Justice League ZACK SNYDER’S JUSTICE LEAGUE - RATE & REVIEW THREAD (SPOILERS!!!)

[Chip Chipperson]

Not gonna lie, that line is only a few notches below the “I’m a big fan of justice” line on the crap scale

 

[djsunyc]

So here are a few of my thoughts now that I have some time on my laptop:

• I'm ambivalent at the moment. Then again, I was ambivalent on MOS the first time I saw it and it grew on me a lot on successive viewings, just as Watchmen did, and I came to love Watchmen. BvS I really liked on first viewing.

• One of my issues is that they didn't really show how the world is still dealing with the loss of Superman. That's one of the things that Joss did that I thought worked really well. I thought the movie was missing that. And then what was needed was a followup at the end with how the world reacts to Superman being back. I don't understand how that can be left out. If this is supposed to effectively close the Superman saga, then you have to show what it means now that he is back in the world. BvS spent a lot of time in the epilogue with how the world felt about Superman's death. Now he is back, so what does that mean to people? That's a huge missed opportunity, and as such, it's hard for me to see it as a Superman trilogy now.

• This movie felt more straightforward. There doesn't seem to be much to dissect and get into. MOS and BvS brought up a lot of cool discussions but I'm not sure ZSJL does. Now, if they were to make the sequels, then that might explore some cool stuff, but this movie unto itself is pretty straightforward and doesn't have much depth, imo, at least on first viewing.

• Another thing is this movie, without the sequels focusing on Darkseid, really doesn't work on its own. This is, in effect, like having the Two Towers be the end of the LOTR story. Defeating Sarumon, which was really tough to do, having to fend off 10,000 uruk hai at Helms Deep and the Ents going to war against Isengard, all that was built up through the movie, but in the end, we also knew that Sarumon still wasn't even the big bad, that as tough as he was, the bigger threat still looms and the toughest battles are still to be faced. That's effectively what we get here. Steppenwolf was a tough battle and the whole movie builds up to this invasion, but in the end, he still is just a herald of a much larger threat. On its own, Steppenwolf as the main bad guy is a good starting point and appetizer for the main threat in the way Sarumon is for Sauron. This movie works much better knowing that it's only part 1 of a much larger threat. So if we don't get those sequels, then I'm not sure this movie holds up as well. Tihs movie mainly works as a Justice League 1 in a larger story.

• The score, while good at times, on the whole, felt underwhelming. Now, this may change on repeat viewing as its not uncommon for movie scores to connect with me on a second viewing, but as of now, I felt the score was inconsistent and felt rushed at times. Even when we did hear some good music, maybe a call back to MOS or some other music, it would end really quickly. I did like WW's music (made me think of Xena or Witcher 3) and Flash's music in a couple of scenes was great (the scene where he pushes the sword towards Diana and the time travel scene). The music in the History Lesson was really good and I wish that was used for the Justice League in the final battle. How many of us were looking forward to the League's fight against Superman with actual Junkie XL music rather than the Elfman score, even listening to youtubers rework that scene over the past few years with Zimmer/Junkie music, but I didn't find the music in that scene having much power or impact. And I didn't care for Batman's theme. I'm not sure why Junkie couldn't have used a modified version of the BvS Batman theme, so that it's still true to his journey in this movie but still has resonance of what came before. I still reserve the right to change my mind on the score after another viewing, but that's my feelings on it so far, and music scores go a long way for me.

So, this is just some of what stood out to me on the first viewing.

missing superman cant be justified in snyderverse. in mos he had one huge battle that killed thousands of people. why is he the hero there? in bvs you got another alien battle. but what happened in between where the entire world should miss him? we got a 30 sec montage of him looking at a family during a flood and catching a space ship. there was no emotional connection to people in either movie so it wasnt earned. so i dont mind them skipping it.

batman in bvs was shown having no issues kiling people yet joker is still alive? that makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[-Arya-]

Everything related to Superman/Clark’s story fell flat on its face for me. It’s just collateral damage from not having fleshed out the character plus continuing from the awful choice to have him killed in BvS. Snyder cut or not there is no remedy for that.

 

[djsunyc]

question...did flash turn back time at the end there after the explosion?

 

[Superherofan123]

question...did flash turn back time at the end there after the explosion?

Yes

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yes... that was the one thing missing from Superman '78. We should have seen people's atomized corpses coming back together when he reversed time.

 

[Superherofan123]

Yes... that was the one thing missing from Superman '78. We should have seen people's atomized corpses coming back together when he reversed time.

Are you legitimately complaining about that? Lol. That scene was absolutely brilliant.

 

[MahvelBaby!]

Just finished it...I really really dug this man such a marked improvement over the original.

It wasn't perfect I feel there's an even greater edit in there somewhere but I'm glad they threw the kitchen sink #YOLO

As a HUGE Martian manhunter fan I'm not in love with his design but I'm just happy i got to see him in a justice league film.

 

[MahvelBaby!]

My 2 marvel and dc favs have made it to the big time Vision and Martian Manhunter. What a time to be alive.

(I love intellectual weirdo characters)

 

[Deck Rickard]

Are you legitimately complaining about that? Lol. That scene was absolutely brilliant.

No, I was joking there. That was one of the few scene with Ezra where he didn't get on my nerves.

 

[dhandler01]

There is no way to legitimately call this a Superman Trilogy. I know some twist into pretzels to do so but it isnt. I can deal with that but in truth it makes me hope the reboot rumors are true.

I think we also see why Cavill was never as gung ho about the Snyder Cut as everyone else was.

 

[kguillou]

Have to agreed. I admit I was hoping Cavill had an expanded role here and really put a cap on his arc from MoS and BvS. This is really more of a Justice League Origins trilogy which begins with Superman.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I think he does it in both versions but someone really needs to talk to Arthur about polluting his own ocean. Throwing the bottle into it after he chugs it....is he that much of a dudebro?

 

[dhandler01]

Have to agreed. I admit I was hoping Cavill had an expanded role here and really put a cap on his arc from MoS and BvS. This is really more of a Justice League Origins trilogy which begins with Superman.

I resigned myself to his small role when the only thing anyone seemed to talk about was his suit. I mean they went full bore discussing Batfleck and Letoker and restoring Cyborg's arch...but no one seemed to care about Superman at all.

BvS, while a film I love, did a disservice to Superman and the Snyderverse because it jumped headlong into a story Snyder wasn't prepared to really deal with. I mean if you can't even have a good Superman arch in a 4 hour magnum opus (that likely is your last hurrah) then...yeah best to just accept it and move on.

 

[Herolee10]

THE GOOD

• I think film professors should have their students watch both versions of this film in order to demonstrate the importance of having a good soundtrack. It's amazing how so many scenes shown in the 2017 film felt different when accompanied by Junkie XL's score.

• The buildup towards Superman's revival was SIGNIFICANTLY better in Snyder's version. It made the whole event feel more significant to the story. I had a big smile on my face hearing Zimmer's Superman theme when we saw the League realizing that Superman could be revived by the mother box.

• Although it doesn't really mean much in the long run, I still loved Bruce's line to the league about how there wasn't a League without Superman in it.

• Joss's edited version of the "History Lesson" felt like a generic ground battle with no substance. Zack's version of the same scene made me feel like I was watching something from the LOTR franchise.

• Like Zack said, Cyborg's story is truly the HEART of this film. Once again, Warner Bros proves why they're a bunch of incompetent idiots that are blind to everything but short-term profits.

• I really liked how we saw several DC characters across the globe reacting towards the echoes created by Superman's scream. It was a clever way to show that these characters are part of a larger DC Universe.

• Seeing Barry run back in time to save the League is easily my favorite moment in the entire film. The music and visuals shown really sold me on that given moment.

• Needless to say, SW came off as a more menacing villain in Snyder's cut.

THE BAD

• I'm still not a fan of how Superman was used in this film. I can actually understand why Geoff and Joss felt like they needed to rewrite some of Superman's scenes. It's a real shame that Snyder didn't think to give Superman better dialogue and moments with the other league members.

• Like others have said, Junkie went overboard with WW's new score.

• Honestly, I don't think that this film needed to be four hours long. I can think of several moments and scenes that could have been trimmed or deleted in order to have it around 2.5 hours.

• I don't know about anyone else, but Barry's first encounter with Iris came off pretty creepy. Given Barry's actions, several of my friends thought that he was going to do something perverted with Iris and the flying wiener.

• I have a hard time believing that Snyder and Wan had traded notes while JL was in the middle of production. There's just so many inconsistencies with how Atlanteans are portrayed in Snyder's film.

• Maybe it's his delivery, but I just can't seem to get invested into Ezra's performance when Barry's supposed to be having a dramatic moment. I still prefer Grant's portrayal of Barry Allen/The Flash over Ezra's.

THE UGLY

• Snyder's overreliance on CGI backgrounds really showed in this film. Now, I know Marvel isn't innocent from having bad CGI sequences. However, at least they're able to compliment it with their choice in color filters. Snyder's dark color filters doesn't compliment a lot of his CGI backgrounds. There were several scenes where I felt like Snyder could have filmed on location or create a practical set for it.

• With Henry's busy schedule and all of the COVID restrictions still enforced, I know Snyder had his hands tied with getting new footage for the film. But the repurposed MOS shot of Superman grieving over Lois was just terrible. I've seen fan edits that have done a better job in reusing archive footage for "new" scenes. I don't understand why Snyder couldn't have a production company in England film Henry in front of a green screen for like two or three simple shots.

• The design and effects used for MM's appearance looked terrible. I can't believe the CW's version looks better.

Overall, I'm glad that Snyder was able to get proper closure with this film. However, I still wouldn't want him back for more DCEU films.

 

[Another_Fool]

Yeah despite the Snyder cut being a much stronger film, it felt like the portrayal of Superman in MOS and BVS really held back the emotional impact of his scenes in JL. As it is whenever characters in ZSJL would talk about how much they miss or love Superman, it rings hollow because it wasn't that well established in the prior films.

 

[Lone]

I think he does it in both versions but someone really needs to talk to Arthur about polluting his own ocean. Throwing the bottle into it after he chugs it....is he that much of a dudebro?

Well, he doesn’t really like Atlanteans that much at this point in his life.

 

[dark_b]

I thought it was pretty good. Hands down it blows Joss Whedon's version out of the water and silences those who said there'd be no difference or worse. I don't believe this would have bombed like the theatrical cut.

It's not perfect, but I didn't have quite the qualms I did with Batman vs Superman.

wtf? this 4 hour version would have never be realesed in theaters. WB wouldn't even allow a 3 hour cut. there are no 3 hour blockbuster movies for kids for a reason. this would make even less money IMO

 

[Moncton]

3/10. I have no idea what message the fiilm was trying to convey, some characters get a backstory, others are thrown in, there's an annoying hymn whenever WW fights, the guy who is dead and should have been a focus is in it for 10 mins.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I'll need to watch the film again to fully appreciate its finer details. That being said, the scope and scale of this thing is just extraordinary. Characters I dislike in the theatrical version (e.g., Flash, Cyborg) are straight up standouts here. And I can't say enough good things about Gal's Wonder Woman, who's probably the best part about the former—she all but steals the show this time around. Her sister Amazons deserve high praise as well! Come to think of it, those Old Gods and Atlanteans are nothing to scoff at either. Generally speaking, Zack does such a great job of capturing the grandeur of mythologies the likes of which pervade our dreams and imaginations, and I'm here for it!

I wasn't planning on bringing up Whedon again, but this has to be said. What he did to Ray Fisher is inexcusable, and I'm not even referring to his gross mistreatment of the actor on-set. Not only did he reduce Fisher's original character arc to what feels paltry by comparison; but he also deliberately removed lines that would have made Cyborg feel more likeable and integral to the team dynamics. Then there's Ezra Miller's Flash. Not gonna lie, I couldn't stand him in the theatrical cut—but the kid shines like the Bat-Signal in this baby! He comes across better in virtually every way. More likeable? Check. More earnest? Check! Smarter?? Check! He's still as jocular as ever, but gone is that forced quality in his quips that makes less for laughs and more for eye-rolling in his general direction.

The villains are predictably tropey, but as relates to Steppy in particular, I like that he's at least given more to do in this story. What's more, with his discovery of the Anti-Life equation on Earth, the stakes feel significantly higher now! In terms of visuals, I much prefer this original design as well. With Darkseid, I wouldn't change too much (assuming we even get more of him in future DC films), but the MoCap work could stand for a little tweaking here and there. Nevertheless, with rising budgets being what they are, I'm not expecting vast improvement in that respect. Nor am I really yearning for it.

I do wish there was more Superman in this, however, even with Cavill making the most of what little screen time he had to work with. He was just so good in that climactic final battle w/ Steppenwolf. And how cool is it that "freeze breath" is officially canon in the Snyderverse now? Longtime members might recall a specious poster on these forums who swore up and down that Zack would never use Supes this way by virtue of how his body processes heat or some such nonsense. @BlackSuitTrael remembers. Whelp, so much for that theory! lol

Moving on to my favorite character, you all know I love Ben's Batman, particularly as he's depicted in BvS. But if I'm being honest, he seemed a little out of his depth here. I did love his interaction with Leto (who, under Zack's direction, redeemed himself in spades as the clown prince of Gotham) at the very end, though. And God bless Ironhead Studio for letting WM use the majestic cowl from BvS again! The more I see of that post-apocalyptic future in general, the more I like!

It was nice to see Lois and Martha get the fleshed-out treatment as well. In the wake of Superman's death especially, having them bond over shared grief and frustration feels right. Then again, I have mixed feelings about their little tête-à-tête for obvious reasons. Using Martian Manhunter in this manner felt like a misstep to me. Just let the real Martha have her moment, as she's no doubt earned it. You know who kind of caught me off guard, though? Billy Crudup. He was nothing short of great as Barry's father. Kiersey Clemons left quite the impression too. It speaks to her talent as an actress that, even w/o speaking lines, she can convey so much with just body language. Unfortunately, her scene was really short. Like I suspected, cutting the "romantic subplot" was tantamount to removing her from the entire movie. But that's not on Zack as far as I'm concerned. In meeting the constraints imposed upon him by the studio, it's really not hard to see how a scene like that could end up on the chopping block. As per the New York Times, he was basically forced to trim the film down to two hours and 20 minutes. And in the larger scheme of things, Iris clearly wasn't all that important to the narrative.

All in all, this was well worth the wait. Granted, the plot could've been tightened up in some areas, and the dialogue could be a little better for certain characters, but those are my only real complaints thus far.

Thank you, Zack and Deborah
Thanks, HBO Max

For Autumn

 

[The Batman]

Yes... that was the one thing missing from Superman '78. We should have seen people's atomized corpses coming back together when he reversed time.

I have the feeling JL's time reversal will be less nitpicked than S78's, despite arguably having the same problems.

 

[heatvision38]

3/10. I have no idea what message the fiilm was trying to convey, some characters get a backstory, others are thrown in, there's an annoying hymn whenever WW fights, the guy who is dead and should have been a focus is in it for 10 mins.

I'll give you Ray Fisher's answer:

 

[Marvolo]

My review:

Thanks for the gif. That moment is up there with Luke Skywalker's shoulder brush for me.


Id give the film an 8/10, and rank my enjoyment of the DCEU like this now:

ZSJL - 8/10
MOS - 8/10
WW - 8/10
Aquaman - 8/10
BvS Ultimate - 7/10
Suicide Squad - 4/10
Shazam - 4/10
WW84 - 3/10
BOP - 1/10


Shazam's kind of an odd duck for me. I can see its quality. Its a well made film and it has heart and a good story, but I just dont care about the character or that film much.

 

[moviefreak]

8/10

As a genre of comic/graphic adaption rather than traditional film adaptation, the rating of 8/10 reflected it.

For comparison, my new rating (forget to add Philip's Joker),
Joker 9.5
TDK 9
BB 8
MOS 8
ZSJL 8
TDKR 8
WW 7.5
BvS:UE 7.5
Aquaman 6.5
Shazam 6
WW84 6
Suicide Squad 6
JL:TC 3

This JL is fully realised Snyder film with the most Snyder imprint. This IMO has the cleanest story being put together compared with MOS (Goyer) & BvS (Goyer, Terrio et al) being down entirely to Terrio & Snyder writing & mapping out the whole thing.

The major thing that I like about this film is its sense of mythic grandeur while at the same time highly entertaining. I enjoyed this film far more than JL:TC, and surprisingly more than BvS.
I felt like I was watching an actual comic serial issues being shown in movie form, from issue #1 to issue #6. This much more than other cbm that I have seen.

A slightly slow-burn film that dived deeply exploring the characters and their lore.

Fisher's Cyborg/Victor Stone was highly engaging, his origin & relationship with his father fleshed out nicely. Cyborg really was the glue that held the story in JL. His is the most grievously treated character by the likes of Whedon et al. He should have got the solo film back in 2018.

Miller's Flash/Barry Allen was much better character-wise than the previous version. No silly brunch craps and his comedic moments were better. The incompetent suits at WB missed out on Rick Famuyiwa who would have based his Flash film off this version. I'm angry most of all for this lose opportunity than any other cbm. I remember Famuyiwa's comment:

I pitched a version of the film in line with my voice, humor and heart.
....
tell stories that speak to a fresh generational, topical and multicultural point of view.

Batman/Bruce was much better in this version as this Batman has guilt complex but still hold out hope by having faith in Superman. Speaking about Superman/Clark, his resurrection was much better handled. Clark's at the Kent family farm, his reunion with Lois & Martha was much more emotional mainly due to the increased focus on how Lois & Martha were devastated by his death earlier in the film. Superman shines without making the other members look useless and they act as a team. Seeing as how it was conceived before 2017 and the film focused more on other members of JL team, Superman's role was limited by design and he would have a solo MOS 2 film follow JL.

I have no problem with Superman in black suit. Likewise I wasn't bothered by the Darkseid-influenced Superman in his traditional colour- I knew that you'all get upset over over such fine nitpicks. I have read enough comics to know that the old dorky Clark & blue boy Superman stories were boring. The only concession I'll give is Superman from Birthright & Kingdom Come of the modern comic variants. I have a suggestion: let Abrams & Ta-Neshi Coates play with their version of Cavill(?) Superman, meanwhile get someone else to work on Snyder's Cavill Superman development from MOS-BvS-JL-MOS 2 funded by HBOMax. WB wanted multiverse, so embrace it!

Aquaman/Curry's scene with Mera & Vulko was much meaningful and obviously was meant to be a starting off point for Wan's (darker) Aquaman film before WB suits changed it to be light & fluffy. heh.

Wonder Woman/Diana was vastly better in JL than in WW84. She's much closer to the first WW film version. Her scenes against the terrorists & interaction with the civilian were on point. Wonder Woman has a duality in that she's a warrior to her core but also a woman of peace. I have a feeling that Jenkins cannot write decent WW story. The first WW film was mainly down to the guy that Snyder hired to write: Allan Heinberg, all the story stuffs including the No-Man-Land sequences reeked of Heinberg rather than Jenkins & Johns. I'm betting that Jenkins & Johns will mess up WW 3 again.

Steppenwolf. What can I say! lol

Steppenwolf vastly improved in vfx and character-wise. He's more threatening with defined motivations. But what a sad little puppy he was when he speak & bowed to Desaad & Darkseid. lol

The tunnel fight was better, and the final battle was one of the most intense I've seen for a while. I like that sequence of Darkseid's feet crushing Steppenwolf's head. lol Speaking about Darkseid, IMO, his backstory was not explored much, I supposed probably meant to be explored further in the JL sequels.

I like the Knightmare sequences which really established that Batman & others went through multiple timelines, unsuccessfully. Leto's Joker is fine. I love the idea of two spin-off films, Legion of Doom & Knightmare rather than the tradition Superman, Wonder Woman & Batman films.

Although brief, Martian Manhunter's scene was well done.

Thank for:
No CGI mouth on Superman.
No thirsty.
No smell nice. Well we got the Iceland woman lusting after Aquaman by smelling his shirt. lol
No Russian Family. Really pointless having family living in the most uninhabitable place on Earth just to showcase a family for the League to save. Steppenwolf's base of operation is there in order to rebuff any complaint about collateral damages. lmao

Marc McClure who was the Jimmy Olsen in Reeve's Superman was much more prominent in this film and better treated as a cameo actor. I supposed that Snyder probably had him in to just to say, "See Jimmy is still alive." after having him shot to piece in BvS. lmao.

Superman: Hope is like your car keys.
Superman: I have a second chance. I'm not gonna waste it.

The Flash: Like brunch. Like, what is brunch?
The Flash: Make your own future. Make your own past. It's all right now.

Cyborg: I don't even understand the physics of how my toes hurt.
Cyborg: I'm not broken, and I'm not alone.

Alfred Pennyworth: But those are very big guns. You've got a team here.
Alfred Pennyworth: How do you know your team is strong enough? If you can't bring down the charging bull, then don't wave the red Cape at it.

Terrio really put his stamp on this film, rather than working off other scripts as in his other works.

 

[elgaz]

My review:

I liked the parallel here of Ares driving his axe into Darkseid's shoulder in the original battle thousands of years ago, and defeating him - then reversing it for the modern day with Steppenwolf trying the same move on Superman, but achieving nothing.