X-Men - Part 7

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Please, they've been assassinating Cyclops' character since the 80s. And to imply that this is anything new is kind of whitewashing history.
oh please here the answer to that. the 80 are dead let it go . it's been on every place where a fans able to write to that that they are "f'ing sick of it.

it's stale, monotonous and it's stagnate especially now that it's happening across the board with other heroes like when try do to even ones color at times or one like spidey and cap , which happening since 2013 hit. just cause it's happen for long is worst thing hear and is the reason this back lash is happening. oh it's been "happening along time" so have alot of bad things and people stood up to those too, to get rid of them as well those things aren't needed or wanted . racism is need which the point of the books and so are alot of other thing I don';tn howv long they been around it's time they were sent packing.



as to the white washing it's freaking marvel getting the wrong message.

they've been saying to their face , they are ok with the new characters of color. but they don't want the another character assassinate for it .

BTW I'm a BLACK PERSON AND i HAVE BI Racial Cousin's ON MY FATHERS SIDE. I MADE IT CLEAR MY SELF VERY clear OFTEN in ever other part of the forum. i READ x-MEN CAUSE i WAS IN VERY BAD PLACE AT ONE POINT AND THAT WAS ONE OF MY ESCAPES AS KID AND AND a TEEN.

Especially when I faced racism my self . like when a bullied nearly had my eye right out during afield trip with pitch fork point and the was teach encouraging it to a kid to do so to me. in freaking kinder garden . hell I still get pain on my right eye.

so I hope I'm not being lumped with the stupider half running around with their nonsense no one does or should listen to those fools. people just want the heroes to be acting like heroes. nothing more. the the infighting with the heroes has just taken it's tole and so has the over push to make sure ones are hated and then they put on the newer characters while we give them chance they waste time by making them lack common sense as well and people are taking notice and have scream about .


they keep saying you want send message do it with your wallet . cause when you do it the other way they don't listen and then there';s the other problem the message our sending being drowned out by other of the foolish verity and this happens. when just read the the wallet part.
 
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His post had nothing to do with racial issues. Whitewashing in the context of that post means to gloss over or ignore which is what he felt was done when Cyclop's long history of bad writing isnt taken into account
 
His post had nothing to do with racial issues. Whitewashing in the context of that post means to gloss over or ignore which is what he felt was done when Cyclop's long history of bad writing isnt taken into account

no he's talking marvel getting the message that we the fans ddon't want the characters of color. which they read via sales after larg agerry out burst whichg been seing grow for long time . it's not the case they said they liked the new characters of color.

as to cyclops the only part that has been consitant with him is that when he tries to recrut any one into the X-men he does treat them with respect that the only thing they left alone with him. everything personal life wise to the point the hitler thing was too much and they are using the replace of the young verision to do what they should have done with him along time ago and people are making noise about it . in my view cyclops isn't even apart of the white washing and from what I've seen he's far removed from it.
 
Whitewashing the way he used it, doesnt imply race. If I misunderstood Sithborg, I apologize to him and will let him explain
 
I'm more worried about the message marvel getting. their on the wrong path. the part about the puting more people of color front & center isn't the problem . and they need to under stand that. it's the the execution that the problem . and people are tire of the heroes killing each other . they just want them to be heroes and to stop having guys like war machine and black Goliath die at other heroes hands. or for other put in the worst character ever to make space for something that doesn't have to be done that way . there is room they are the one making sure there isn't any. coming up with bad ways to it .
 
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the only good was when he started fight and stop calling prof x sir any more and the second time he became the phoenix helped take down the incursions from the ultimate verse and allowed some younger newer students to be X-men on his team . the rest the hilter crap the second time cheating was crap and should have stay in the 80's.


but I don't want to dewell any further on it . if and when he get back there alot I seen other say they like to see him do on line like join another get a better perspective for the dream with out fight other heroes or those heroes acting senile as well I like to see him make council for the off shoots for humanity and to be better communication among them that' furthering the dream oh and I don't want him in another relationship after all this anymore ether. since the writer's have rehash syndrome with only controversy in mind or negative things and won't let move on normal way . yet part of the normal is what selling.

all this from some at marvel it him self people are buying spider renew your vows where that version of cyclops avoided that sh't . and they headed to other place's like other medium like freaking Japaneses manga and anime where have super heroes in genre called super powers it's self . so it isn't just me it seems. I wasn't the only one . I just did way earlier . and now marvel wants to revert back . they shouldn't. they just have change certain executions not all executions . just the ones hurting them . it just they don't realize which ones they are.

it sure as hell isn't the fact they putting other races to for front.
 
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I fail to see how Cyclops was anything like Hitler. Do you realize what Hitler had done? The comparison doesnt even make sense. Its not like Cyclops had commited genocide or thrown innocent people into concentration camps for sick pleasure.

And Cyclops has only cheated once and that was under Morrison's run. He never cheated in the 80s. He and Jean did not get together until after he had seen Madelyne die. Outside of Jean kissing him goodbye after the Mutant Massacre, they were platonic teammates that did not cross the line until after Maddie was presumed dead
 
I fail to see how Cyclops was anything like Hitler. Do you realize what Hitler had done?

oh me as black person and has jewish friends and learning it in school know what he did ? I KNOW IT IT VERY WELL ,very well.

it's not it's about me it's about how they like to push things in the MU IN STORY . which I'm see other's of the fanbase are ticked about just as well too.
The comparison doesnt even make sense. Its not like Cyclops had commited genocide or thrown innocent people into concentration camps for sick pleasure.

i BET SOME PEOPLE STILL WOUNDER WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT WARDEN

I'd say he got what he deserved though. I rather he be actually be serving a prison sentence in limbo. but I know some one will be saying other wise. as that's the wrong thing to happen.


And Cyclops has only cheated once and that was under Morrison's run. He never cheated in the 80s. He and Jean did not get together until after he had seen Madelyne die. Outside of Jean kissing him goodbye after the Mutant Massacre, they were platonic teammates that did not cross the line until after Maddie was presumed dead
not according to every other X fan and also BTw I do have the books too the problem was during maddie's time when she was married to him. it was the issue that he left the house period . I argued this same thing when I was reporter and was a mod for mutatis mutandis and then on the as poster for xcomix fan @Xfan which was cool place I met other Xfans I met the writers too i got awards


the latter Another Xfan web site that even had the writers like Chris clarmemont talk to us often. I would hear it over and over there a few would listen but the problem was leaving at all and since then he's never recovered new xmen didn't help. it was fuel and it didn't help jean did kissed him then too,. he didn't kiss her but she did and that's all that matter to people.

if he pushed jean off those people would still be mad so it wasn't a win situation . the o late 70's or as some people like to say the start of 80's
also had carol danvers force married immortus which also dark history for and the avengers cause they sort allowed it to happen. there was alot toxic crap that should be left there. but his keep rearing it's ugly head in" he's a repeat offender"

it was still a stupid plot cylops cheating and madev no sense. what was done with colossus with what ever was linked from apocalypse did. I don't see what gaunt said in search for cyclops led to him doing that stupid thing.

'so ether way the problem is the writer's turn certain things toxic too often and it hasn't helped with cyclops and two failed marriage's is enough.

if he can be good dad still fine or mange to turn stryfe a round AS ONE LIKE when ANGLE DID IN HIS FOR HIS KID on his show . but no more ifb that' all that they will ever do.


hell i'd like for havok to find his little girl . if they'd allowed that and let him raise her. they sure as hell won't let him be with lorna she's nuts now.
 
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oh me as black person and learning it in school know what he did ? I KNOW IT IT VERY WELL very well.

it's not it's about me it's about how they like to push things in the MU IN STORY . which I'm see other's of the fanbase are ticked about just as well


i BET SOME PEOPLE STILL WOUNDER WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT WARDEN
I'd say he got what he deserved though. I rather he be actually be serving a prison sentence in limbo but I know some one will be saying other wise. as that's the wrong thing to happen.
What does you being black have anything to do with Cyclops being compared to Hitler?

not according to every other X fan and also BTw I do have the books too the problem was during maddie's time when she was married to him. it was the issue that he left the house period . I argued this same thing when I was reported and was a mod for mutatis mutandis and the on the as poster for xcomix fan @Xfan which was cool place I met other Xfans I met the writers too i got awards


the latter Another Xfan web site that even had the writers like Chris clarmemont talk to us often I would hear it over and over there a few would listen but the problem was leaving at all and since then he's never recovered new xmen didn't help it was fuel and it didn't help jean did kissed him then too,. he didn't kiss her but she did and that's all that matter to people.

if he pushed jean those people would still be mad so it wasn't win situation . the or late 70'd or as some people like to say the start of 80's
also had carol davers force married immortus which also dark history for and the avengers cause they sort allowed it to happen there was alot toxic crap that should be left there but his keep rearing it's ugly head in" he's a repeat offender"

it was still a stupid plot cylop cheating and and no sense. what was done with colossus with what ever was linked from apocalypse did. I don't see what gaunt said in search for cyclops led to him doing that stupid thing.

'so so ether the problem the writer turn certain thingf toxic too often and it hasn't helped with and too failed marriage' is enough. if he can be good dad still fine or mange to turn stryfe a round AS ONE LIKE ANGLE DID IN HIS FOR HIS KID .


hell i'd like for havok to find his little girl . if they'd allowed that and let him raise her. they sure as hell won't let him be with lorna she's nuts now.

If you have the books, then you would know that Scott and Jean did not get into a relationship until they saw Madelyne die on tv in Fall of the Mutants. Go back and re-read that. I'll even help you. It occurred in X-Factor 26
 
What does you being black have anything to do with Cyclops being compared to Hitler?


oh I for got to say the kid that to get rid of my ey was kkk and so was the my kindergarden teacher before I went to another school and they were arrested and aprently they both had picture of hitler.

If you have the books, then you would know that Scott and Jean did not get into a relationship until they saw Madelyne die on tv in Fall of the Mutants. Go back and re-read that. I'll even help you. It occurred in X-Factor 26
there' no need it doesn't matter any more the point is both the writers and other's from the fan basev think this. so your worrying about the wrong brotha here. I'm saying I don't trust them when he's in a relation. h it'll always go there cause they like relation to be controversial, it'll always come back . it's tired. it one of the many things that need to end. He should just concentrate on work and may be being dad if allowed the latter
 
Whitewashing the way he used it, doesnt imply race. If I misunderstood Sithborg, I apologize to him and will let him explain

I think he is mixing up with a previous post of mine.

"Character assassination" has happened multiple times at Marvel. Cyclops in particular. Say what you want about the formation of X-factor, he still left his wife and son.
 
I think he is mixing up with a previous post of mine.

"Character assassination" has happened multiple times at Marvel. Cyclops in particular. Say what you want about the formation of X-factor, he still left his wife and son.

I knwo that and dont deny it but cheating is a different accusation and not one that he commented when he did that. He didnt leave to go have an affair. He thought Madelyne died three times. First when he found her "body" circa X-factor 12, then when he saw her "die" on tv during Fall of Mutants and finally her actual death in Inferno. He didnt get into a relationship with Jean until after the second time and at that point he was a widower (which he already thought he had been for months)
 
I wonder when they are gonna finally feature Havok, Polaris, Dazzler again in a X-Men flagship title, like as a regular. And I wonder with the success of Legixn, if they would bring back Legion soon?
 
Polaris is rumored to show up in [blackout] X-men Blue[/blackout] so there is that.
 
I think he is mixing up with a previous post of mine.

"Character assassination" has happened multiple times at Marvel. Cyclops in particular. Say what you want about the formation of X-factor, he still left his wife and son.
it has nothing to do with what you said it some thing that has been bothering me. for more year's then you'll ever know . when as I said when I was reporter and moderator AND INFO GUY from the time the site mutadis mutandis other wise mutanthigh .com was around and I used to talk to the owner of uncanny .net pete Lucifer and a guy called monolith on there and I was buddies with most of the info Xmen and spiderman and marvel general fan sites that were made back in the day and frequented this http://www.thefullwiki.org/Comixfan


As I said back in the day . I had this argument before as just poster it decade go . so I don't care for the excuse of they've been doing this for long time that excue was usedback then too and other I knew even monllith of uncanny X-men .net hated that excuse.


but I was the one saying what havok trying to tell me here . which I aleady know.

The problem is as I said it doesn't matter where I'm involved cause it's some thing that was decade ago and the only that around still is people saying clinging to that event of when he was made to leave Madelyn and all those that use this as an excuse to hate on him cause everything fall flat every where else was that and that time new X-men came happened it was just re Enforced the place like CBR, screen rant and this year it's this site


http://www.looper.com/49409/cyclops...arkably-soon-after-the-love-of-his-life-dies/

http://www.looper.com/49409/cyclops...-marvel/s/he-keeps-choosing-work-over-family/

http://www.looper.com/49409/cyclops...s/he-left-his-wife-for-her-genetic-duplicate/


as said if you really look there are certain article like this. but ther are others. there even jean grey a jerk one too oy but there's number with cyclops and I'm saying regardless of what really happened this is all that ever repeatedly said and remember where it started at. with certain posters

after I left x-men comic's for the game's industry cause most of the comic's weren't appealing to me any more cause joe q started that crap law which was new article on newsarama that all the younger heroes that were married like spiderman cyclops and dazzler & longshot were all gonna get split and it was voted against by most comic fans by what he said . and the x-men doing out of character thing like ice tell off nurse annie to get way way from him when she was trying to help treat him which was out of character for him which at the same time new X-men was doing the annoying edict I got sick of it went on to pro gaming with my buddies out side of the comic in the early 2000's try to come back but yeah that event was nothing more the kerosene
/fuel tothe fire
and I also remember they made storm get married to black panther cause of the back lash joe Q was getting when he said he didn't want any of he other marvel characters to be married with the exception of reed and sue cause the up and coming writers didn't care for it and would rather them be them constantly bed hopping and number of other things cause that's what they were into .

So it didn't surprise me when they had ta'chilla had his marriage annulled to storm . I saw it along time ago it was only for that reason. well luke cage got lucky and so did captain britan thought him and megan were in limbo for while

point is it's not really about here and now what you guys think. this is something I've felt for long time from back in the day from what I experience from my long history being poster esle where and gathering info to help people like charley x of mutant high.com AKA mutadis mutandis .
the X-men information and new and preview site

and seeing the result from back then even now yeah via propaganda now and still see some people falling for it. but I'm sorry that event new X-men didn't help him at all . so yeah I don't want see him in a relationship ever Again and it deep problem the comic industry has. and they love to rehash the negative more so then ever these days .

it's just gotten to me for obvious reasons and I would like certain bad habits to end. cause it's turned me into some what of bitter old man. and I'm only 38.



oh and this was put out recently



April 03, 2017
1491238875ridernova.jpg


Marvel Comics has recently seen a huge sales nosedive, with most comics cancelled and then relaunched every six issues.
Marvel Comics VP of Sales David Gabriel recently spoke at a retailer summit (via ICV2), where he blamed fans for "turning their noses up" at diversity and even said that fans “didn’t want female characters out there." (via ICV2).

Ms. Marvel writer G. Willow Wilson even realized this problem as she stated on her website:




This is a personal opinion, but IMO launching a legacy character by killing off or humiliating the original character sets the legacy character up for failure. Who wants a legacy if the legacy is ******?

Wilson is on-point with that one. Why kill off an iconic character just to replace them with worse versions? Why can't they just create new characters? It seems Marvel Comics has taken fans for granted and expect them to buy whatever they can release without caring about the fan base or being more creative with new characters.
well at least some one at marvel get's she;s smarter then the VP. she should be running the place. but they don't need to get ride of the good characters they have . since she knows what the real problem is over there and why this backlash is happening. she need to replace the VP like now . finally some one that actually gets it. that's the only replacement needed and keep the characters of color and please keep the women in the for front but loose the bad habits of the execution of trashing other good characters to do it. as she stated. it has to go.



Now I won't talk about this any further. cause I don't feel like dragging down this part of the forum. I just needed to explain this and there just some things I just feel have to go. and their execution year are not is that very thing as she stated up there.

on the positive side I would like to see some of the other X-men. the problem is I just don't know with the way the current day writers are with putting stuff like Lorna is crazy and nothing more to her and they make Havok have a kid, but he's not raising her and large list where dazzler involved where dropped her miscarriage story line and she was searching for long shot to tell him and they would find out it shatter star and how that came to be .


I'm not sure if it's good thing ether to see them since the current day writers are like that. except her, she got to what the real problem at marvel is that's been there even in Joe time and in the 80's.

cause they are interesting but that's when the characters are treated as human beings and smart , but they want them messed up idiotic. uncaring self involved ughhh,....

this doesn't mean I don't want to see them. I'm just being freaking cautious cause I don't trust the (well most of them. there are still some good writer's but the majority are out of touch) current day writers. it doesn't I don't want dark stores but not the way they are doing it.


As I said I don't trust them as I did when I was younger before the movies came about and did this weird turn for these characters. cause the feud with fox or other insane reasons the y have . I don't

And that's something I know shouldn't be said. but they don't help things these days. at least some one there is being honest for a change and notice's part of the real problem. again it's not what VP thinks. it's what she stated.
 
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This is why I love X-MEN you don't need stupid diversity & legacy characters etc etc.

There are Mutants from all 7 continents don't need to do any of that nonsense.


Anyways whose excited for RessurXion?

Anybody getting all the # 1's at least?
 
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I'm getting Blue, Gold, Astonishing, Weapon X, and Jean Grey.
 
This is why I love X-MEN you don't need stupid diversity & legacy characters etc etc.

There are Mutants from all 7 continents don't need to do any of that nonsense.


Anyways whose excited for RessurXion?

Anybody getting all the # 1's at least?
who's from Antarctica and Australia?

This is definitely the most promising the line has looked since maybe Regenesis
 
Originally Posted by Leo Zelinsky
Of top of dome

Savage Land Mutates & Ka-Zar etc

Slipstream, Jack-in-the-Box & Gateway etc
yeah there is slip stream but there was his older sister liFe guard too. and yes gateway who aboriginal.


Hmm ok just got this just now and after this I'm done glad to see people are looking into this and letting that Vp and those that told him off on this crap letting him have it.


and it seem it was all the infighting among the Heroes and getting rid of the former characters and more importantly the big event's all the damn wars. There's just fatigue . as I suspected said often . it was alot other things. But the race issue. I knew it.





No, Diversity Didn’t Kill Marvel’s Comic Sales
04.03.17 Charles Paul HoffmanThough it may present a tempting target, Marvel's current focus on diversity in its heroes is not the root of the current sales slump.Readmore


Over the past several years, there has been a decided shift in Marvel’s superhero line, with the on-page characters starting to look a bit more like people in the real world.


We’ve seen a dramatic increase in series starring female superheroes, as well as a less pronounced (but still significant) increase in titles starring people of color. But now there are signs the shift is over, and the pendulum might be shifting back toward the white, male superheroes of yore.

Last week, David Gabriel, Marvel’s senior vice president of sales and market, stated in an interview with ICv2.com that retailers have told Marvel, “people didn’t want any more diversity. They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales.”


Although Gabriel walked back his original statement a bit the next day, promising, “our fans and retailers are excited about these new heroes. And let me be clear, our new heroes are not going anywhere,” “diversity” is and remains a tempting target to blame for Marvel’s current sales slump. It paints a simple narrative: Marvel tried to reach out to new audiences, but the sales weren’t there. It means all Marvel has to do is shift focus back to its core superheroes and core audience, and everything will be fine.


The problem with that is simple: That narrative is just not true. As I did some digging into comic sales data, a far more complicated story took shape; sales on Marvel’s superhero line have slumped across the board since the end of “Secret Wars,” with only a single ongoing series selling more that 50,000 copies a month to specialty shops. While All-New, All-Different Marvel Now started out strong in October 2015, it quickly sputtered, with many books hemorrhaging sales, especially after DC’s Rebirth relaunch.


One of the major culprits was that the All-New, All-Different relaunch turned out not to be all that new or different, with at least 24 series continuing on post-“Secret Wars” with the same creative team, or at least the same writer. In almost every single case, those continuing series saw dramatic sales drops after their initial relaunch.


Another culprit? Between October 2015 and February 2017, Marvel launched or relaunched at least 104 ongoing superhero series, for an average of about six new #1s a month. That is an astounding number of titles. Unsurprisingly, a very large number of these series have failed to find an audience: roughly a quarter (25) were canceled with 10 or fewer issues published; at least another seven books (7 percent) launched in late-2016/early-2017 appear to be very likely to meet the same fate, even if their cancellation has not yet been formally announced.


Looking at the data, it’s difficult not to get the sense that Marvel has been throwing everything at the wall, hoping that something will stick. Unfortunately, not much has been sticking. In February 2017, Marvel published only two ongoing superhero series that sold above 40,000 single issues: “The Amazing Spider-Man” (61,953) and “The Mighty Thor” (40,175). The predecessors of both series were among Marvel’s top sellers in 2015, with their last pre-“Secret Wars” issues selling 88,338 and 86,222 copies, respectively. The remainder of Marvel’s top 10 books all sell in the 35-39,000 copy range. Prior to “Secret Wars,” Marvel’s top 10 ongoing superhero titles were all selling above 50,000 copies per month. That is a significant drop in sales, indicating a hollowing-out of Marvel’s customer base.


Just to be clear, “diversity” has very little to do with the drop in sales in Marvel’s top 10 books. Only three (“The Mighty Thor,” “Invincible Iron Man” and “Black Panther”) can be considered “diverse,” in that they star a lead character who is a woman or a person of color. The rest are series starring white male heroes or teams made up predominantly of white male heroes.

These are Marvel’s traditional A-list heroes, being written and drawn by A-list writers and artists (almost all of whom are themselves white men), and yet they are floundering.


That is not to say that these particular books are selling worse than they should be. Several, including “Invincible Iron Man,” “Doctor Strange” and “Black Panther,” sell well above the level of previous series involving the same characters, and “The Mighty Thor” continues to sell better than its predecessor, “Thor: God of Thunder,” despite its own steep post-“Secret Wars” drop.
hile Marvel has admittedly had some misses among its “diverse” titles, it has also had some genuine hits. “The Mighty Thor” remains Marvel’s No. 2=selling ongoing superhero series. “Black Panther” has been a solid hit as well, selling enough single issues to be in Marvel’s top 10, and enough trades to make the bestseller lists. “Invincible Iron Man” (starring Riri Williams) is also in the top 10, showing very little attrition from writer Brian Micahel Bendis’ pre-“Civil War II” series. “Spider-Man” is close behind, selling about 5,000 more copies than Miles Morales’ pre-“Secret Wars” series.”Spider-Gwen” and “All-New Wolverine” are also both doing well, with more than 29,000 copies sold in February for both titles. And then there’s “Ms. Marvel” and “The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl,” two series whose trades have also made the bestsellers lists.


Having dug into the data, it’s become clear that diversity is not hurting Marvel. The truth is, Marvel’s “diverse” titles actually sell decently. The problem, instead, appears to be a hollowing-out of Marvel’s traditional A-List, titles whose sales have dropped by tens of thousands of copies in the past few years. Especially painful has been the collapse of X-Men sales, which once made up Marvel’s bread and butter, though the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy lines have also seen a major declines since “Secret Wars.” Blaming “diversity” only goes so far when it is series about white men and teams of white men that have been dropping the furthest.


There are many potential explanations for why Marvel’s sales have declined since “Secret Wars” — the decision to relaunch titles that were already selling well, a weak slate of new series, reader fatigue with the seemingly unending string of events and crossovers, a desire for more escapist stories at a time when Marvel was prepping for an event about fascism, steep competition from DC’s Rebirth relaunch, poor marketing outside of the direct market, etc. — but the publisher’s current focus with “diversity” is not among them.



Now The lession's learned it seem's starting with






Comic Book Resources

3 hrs ·







Don't expect any major events from Marvel post-Secret Empire.




No Big Events After Secret Empire for ‘18 Months, At Least,’ Says Marvel

Marvel exec David Gabriel indicates that the publisher doesn't plan any major crossover events immediately after Secret Empire.Read more


















source: http://www.cbr.com/
 
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Anyways whose excited for RessurXion?

Anybody getting all the # 1's at least?
Read Prime, getting Gold and Blue, as well as Iceman when that comes out. Probably Astonishing X-Men too. Not feeling Generation X, Cable or Jean. Thinking I'll also skip Weapon X.
 
Not excited about any of these Resurrection titles. Except for Astonishing.
 
I read Gold and the issue was decent enough but ugh It was too much of a rehash and felt very dated. It felt like it was ripped directly from the 80s but does nothing to push the line or characters forwards aside from Kitty. Its too reliant on nostalgia. With that said, it was better than Extraordinary which preceded it so there's that. I'm really looking forward to Blue bc it at least looks to be going in the opposite direction and doing something different and new
 
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