You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 10

[Ryan]

I watched it when I was 12 and still enjoy watching Return of the Jedi today. I do find that it didn't age well, special effects wise, as the first 2 oddly enough. Seems a little too Jim Henson for my liking now. However I still love the entire Jabba beginning and Luke/Vader finale. Rises has its moments but it definitely impacted the TDKT in a way that it failed to eclipse the OT of Star Wars for me. Too bad.

 

[JackWhite]

I don't know, I think ROTJ is merely solid; at worst a passable entry. And even though TDKR has it's fair share of problems/inconsistencies, it at least has some balls.

Whenever I finish watching Empire I rarely put on Jedi after it. Whereas with TDKR; I always want to finish off the trilogy after watching TDK.

But that's just me.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Bane/Talia wanted to destroy Gotham for personal vengeance as much as to complete Ra's work. There was nothing personal about the LOS' original plot. Bruce was involved more or less by happenstance (being in the right prison at the right time); Ra's would have infiltrated and used the fear toxin to raze Gotham regardless. But Bane and Talia had a specific vendetta against Bruce that motivated every action they took.

She wanted to punish Batman for personal vengeance. But her punishment for Gotham she inherited from Ras, which is more ideological than personal. That's why she ultimately ran off and left him to Bane. Gotham was more important than vengeance on Bruce.

With Joker, the difference is in the method as I said, but the end result is still a Gotham that has destroyed itself. Joker's weapons were chaos and, ironically, Batman himself; Ra's weapons were the fear toxin and the monorail (a corruption of the symbol of Thomas Wayne's altruism by his Bruce's Bad Dad); and Bane's were militaristic strength and the fusion reactor (Bruce's attempt to emulate Thomas corrupted once again by his figurative brother).



You're right that they are very different. My point was that when boiled down their end goals are very much the same. One could call that lazy and redundant storytelling; I prefer to see it as similar scenarios examined from different angles, paralleling and contrasting depending on the villain, his motive, and his tools.

If you boil it down that much all villains have one or two goals. Again, punishing Gotham morally is very different than fear toxins or nuclear bombs. Under Ras' method Gothamites don't have a mind and ultimately are dead. Under Bane they are dead. Under Joker, they are alive. They would go about their merry ways. They would continue to live their lives. But they would always have their conscience nagging at them.

 

[Awest66]

The hero and villain(s) drive the stories and get me invested in them.

I find that to be just as true for Rises. I love both movies but between the two, I have to give Rises a slight edge for having a more consistent tone and giving the supporting players more interesting things to do.

 

[BatLobster]

I like the way Nolan put it in terms of how the series' main villains compliment one another.

"If you look at the three of [the series's villains], Ra’s Al Ghul is almost a religious figure, The Joker is the anti-religious figure, the anti-structure anarchist. And then Bane comes in as a military dictator. And military dictators can be ideologically based, they can be religiously based, or a combination thereof,"

I think while there are parallels and differences in terms of the villain's aims and philosophy, it's essentially three different forms of evil- each have their own methods and aesthetic that impact the overall tone and feel of each film.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

What’s good, fellas

 

[shauner111]

Special effects are no small part of a film. Jedi's special effects, its action scenes overall were great for the time and also still so today. RotJ and TDKR both in part attempt to be spectacle and how well, impressively, entertainingly they do so, how much fun they are in that, is a big part of the overall quality.

I also think that on the one hand it's disappointing and yet OTOH impressive that the plot and tone is pretty much between the level of ANH and TESB, backing down a bit from TESB but hardly ignoring it, instead plausibly following it but mostly in a different, admittedly lighter way. TDKR, on the other hand, very much follows up on TDK's Dent plot while pretty much ignoring its Joker plot, understandable but odd and fairly unsatisfying.

Yeah but i don't think the special effects were very good in that film, especially compared to the previous two entries. It's like they went backwards instead of forwards. Rises was about being more than just spectacle. Films attempting to only reach that entertaining sweet spot based purely on spectacle, would be blockbusters made by Michael bay or the Fast and the Furious movies. Rises tried to tell an impactful story, develop characters and not just tell a story but an emotional one at that.

I agree about tone, with RotJ.

Nah, I think it's still plenty worthy of respect as a trilogy. The first Star Wars essentially created the modern blockbuster. And similarly, the Star Wars trilogy really set the model for a big action-adventure trilogy that tells one big story/mythology. That really hadn't even been done before. Even if you aren't the biggest fan of the films, or think ROTJ sucks- you still have to acknowledge the trilogy charted a path that many franchises have followed. It set the template. Hence, worthy of respect. Not to mention the sheer impact on pop culture.

Sure, they're far from perfect as films- I love to pick at 'em myself, because there's plenty of silly things and it's fun. But as a film lover, I will vigorously defend their iconic status. John Williams' scores alone put them on another tier compared to most blockbusters being made today.

I have always argued that with TDKT, it forms a whole greater than the sum of its parts and I also think that's true for Star Wars. That's the same reason some people who find TDKR to be the weakest film, still can acknowledge that TDKT as a whole was a great achievement.

I actually agree that TDKR is a stronger movie than both ROTJ and TLJ (and I like TLJ), but I'm drawing the line at saying the original Star Wars trilogy isn't worthy of respect. I'm not going to be one of those annoying people who says "you MUST love Star Wars!" cause I get that it doesn't resonate with everybody the same and I know what it's like thinking a pop culture phenomenon is overrated (*cough* Stranger Things)...but looking at it as a film fan, they are clearly an indispensable part of cinema history, flaws and all. Hence worthy of respect, whether you like the films or not or think they're overrated.

We won't speak of the "Nooooo", because that's a 2011 Lucas edition. That ruined one of my favorite movie moments of all time.

OK, i guess you got a point about respecting OG Star Wars (RotJ included) for setting a template for trilogies to come. But taking legacy out of the question, i just don't think the movie is very good and so i don't see it as a worthy trilogy on its own, especially when comparing it to MUCH better told stories over that were made over the course of three films. I find people tend to look at the sum of the parts too much and ignore the basic question which is "is this particular film good just as a film on its own?". Rises is just a much better IMO. Better filmmaking, more emotional weight while still delivering on spectacular action. Better acting of course.

I totally agree about Stranger Things being overrated. I'm not finished season 2 (one episode to go), but it's not really doing it for me like season 1. Really enjoyed season 1, but it's also not that good.

That's why I find Return better. The hero and villain(s) drive the stories and get me invested in them. If that aspect doesn't work, it's hard to get invested behind everything else. Everything else just becomes great ideas that lack good execution, which is what I think Rises is.

Rises is also a film where the hero/villain/s drive the stories and get me invested. I was invested in Luke's journey, but there's too much distraction for me in RotJ. While characters like Han and Leia are just there on a dumb adventure and i stopped caring. Bruce's journey and emotional/physical development always gets me, and that's one of the reasons why i connect with Rises and barely feel anything with Jedi.

I'm with Denis Villeneuve on this he f'n HATES Return of the Jedi. Well maybe i don't hate it, because i didn't grow up with the franchise as much as him, but i totally get what he's saying.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

What’s good, fellas

The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series is 10 years old. It's tightly packed and still easy to love.

 

[James.B]

[YT]eFjFxgHedgM[/YT]

 

[Herofan]

Rises is also a film where the hero/villain/s drive the stories and get me invested. I was invested in Luke's journey, but there's too much distraction for me in RotJ. While characters like Han and Leia are just there on a dumb adventure and i stopped caring. Bruce's journey and emotional/physical development always gets me, and that's one of the reasons why i connect with Rises and barely feel anything with Jedi.

I think it's usually more difficult to try to make a more ensemble-film work well than a film with a clear protagonist. Han & Leia got a lot of attention in Empire, in Jedi the story kind of has to focus on the Luke/Vader relationship plus the new character of the Emperor so I think it makes sense that Han and Leia were deemphasized.

I'm with Denis Villeneuve on this he f'n HATES Return of the Jedi.

It's certainly a lot lesser than the first two but hating it seems a bit much. The only way I could see someone hating it is if they loved Empire so much that they come to think less of the original film also, which did have quite a bit of comic relief and even a little cuteness.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Tommy should be the DCEU joker

What else do they have left to lose at this point. He’d bring in a billion alone

 

[The Shape]

 

[The Joker]

[YT]eFjFxgHedgM[/YT]

ROFL. I found that more entertaining than Letoker's entire SS appearance.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

"Daddy's going to make some art, darling."

 

[Kane52630]

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

Nicolas Cage is voicing Superman in Teen Titans GO!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...achty-green-lantern-teen-titans-go/415282002/

 

[OutOfBoose]

ROFL. I found that more entertaining than Letoker's entire SS appearance.

No s***.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Letoker's presence hurts fans really, really, bad.

 

[Herofan]

Rises is also a film where the hero/villain/s drive the stories and get me invested. I was invested in Luke's journey, but there's too much distraction for me in RotJ. While characters like Han and Leia are just there on a dumb adventure and i stopped caring. Bruce's journey and emotional/physical development always gets me, and that's one of the reasons why i connect with Rises and barely feel anything with Jedi.

I think Bruce's decisions kind of drive the story but in a weird way in that he initially seems pretty out-of-character. He loses to Bane mostly because he greatly underestimated Bane, despite both Alfred and Gordon warning him not to, and overestimated his own rusty abilities. I'm not sure why he twice trusted Catwoman and in the end he comes close to but doesn't actually defeat Bane, instead Bane is defeated and Batman saved by Catwoman going against Batman's no-kill principle.

 

[Awest66]

I'm not sure why he twice trusted Catwoman

No he didn't, He had something Catwoman wanted and offered it to her in exchange for a favor, Bane just got to her first. She even said "still don't trust me".

he comes close to but doesn't actually defeat Bane,

BS. He very clearly defeats Bane at the end, He just doesn't kill him.

 

[OutOfBoose]

The Matrix and Ghost in the Shell '95 are coming to UHD in May and June respectively. The Matrix will have Dolby Atmos and Dolby Vision. The remaster is supervised by Bill Pope.

What a time to be alive for a sci-fi/cyberpunk junkie like myself.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Two movies I couldn't get invested in as much as I hoped. They are both visually fascinating.

 

[shauner111]

No he didn't, He had something Catwoman wanted and offered it to her in exchange for a favor, Bane just got to her first. She even said "still don't trust me".



BS. He very clearly defeats Bane at the end, He just doesn't kill him.

Exactly. How did he not defeat Bane?

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Ryan]

Can hardly wait until he does Bane.