a giant fiery bird and experiencing a spectrum of new sensations. At the moment of the alignment, Feron bade the Force to project the essence of the tower throughout the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously, creating an energy matrix. Necrom sought to access the matrix to allow him to compress all alternate Earths into a singularity, the energy released from which would endow him with godlike power, and to that end he tore out the portion of the Force that had bonded to Feron. In agonized confusion over the violation of its essence, the Force fled. Necrom bound the stolen Force with a portion of his own essence, and left it to incubate in a corpse he dubbed the Anti-Phoenix.

In time, the Force’s pain subsided and it discovered that it was unable to return to its natural state. Hundreds of years later, the Force learned that the universe would come under threat from manipulation of the M‘kraan Crystal - a hypercubical nexus of realities - by the mad Shi’ar Emperor D’Ken. To prevent this, the Force sought an avatar through which it could act and so returned to Earth, seeking out Feron. Instead, the Force encountered Jean Grey, a member of the heroic mutant X-Men team, whose mind the Force had touched earlier. Grey was dying from the effects of solar radiation while piloting a damaged space shuttle. The Force appeared to Grey and offered to save her. She accepted, and so the Force created an exact duplicate of her body for itself, into which it transferred a portion of her consciousness. The Force then sealed her comatose body inside a healing cocoon, and after the shuttle crashed into Jamaica Bay, near New York City, the Force emerged from the waters, calling itself Phoenix. The X-Men believed it to be the real Jean Grey, having died and returned to life with vast new powers. Phoenix and the X-Men opposed D’Ken, who exposed the universe to the tremendous gravitational forces contained within the Crystal’s core. Phoenix entered the Crystal and repaired the stasis field, thus saving the cosmos. Phoenix continued to serve as a member of the X-Men, but ultimately its human form was unable to cope with the Force’s immense power. At first, Grey’s strong moral sense kept the Force in check, but Phoenix succumbed to the psionic manipulation of Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind). Unable to fully free itself of the sinister side of its personality that Wyngarde exposed it to, and with its human consciousness ill-equipped to repress it, the Force’s primal urges overwhelmed Phoenix, causing it to become the malevolent Dark Phoenix. Due to the limitations of its physical form, Dark Phoenix hungered for more energy and transported itself to the star D’Bari, absorbing all the energy from it. As a result, the star turned supernova, annihilating one of its planets. Dark Phoenix destroyed a Shi’ar starship which had attacked it in retaliation for the D’Bari’s deaths, then returned to Earth where it was opposed by the X-Men and Professor Xavier. He reinforced Grey’s personality, allowing Phoenix to reject its cosmic power.

The Shi’ar still judged it necessary to obliterate Phoenix’s powers entirely, lest it become Dark Phoenix again. The X-Men fought the ruling in a trial by combat against members of the Shi’ar’s Imperial Guard in the Blue Area of Earth’s moon, but during the battle Phoenix reverted to Dark Phoenix. Realizing that it could never fully retain control, Phoenix acted as the real Grey would have. Before the eyes of a horrified Cyclops, it committed suicide by telekinetically triggering an energy cannon, disintegrating its mortal shell. Later reflecting on its folly, the Force sought to undo the damage it had done by returning the life-force it had taken from Grey. On its return to Earth, it sensed the astral form of the time-traveling Rachel Summers, the daughter of Earth-811's Jean Grey. After returning Grey’s missing life-force, which was instead received by Grey’s clone Madelyne Pryor, the Force followed Rachel back to the future of Earth-811. There, it revealed itself to Kate Pryde, who asked the Force to give Rachel a new lease on life. The Force agreed and took Rachel as its host, supercharging her ability to time travel and causing her to physically travel back in time to Earth-616. Rachel was unaware that she hosted the Force’s essence until she took on the codename Phoenix. The Force then bonded to her fully and ensured that Rachel could only access as much power as she could safely wield, having learned from its past mistake. Adventuring with Rachel and the British super-team Excalibur for a time, the Force ultimately encountered Necrom’s Anti-Phoenix. After a cataclysmic battle, Rachel allowed Necrom to possess the Force, gambling that its infinite power would be too much for him. Necrom’s physical form exploded, and Rachel was destroyed in the blast. The Force gathered her shattered psyche and restored her body, promising Excalibur to protect and nurture her until she fully healed. Through Rachel’s eyes, the Force was able to experience the simple beauty of existence. In space, it encountered the world-devourer Galactus, who revealed to the Force the nature of its existence. Tormented with the knowledge that its desire to explore humanity had prevented generations of life from being born, the Force fled. Rachel reentered the timestream and emerged some 2,000 years into the future of Earth-4935. There, she encountered Diamanda Nero, daughter of that era’s mutant despot Apocalypse, and, in order to defeat her, was forced to purge herself of the Force.

Free again, the Force traveled back into the past, drawn once again to Earth-616. En route, it was transported to the Ultraverse (Earth-93060) by a sentient alien starship that had crash-landed there eons ago. Buried deep within the Earth, the ship sought to reunite itself with its twin trapped within Earth’s sun, and intended to use the Force’s energy to power the recombination. Impaled on a lance of energy that linked the two ships, the Force fought back and managed to free itself, though not before the ship was able to bond them empathetically. Wounded, the Force sought out a host to protect it as it healed. Inhabiting the body of the super-strong hero Prime, the Force was opposed by the X-Men and Prime’s teammates in UltraForce. Exhausting Prime’s physical form, the Force found another host in Amber Hunt, who had previously been possessed by the ship’s essence. The heroes were able to free Hunt from the Force, after which they took the fight to the ship, severing its link to the Force. Seeking revenge, the Force attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet. The heroes were able to drive the Force into another portal, and it emerged four billion years in the past. Unleashing vast energies while transmigrating itself through time and space, the Force inadvertently (and ironically) caused the damage to the ship that forced it to crash-land to begin with.

The Force returned to Earth-616 once more and manifested itself within Jean Grey before she was seemingly killed by an electromagnetic pulse. This shattered the Force into billions of pieces. Incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room, the Force was ripped back to reality by a Shi’ar device that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell to Earth and sought out Cyclops to use his mutant optic power to heal itself. To that end, it searched for Cyclops’ love Jean and, finding her dead, resurrected her to house its power once more. Opposed by the X-Men again, the Force was lured into possessing the body of Cyclops’ new love Emma Frost before Jean was able to reassert control. The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find its other pieces.


And that's from Marvel.com...

 

[FieryBalrog]

Yup.

The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find its other pieces.

 

[Exploding Boy]

Can We Please Start The Next Round?!

 

[Valechan]

Oh! Look at that pic, Ororo has better jugs than Jean too