Y'know, Emma has a point.

[ShadowBoxing]

Yeah she is right.

 

[Bastila]

Wow i can read it now lol, Emma does have a good point, i actully like her more now.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

all the x-men ever talk about is the genosha massacre. get over it already.

*****es.

 

[Darthphere]

Im going to take that as a joke.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

um... yeah

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Wow i can read it now lol, Emma does have a good point, i actully like her more now.

Whoa, I still dislike her. Even a broken clock is right two times a day

 

[Dread]

I fully agreed with Emma Frost in CIVIL WAR #3. Despite the fact that the X-Men have been a hero-team for quite a long time (after the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, came the X-Men), and despite the fact that they're often involved in "big epic storylines", there's a definate double standard here. Marvel Superheroes in particular have done almost nothing to help mutant/human relations, aside for allowing mutants to join the Avengers from time to time. No speaches, no pressuring of legislators, nothing. Stark is perfectly willing to build a cabal of like-minded superheroes to manipulate the media and the government because he sees the SHRA as inevitable (and if he sided against it, he'd lose everything), but no Avenger has made much effort to bother doing half that to help mutants. Capt. America could have went on a pro-mutant tour and likely had half of America agreeing with him. So could Mr. Fantastic or whatnot.

Of course, if they HAVE to team up with the X-Men for some mega-threat, like Onslaught, naturally the other heroes will drop by, but they basically go, "Nice seeing you, X-Men, now don't let the door hitcha on the way out".

Granted, to be fair, the X-Universe has provided considerable threats for the rest of the MU. Onslaught, Magneto, etc.

And the reality is that this "hypocrisy" of Marvel heroes is not an act done deliberately to claim that even Cap has apathy towards anti-mutie bigotry. This is done because Marvel usually likes to keep their "universes" seperate, and did so for long periods of time. The Spider-books operated seperately from Avengers, Avengers seperate from the Fan 4, the Fan 4 seperate from Hulk, and so on and so forth. As the X-Men became Marvel's cash-cow franchise (least until Bendis got on Avengers stuff). Aside for random guest appearences and annual crossover "events", these univeses stayed seperate. Its NOT the same as DC, where between tenures on the Teen Titans or JLA (or JSA), nearly every hero has at least met the other.

Unlike most other books, however, which are just superhero action/soap adventures, the X-Men are a concept book with a message about race relations and bigotry. The problem is that like all comics, the general plotline can only advance so far before you need to retract so it still resembles the X-Men. Its basically the dilemma of GILLIGAN'S ISLAND; if they ever escape the island, the show is over. But if they NEVER escape it, the show will inevitably ware thin. The X-Men are the same. If you solved the mutant relations issue in the MU (including having the appropriate heroes act, well, appropriately regarding injustice), then the entire purpose of the X-Men would end. Their entire hook of "protecting a world that hates and fears them" as well as "offering sanctuary and training to mutants who have nowhere else to go" would cease. With that, it would only be a drama of the X-Men defending themselves from their own isolated enemies, and running on endless inner-Mansion melodrama.

But haven't the X-Men done just that for EXTENDED periods of time many times?

The only moment of "advancement" of the mutant/human dynamic in Marvel happened during Morrison's run. I didn't read a lot of it because I didn't like how Morrison chose to write his own ideas, but he had GREAT ideas that could have been reworked with, reimagined, done better by other writers. Had Morrison been an X-Men editor, I think the whole shebang would have been better and lasted. In his run, he advanced the dynamic to something FURTHER than just "humans hate mutants and no one cares". He injected maybe 10 years of development in about 2, and that was also the problem; after decades of almost no development, that rush seemed unnatural. Plus, to use the "Joe Q approach" to agrue any point, it sold well. Morrison's X-MEN outsold what it was selling before, making it a Top 10 book most months. Of course, his last arc stumbled, and Marvel lost their nerve with it and systematically undid everything he'd done, with mixed results ("Xorneto"). In fact, the Frost/Cyclops romance is really the only thing from that run that seemed to remain (and helped no doubt by the fact that Jean Grey is currently dead again). Say what you will about this arc, but this run showcased two things:

1). X-fans are not ready for a major advancement of the fundamentals
2). Marvel is not ready for a major advancement of the fundamentals.

And so you have to keep X-Men on spin cycle (like most franchise books), their fundamental status quo in spin cycle, and keep it seperate. Of course it works out when Millar wants to have Frost get in a point, but in reality, unless Marvel seriously wanted to advance/rework the entire philosophy of the X-Universe and their status quo, keeping them and the MU seperate at most times is the best way to go, even when rationally it lacks sense. Of course, it also lacks sense to have 4 Spider-Man titles that have almost nothing to do with each other, but Marvel's the House of Ideas, after all.

 

[Fading]

Good post, just wanted to add that realistically it wouldn't always work either to get outside help for X-Men related plots. Let's face it, Dark Phoenix saga the X-Men could probably have used the help from the Avengers, F4, Spidey, fought Dark Phoenix head on and lost still. Nevertheless if other hero's got involved, and let's say Dark Pheonix rose again and Thor finished off Dark Pheonix somehow, then the emotion is gone from let's say Cyclops killing Jean knowing it's best while loving her.

This is just me, but I've always felt some of the older Marvel writers despised X-Men for some reason, other than the ones writing X-Men lol. Like when X-Men fought Doctor Doom, then an F4 writer would retcon it to make it a Doom bot as if the X-Men's struggle was against a mere shadow of Doom. Or when a villain of the X-Men like Magneto (a villain who lifted astroid M while holding 30+ X-Men still through the Iron in their blood without breaking a sweat), being just a one comic minor villain in other books.

Reason I brought that up is because the X-Men I felt besides being a great team and having a good cast to make it readable, had equally good villains. But it almost felt like some writers were like "Eww X-Men villains", and didn't want to 'tarnish' their golden characters by involving them unless it was to boost their books sales. Probably just me that feels that way lol, but I think (just IMO) that that's part of the reason more teams didn't help the X-Men, because it would be dragging the world's mightiest Avengers or The Fanstastic 4 down to a level where an X villain provides a challenge in the writers eyes.

Again probably just reading too much into it.

 

[The Batman]

when the hell are they gonna give scott some balls?

I'm sick of this guy getting trampled on by emma. I'm sick of every freaking x man getting some one liner on his ass about the fact that hes not really a leader and crap.

I'm sick of this guy never really taking his place among captain america and mr. fantastic as one of the legendary leaders of the MU.

Cyke should grow as a character. he should finally be the wise leader xavier trained him to be. IMO, it shouldnt have been emma who talking to tony in CW 3, it shouldve been scott

 

[Fading]

when the hell are they gonna give scott some balls?

I'm sick of this guy getting trampled on by emma. I'm sick of every freaking x man getting some one liner on his ass about the fact that hes not really a leader and crap.

I'm sick of this guy never really taking his place among captain america and mr. fantastic as one of the legendary leaders of the MU.

Cyke should grow as a character. he should finally be the wise leader xavier trained him to be. IMO, it shouldnt have been emma who talking to tony in CW 3, it shouldve been scott

Ya, I miss the Cyclops with balls. Sad thing is, I want Cyke to have a girl, but he seems only to have balls when he isn't being dominated by a telepathic girlfriend. Wolverine's my favorite character, but there was a time when I enjoyed Cyke backhanding Wolverine everytime Wolverine questioned him, Wolverine would shoot back up saying he'd gut him and Cyke wouldn't even turn around like it wasn't worth a response. Plus Cyke used to actually use martial arts, and rarely took crap. Anymore you wouldn't know he could move past walking, and touching his visor with his fingers, and Emma's got him pretty whipped.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

is anybody else confused at bishop's position in all this? he's pro- reg, but when they were busy stamping that big ol' M on his face wasnt he forcibly registered? i realise his reasoning is that he wants to keep mutants on the right side of the law to ensure his species survival but i still find that weak reasoning when you look at possible long-term repercussions of supporting such an act.

 

[Harlekin]

This is just me, but I've always felt some of the older Marvel writers despised X-Men for some reason, other than the ones writing X-Men lol. Like when X-Men fought Doctor Doom, then an F4 writer would retcon it to make it a Doom bot as if the X-Men's struggle was against a mere shadow of Doom. Or when a villain of the X-Men like Magneto (a villain who lifted astroid M while holding 30+ X-Men still through the Iron in their blood without breaking a sweat), being just a one comic minor villain in other books.

That's just Byrne. He did with everybody Doom faced that he didn't like.

Reason I brought that up is because the X-Men I felt besides being a great team and having a good cast to make it readable, had equally good villains. But it almost felt like some writers were like "Eww X-Men villains", and didn't want to 'tarnish' their golden characters by involving them unless it was to boost their books sales. Probably just me that feels that way lol, but I think (just IMO) that that's part of the reason more teams didn't help the X-Men, because it would be dragging the world's mightiest Avengers or The Fanstastic 4 down to a level where an X villain provides a challenge in the writers eyes.

Again probably just reading too much into it.

I think you are (no offense). Villains are hardly ever exchanged, but I wouldn't consider that in a "eww X-Men villain" kind of way. If so, one could also consider that with "eww Avengers villain" etc. It's just that certain writers tend to prefer to stay within the 'bounds' of their respective little universe.

 

[Dread]

is anybody else confused at bishop's position in all this? he's pro- reg, but when they were busy stamping that big ol' M on his face wasnt he forcibly registered? i realise his reasoning is that he wants to keep mutants on the right side of the law to ensure his species survival but i still find that weak reasoning when you look at possible long-term repercussions of supporting such an act.

Bishop's agruement, at least in CW:XM #1 (BrainWilly said that Bishop's been the MOST tolerant of Val Cooper and the ONE Squad for months now, although to be fair, aside for occasonal whining, the rest of the X-Men have been bending over backwards to mutant oppression since DECIMATION, so its been about a year) is that "my future happened because mutants had NO SAY in gov't policies to police rogue mutants, so if mutants STAY involved in this gov't, my future should be averted". Maybe he forgets the fact that there probably were "Uncle Tom" mutants in his future, too. And yes, to be fair, about half of the 198 are actual criminals (Toad, Arclight, etc), but the rest aren't, and neither ONE or the X-Men seem able to discriminate. THE 198 and a lot of the X-stuff after DECIMATION hasn't been very hot, ASTONISHING notwithstanding (it seems to operate in its own universe, because its their best seller, which is no a bad strategy).

Heck, Mark Millar essentially writing out the X-Men from the core CW story is no accident; he's stated it in interviews that he didn't want them playing a huge role (probably because of past events, like ONSLAUGHT and HOM, where they were all but the stars at times). But, naturally, Marvel wants more CW titles for sales, and the more X-books, the merrier, so we get CW:XM. Oh, well. At least Cyclops is finally willing to stand up for something, even if the issue is cloudy. And the fact that having Cyke and the X-Men balk at "causing casualties, even amung criminals" during a firefight has become so rare that you almost mistake it for a writer's flaw speaks bounds about where the X-Men have been headed lately. Granted, it was Morrison who made it "cool" for the X-Men to slaughter their enemies willy-nilly in recent times. I mean, why keep that but ignore most of the GOOD ideas? It gets frustrating.

For a while, the X-Men were knowtowing to bigots, so at worst they were enablers in the name of "staying nice". Now at least the remaining founding X-Men seem set to make a stand, and that's nice. True, Cyke has allowed Emma to "walk all over him" at times, but at least he hasn't become Tony Stark's "gimp" in exchance for nanobot armor and free rent.

 

[PhotoJones]

Now at least the remaining founding X-Men seem set to make a stand, and that's nice. True, Cyke has allowed Emma to "walk all over him" at times, but at least he hasn't become Tony Stark's "gimp" in exchance for nanobot armor and free rent.

to be fair, though, i think everyone knows that peter won't be able to take tony's crap for much longer. you can feel the tension already.

scott on the other hand seems perfectly content to be emma's b****, and has seemed so for awhile now...

 

[Dread]

to be fair, though, i think everyone knows that peter won't be able to take tony's crap for much longer. you can feel the tension already.

scott on the other hand seems perfectly content to be emma's b****, and has seemed so for awhile now...

He spent years as Grey's b**** if you want to get technical, just Grey was usually about as fascinating as a block of wood between "Phoenix" mumblings. Frost is many things, but not as boring.

 

[PhotoJones]

He spent years as Grey's b**** if you want to get technical, just Grey was usually about as fascinating as a block of wood between "Phoenix" mumblings. Frost is many things, but not as boring.

maybe it's just my interpretation of things, but i never thought scott was jean's whipping boy. xavier's maybe, but not jean's...

 

[Darthphere]

maybe it's just my interpretation of things, but i never thought scott was jean's whipping boy. xavier's maybe, but not jean's...

Me neither, but I guess you could see it that way if you wanted to.

 

[The Batman]

maybe it's just my interpretation of things, but i never thought scott was jean's whipping boy. xavier's maybe, but not jean's...

exactly, and he rebelled against xavier at times too. i never saw jean usurping scotts role repeatedly. And you never saw the other xmen claim that either

 

[PhotoJones]

exactly, and he rebelled against xavier at times too. i never saw jean usurping scotts role repeatedly. And you never saw the other xmen claim that either

which is why i'm having a hard time seeing what dread, here, is saying...

 

[Dread]

maybe it's just my interpretation of things, but i never thought scott was jean's whipping boy. xavier's maybe, but not jean's...

How many times did we have to read "Scott!" "Jean!" on the pages? Warren got a lot of flack for "PPPPAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIGGGGEEE!", but hot DAMN, hardly any couple caked on the melodrama more than Scott and Jean sometimes. Ironically, there seemed to be more genuine love there than between Reed and Sue sometimes (especially during the 90's, when Reed kept going missing and Sue became an Image Femizon).

You do have a point that unlike Jean, Emma Frost has ideas, actions, and goals that sometimes run counter to what the X-Men usually used to stand for, and Scott would sit there and nod. And it is also true that after the early 90's, Scott wasn't knowtowing to Jean, he, like the rest of the X-Men, had become Wolverine's supporting cast (something that, again, took Morrison's run to get to change). At least in CW:XM, he's telling Emma to stay at home...like a good woman. Retro, but whatever.

 

[PhotoJones]

How many times did we have to read "Scott!" "Jean!" on the pages? Warren got a lot of flack for "PPPPAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIGGGGEEE!", but hot DAMN, hardly any couple caked on the melodrama more than Scott and Jean sometimes. Ironically, there seemed to be more genuine love there than between Reed and Sue sometimes (especially during the 90's, when Reed kept going missing and Sue became an Image Femizon).

You do have a point that unlike Jean, Emma Frost has ideas, actions, and goals that sometimes run counter to what the X-Men usually used to stand for, and Scott would sit there and nod. And it is also true that after the early 90's, Scott wasn't knowtowing to Jean, he, like the rest of the X-Men, had become Wolverine's supporting cast (something that, again, took Morrison's run to get to change). At least in CW:XM, he's telling Emma to stay at home...like a good woman. Retro, but whatever.

well, sure there's always gonna be melodrama. it's a comic book for cripe's sakes.
as for scott being jean's drone...i just don't see it.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

At least in CW:XM, he's telling Emma to stay at home...like a good woman. Retro, but whatever.

oooooooooo, he went there. who's the dude? YOU the dude.

 

[LEX]

She has a great point and I wholeheartedly agree with her. This is exactly the reason why I love the character. You go tell him, girl. The telepathic encounter in New X-Men was pure brilliance.

Emma's much more fascinating than Jean, in my opinion. This will sure give Emma-haters second thoughts.

 

[Dread]

well, sure there's always gonna be melodrama. it's a comic book for cripe's sakes.
as for scott being jean's drone...i just don't see it.

Admittedly, it wasn't as pronounced because Jean wasn't a dominatrix like Emma Frost is.

I do find Frost more interesting than Jean, although I'm not just "waiting for her to go evil again", like a lot of people may seem to be (and how Joss Whedon likely sees her). She'd been a heroine for a good 12 years by now, which is longer than Morrison wrote her. GENERATION X anyone?

 

[PhotoJones]

Admittedly, it wasn't as pronounced because Jean wasn't a dominatrix like Emma Frost is.

I do find Frost more interesting than Jean, although I'm not just "waiting for her to go evil again", like a lot of people may seem to be (and how Joss Whedon likely sees her). She'd been a heroine for a good 12 years by now, which is longer than Morrison wrote her. GENERATION X anyone?

agree to disagree, i guess...

ah, generation x...those were the days. i miss that damn book.