X-Men - Part 5

[hippie_hunter]

Not really. The O5 were never supposed to come to this timeline. All this stuff that they've experienced and learned, never should have happened and they've been here for weeks now. If the space time continuum was going to be destroyed, it would have already happened. All that's happened is that a new timeline has been created from where it diverged when they were brought to the future. These teens are not 616. They are from whatever designation Marvel will assign them

I'm pretty sure that they're the O5 from 616. The entire MU is currently going through a massive timestream cluster**** thanks to things like Wolverine busting up the timestream in Age of Ultron, the Fantastic Four currently traveling through time, and Beast grabbing the O5 in All-New X-Men. The whole point of Battle of the Atom is that the future X-Men come to the present to force the O5 back into their time because they're not supposed to be in the present and their continued presence will have disastrous consequences.

 

[blalex620]

^^^ That's Why I say they wouldn't keep teen Jean in the present and just age her. It wouldn't work well. I hope they show the effects to the timestream in other books besides GotG. I'm reading it but I'd love to see some other characters deal with the ramifications.

 

[blalex620]

yeah but if the plot of Battle of the Atom is the future X-Men saying "enough's enough, time to send them back" and our Cyclops still being all "whateva, i'll do what I want!", then Beast needs to just admit defeat and send them back.... which will be more difficult now that Angel has split up the O5 to hang out with the s&m gang in Uncanny

Well it's not even Beast's choice at the moment. The O5 are still in the present because Jean wants them to stay. Remember Beast wanted to send them back. And if you're following UXM I'm sure Angel will be going back with them when the time comes. Shoot I'd say he'll be returning to the Jean Grey school soon. That tripe to Limbo shook all of them.

 

[Havok83]

Well it's not even Beast's choice at the moment. The O5 are still in the present because Jean wants them to stay. Remember Beast wanted to send them back. And if you're following UXM I'm sure Angel will be going back with them when the time comes. Shoot I'd say he'll be returning to the Jean Grey school soon. That tripe to Limbo shook all of them.

It is Beast's fault. They let the kids vote and decide to stay and that never should have happened. He should have had Karma or the Cuckoos erase their memories of the future and then put them back in the past where they belonged

I'm pretty sure that they're the O5 from 616. The entire MU is currently going through a massive timestream cluster**** thanks to things like Wolverine busting up the timestream in Age of Ultron, the Fantastic Four currently traveling through time, and Beast grabbing the O5 in All-New X-Men. The whole point of Battle of the Atom is that the future X-Men come to the present to force the O5 back into their time because they're not supposed to be in the present and their continued presence will have disastrous consequences.

They were originally the 616 kids but that future no longer is an option for them its diverged onto a new course due to Beast's interference. Those future X-men themselves come from an alternate future and there is an infinite amount of those. Its always silly when future people come to the past to try and change it as that doesn't necessarily happen, bc new timelines tend to be created as a result. Look at Bishop as a major example.

 

[runawayboulder]

I'm pretty sure that they're the O5 from 616. The entire MU is currently going through a massive timestream cluster**** thanks to things like Wolverine busting up the timestream in Age of Ultron, the Fantastic Four currently traveling through time, and Beast grabbing the O5 in All-New X-Men. The whole point of Battle of the Atom is that the future X-Men come to the present to force the O5 back into their time because they're not supposed to be in the present and their continued presence will have disastrous consequences.

We're headed towards a line wide reboot.....I'm telling ya.

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling"

 

[blalex620]

It is Beast's fault. They let the kids vote and decide to stay and that never should have happened. He should have had Karma or the Cuckoos erase their memories of the future and then put them back in the past where they belonged
Even so I still don't think that's a reason to think the event is stupid but that's just me.

They were originally the 616 kids but that future no longer is an option for them its diverged onto a new course due to Beast's interference. Those future X-men themselves come from an alternate future and there is an infinite amount of those. Its always silly when future people come to the past to try and change it as that doesn't necessarily happen, bc new timelines tend to be created as a result. Look at Bishop as a major example.

The thing is you're saying that like it's absolutely true. It's not. It's not absolutely true that their future is going to be a divergent one. Think about what Beast said in one book recently, one must know the exact time and place when you travel in time. This means it's possible for Beast to wipe their memories and send them back to the exact point in time before he showed up which would mean the O5 past would still be 616.

 

[Havok83]

The thing is you're saying that like it's absolutely true. It's not. It's not absolutely true that their future is going to be a divergent one. Think about what Beast said in one book recently, one must know the exact time and place when you travel in time. This means it's possible for Beast to wipe their memories and send them back to the exact point in time before he showed up which would mean the O5 past would still be 616.

if thats the case then what is the point of them even being here? If they are to prevent their future from ending up as it is now, then what is the point of them going back with their memories erased of how things turn up? They will have come here and gone back with absolutely nothing accomplished. Which means the weeks or months by the time that happens spent here will have been a complete waste of time for them. No character development. No gain in skill and experience. No knowledge of whats to come to help prevent it from occuring, etc... Like I said earlier, the premise behind this book is stupid. Its an enjoyable read of course, but I dont see the point of any of this.

 

[blalex620]

if thats the case then what is the point of them even being here? If they are to prevent their future from ending up as it is now, then what is the point of them going back with their memories erased of how things turn up? They will have come here and gone back with absolutely nothing accomplished. Which means the weeks or months by the time that happens spent here will have been a complete waste of time for them. No character development. No gain in skill and experience. No knowledge of whats to come to help prevent it from occuring, etc... Like I said earlier, the premise behind this book is stupid. Its an enjoyable read of course, but I dont see the point of any of this.

That just shows that you didn't really read the first few issues. They didn't come to prevent their future from ending up like the present. They're staying to change the present and make Cyclops remember the dream. Jean wants to make the present right before going back. She wants to make an impact on the present not the past.

 

[Havok83]

That just shows that you didn't really read the first few issues. They didn't come to prevent their future from ending up like the present. They're staying to change the present and make Cyclops remember the dream. Jean wants to make the present right before going back. She wants to make an impact on the present not the past.

Yes I did read the first few issues and I know why Jean has decided to stay. It still doesnt negate my point in that they have accomplished NOTHING. I fail to see what these 5 teens being in the present is supposed to change in him. Scott never forgot the dream. He is living it and ironically going about fufilling it in a way reminiscent to how Jean herself pushed him to back in X-factor #1

 

[blalex620]

Yes I did read the first few issues and I know why Jean has decided to stay. It still doesnt negate my point in that they have accomplished NOTHING. I fail to see what these 5 teens being in the present is supposed to change in him. Scott never forgot the dream. He is living it and ironically going about fufilling it in a way reminiscent to how Jean herself pushed him to back in X-factor #1

Well just because you don't know how the story is going to pan out doesn't mean Bendis doesn't know either. All we know is Jean Grey plans to stop Cyclops and we dont exactly know how yet. Everything you've said goes off your assumption that there's no way Jean is going to change anything in the present. Bendis is writing this story so I'm sure he has a plan so as of now nothing you've really said is correct.

 

[Havok83]

Well just because you don't know how the story is going to pan out doesn't mean Bendis doesn't know either. All we know is Jean Grey plans to stop Cyclops and we dont exactly know how yet. Everything you've said goes off your assumption that there's no way Jean is going to change anything in the present. Bendis is writing this story so I'm sure he has a plan so as of now nothing you've really said is correct.

Stop Scott from doing what? What is he doing that is so damn wrong?

 

[runawayboulder]

Stop Scott from doing what? What is he doing that is so damn wrong?

Being allowed to live after AvX. They should have killed him off so they could bring him back later to fix the mess he's turned into.

 

[blalex620]

Stop Scott from doing what? What is he doing that is so damn wrong?

According to the Marvel U he's being a mutant revolutionist, which is wrong apparently. I understand that you may not feel like Scott is doing anything wrong but the way Marvel's making it go Scott is the bad guy now. I personally am rooting for Scott but that's not the story Marvel is telling. That's why I'm saying it's going to happen some how that Scott is going to be stopped from doing his revolutionist actions and turned into the Scott he was before. And as of now Jean wants to help them.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I miss Scott as being a member of the family. This revolutionary/military leader bull crap he's been doing since Messiah Complex has been the low point of his career in my opinion. He went from being my favorite X-Man (favorite character period at times) to one that I just don't give a crap about. I waited YEARS for him to step up and become the big shot. I was stoked when I saw it happen in... and THIS is the direction they take him? I'm not a fan.

 

[runawayboulder]

The revolutionist stuff was working during Dark Reign. I loved the fast one he pulled on Osborn. It proved that as effed up the Marvel U was at that point, Cyke was right up there on everyone's level.

After the Heroic Age started though, they had no clue where to go with it, which is why AvX was the perfect opportunity to hit the reset button on him a little bit. They didn't and I agree with JH here....I'm not too into it.

 

[blalex620]

I actually understand where Scott's coming from with the whole standing up for mutant rights. I mean look at the Marvel U as a whole. There's a level of fear of mutants that wasn't there before. You got police shooting unarmed mutants because their scared of them, S.H.I.E.L.D. classifying the resurgence of mutants as a problem, Red Skull hypnotizing people to kill mutants and the huge increase in Sentinel buys. It's understandable to feel like no one is going to protect mutants except mutants when cops are arresting new mutants with little to no cause for it. I just think Scott should go about it a better way. But I'm interested in seeing how they fix this problem.

 

[Havok83]

It still fits with his character now if only for the fact that they went to persecute him for the events of AvX instead of moving on. He had a cosmic entity FORCED upon him and IMO, he shouldn't be held accountable for the things that the PF made him do. People seem to ignore that and keep blaming him for murdering Xavier, when it wasn't murder. He is being treated like a villain when he is not. He has done nothing wrong since he gathered his current group. All he is doing is saving and protecting young mutants and offering them safe haven while he helps train them with their newfound abilities in addition to helping to fight for humanity. That's always been the mantra of the X-men and its one he's lived by since Xavier took him in all those years ago. The thing that's complicating this is the fact that they have to hide away bc SHIELD and the Avengers are hunting them like dogs and the other X-men are sticking their noses up at him. He's not going around hurting anyone or causing mayhem to society at large. The reaction to him offering mutants help is blown way out of proportion

 

[blalex620]

It still fits with his character now if only for the fact that they went to persecute him for the events of AvX instead of moving on. He had a cosmic entity FORCED upon him and IMO, he shouldn't be held accountable for the things that the PF made him do. People seem to ignore that and keep blaming him for murdering Xavier, when it wasn't murder. He is being treated like a villain when he is not. He has done nothing wrong since he gathered his current group. All he is doing is saving and protecting young mutants and offering them safe haven while he helps train them with their newfound abilities in addition to helping to fight for humanity. That's always been the mantra of the X-men and its one he's lived by since Xavier took him in all those years ago. The thing that's complicating this is the fact that they have to hide away bc SHIELD and the Avengers are hunting them like dogs and the other X-men are sticking their noses up at him. He's not going around hurting anyone or causing mayhem to society at large. The reaction to him offering mutants help is blown way out of proportion

Well yeah, the main reason why Scott is in hiding is because he feels he shouldn't be held accountable for what happened when he was a Phoenix. It was different when Jean became Dark Phoenix and tried to destroy the world because it was more or less kept out of the public's eye that that's what was going on. In Scott's case he broadcast to the entire world he was the Phoenix then in front of the world he created a faux utopia, tried to destroy the world when he lost control and killed Xavier. Yes, to him and to some of us he wasn't responsible for it same way Jean wasn't responsible for what she did. The only difference is Jean had to die to get rid of her sins. Cykes hasn't. Add to that the world is now entirely terrified of mutants because of Scott. So yeah while he may have been under the influence, he never really paid for what he did, at least Jean did.

But Scott's new vision is not the exact same as Xavier's. Xavier wants to live in peace with humans and protect them. Scott only cares about mutants and doesn't care as much about living in harmony with humans anymore.

I understand you, as do a lot of us, sympathize with Scott. But the Marvel U doesn't and while it sucks that mutants are being treated terribly, Scott should answer for what he did during AvX.

 

[Havok83]

And he did. He accepted full responsibility and went to jail for it. He gladly accepted his punishment and didn't fight them on that. While there, they tried to kill him. He didn't start to change his tune till he realized the prison was run by a corrupt warden who was profiting from mutant prejudice. He watched a fellow mutant murdered in front of him while the guards prevented him from saving the guy. Consequnces led directly into Uncanny and its why's offering to help mutants and protect them from those who aim to persecute them

 

[blalex620]

Okay I can give him that. I don't however, think sitting in jail for what, a few months max, makes up for almost destroying the world and killing Xavier. Like I said, Jean had to die for what she did. At least Scarlett Witch admitted she messed up and had a plan to fix it (X-Men and Avengers fault it didn't work out). Once she got her memories back she didn't try to run from what she did. Cyclops has stopped taking responsibility for what he did and started blaming it on the Phoenix now.

 

[chamber-music]

Scott took responsibility for Xavier's death all he said was that if he wasn't under the influence of the phoenix he never would of killed Xavier which is the truth and not an excuse.

I don't really see the point of Scott sitting in jail for years when he can be putting his years of experience at work helping mutants like back in the days of X-Factor. The likes of Magneto and Mystique have done just as bad if not worst things and Xavier and other mutants have at times forgiven them and worked with them.

Some people spent years complaining Scott was a boring boyscout so Marvel have turned him into an edgy mutant rights character and those same people complain about that now. It seems no matter what they do with him he people seem to hate it.

I don't like how Marvel has handled Cyclops all the time. I think part of the reason they had him kill Xavier and make him disliked is to cynically position Wolverine as the leader of the X-Men for sales and marketing reasons.

With all that said Cyclops transition to what is today is understandable. Scott has had buses of kids he was in charge of blown up in front of him, seen his fellow X-men crucified on the lawn of the school and seen mutants driven almost to the point of destruction. It wouldn't make sense if all that stuff didn't have an effect on him.

I wonder who is the most hated out of Scarlet Witch, Cyclops and Bishop?

 

[Havok83]

Okay I can give him that. I don't however, think sitting in jail for what, a few months max, makes up for almost destroying the world and killing Xavier. Like I said, Jean had to die for what she did. At least Scarlett Witch admitted she messed up and had a plan to fix it (X-Men and Avengers fault it didn't work out). Once she got her memories back she didn't try to run from what she did. Cyclops has stopped taking responsibility for what he did and started blaming it on the Phoenix now.

Wanda is the worse. She is responsible for tons of death, including her own teammates and NEVER paid for anything she did. She literally went free after the events of HoM, roaming the world for years. She wasn't killed off and she never spent an hour in prison. She's like the worse example to bring up. Of course the Avengers accepted her back and puinishment wasn't even an option with them when she resurfaced.

 

[blalex620]

Wanda is the worse. She is responsible for tons of death, including her own teammates and NEVER paid for anything she did. She literally went free after the events of HoM, roaming the world for years. She wasn't killed off and she never spent an hour in prison. She's like the worse example to bring up. Of course the Avengers accepted her back and puinishment wasn't even an option with them when she resurfaced.

Uhhh did you read Avengers: The Children's Crusade? Because it explained everything that happened to Wanda after HoM.
She actually didn't roam the world for years she was in Latveria with Doom and she had lost/repressed her memories. And Wolverine spent the whole of the story looking for her to kill her and coming close to doing it. The Avengers spent the whole of the story looking for her to lock her away for good. The X-Men wanted to take her with them and make her pay for her crimes. The only reason she was able to walk away is because Doctor Doom stole her powers, killed Cassie Lang, and admitted in front of the X-Men and Avengers to having manipulated her into going crazy. Unlike Scott, she had a plan to fix what she did. The X-Men and Avengers messed it up not her. And she offered to turn herself in. Scott broke out of jail and has been on the run while denying he killed Xavier (when you start saying I didn't kill Xavier the Phoenix did, then you're denying) while building a "mutant army." Who seems more repentant?

Like I said, I understand and semi support what Scott's doing. No one is standing up for mutant rights (sad to say it's hardly even bought up in any X book other than Uncanny) so yeah what Scott's doing is good. I just think he might be going about it in a less Xavier and more Magento type of way. It does upset me that Wolverine isn't even acknowledging that mutants are being treated like crap and getting abused by police and killed (just read Uncanny Avengers 5).

 

[Havok83]

Children's Crusade was the first and only time we saw her with Doom. She had made several appearances in the years prior to that and she wasn't locked away with him during those appearances. The characters may have considered bringing her to justice but the fact is they didnt. She may have agreed to accept responsibility and get locked but the fact is she didnt. Scott at least willingly webt to prison wven if it was only for a few months. There was a whole lot of talk in CC but at the end of the day she was able to just walk away with no form of incarceration. At the very least she deserved a trial.

 

[JewishHobbit]

It was shown in Children's Crusade that the other Wanda appearances were a robot (modified doombot if I'm not mistaken) which made Clint feel rather icky.