🇮🇱🇵🇸 The Israel-Palestine Politics Thread II

[hippie_hunter]

Also spell Israel correctly! I-S-R-A-E-L. It's not spelt Is-real.

 

[Taarna]

He's not a registered lobbyist for the Palestinians, you just have some bizarre allergy to basic facts.

I take it sarcasm has no place here? Also, unless you know him personally you can't say what he is or is not.

The poster presents a one-sided argument for a group of people best known for terrorism and hatred for the West.

 

[Fenrir]

The poster presents a one-sided argument for a group of people best known for terrorism and hatred for the West.

If you're going to respond to his points, then at least try to use some basic facts instead of resorting to empty rhetoric and dimwitted generalizations.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Midnyte Sun,

You might as well come out as a registered lobbyist for Palestinians.

Are you dodging all the points I made again?

You're too short sided to see that many of the groups problems are based on their leadership's choices.

Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, were all created as a direct response to Israel. They never existed before ultra nationalist European Jews and the rest of the Jewish diaspora decided to all move to a predominantly Arab part of the world.

I'll say it again, not one nation on this earth is going to tolerate 100's of attacks against it. Yet, this is what we see.

Its what your selective reasoning sees. Did you forget the siege on Gaza, where the entire population has been besieged and the Gaza War just a few years ago? Everybody agrees it was collective punishment. Over 140 legal international legal experts have concluded the same thing.

I do not believe you when you say you are against a Palestinian state.

You understand nothing that doesn't fit your shallow narrative. I'm for a unified state. The Two state solution is dead. What I don't want to see is Israel fall deeper into a Jewish theocratic state where there are laws that favor Jews over non Jews; although, this is already happening unfortunately. Muslims are having more children than Jews in Israel. Their population has doubled while the Jewish population has decreased. In order to keep their majority, they are currently importing Jews from Europe (France) and Eastern Europe.

Also, Isreal does not consider Palestinians living in the West bank or Gaza as citizens. I'm not up on the population totals or birth rates, but it seems like you want one very tiny nation to take them all in...a group that hates them, in hopes they can obtain some sort of democratic voting majority.

Its funny when you talk about Israel being a democracy, when it is really a paper democracy wrapped in Bantustan policies. Israel is the only country where the opposition is being systematically kicked out and their lands seized by right wing ultra nationalist Israeli settlers. The left leaning parties only retain nominal representation and the IDF controls the press. The press is allowed to operate freely, but truly damaging or scathing reports are left censored. Israeli sympathizers in the West pressure foreign press to do the same. If this is a true democracy, then as Americans, Canadians, Australians, British, and others need to be asking more transparency and accountability since we are paying for their colonial experiment.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Great Video on Israeli troops Breaking their Silence



Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGbV_rXmS1M

 

[regwec]

Israel is the only country where the opposition is being systematically kicked out and their lands seized by right wing ultra nationalist Israeli settlers.

It would be quite surprising if right wing ultra nationalist Israeli settlers tried to kick, say, the Social Democrats out of Germany, wouldn't it?

 

[Taarna]

If you're going to respond to his points, then at least try to use some basic facts instead of resorting to empty rhetoric and dimwitted generalizations.

I did list several points. Your myopic view just can't them or your brain can comprehend them. Take your pick.

Educate yourself. This group votes for war, treats women as 2nd class citizens, and if you live in the USA or West, very likely hates your values. Swell people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

 

[Schlosser85]

Your myopic view just can't them or your brain can comprehend them. Take your pick.

Your kettle calling is consistently hilarious.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

It would be quite surprising if right wing ultra nationalist Israeli settlers tried to kick, say, the Social Democrats out of Germany, wouldn't it?

lol, right, although the Nazis beat them to it. Its easy to get unanimous support when you simply kicked out all the people who oppose your government.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

I did list several points. Your myopic view just can't them or your brain can comprehend them. Take your pick.

Educate yourself. This group votes for war, treats women as 2nd class citizens, and if you live in the USA or West, very likely hates your values. Swell people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

You accuse me of dodging your points and I am telling you to give me a point and I will analyze it very thoroughly for you. Then I'll ask you to go over one my points.

Let's go over your first point: Palestine doesn't exist. Tell me what you mean by this statement. It didn't exist as a nation like Israel before WW2? Or you mean, historically, the notion of Palestine, the word, the people that inherited this land, never existed? Tell me also, how the nation of Israel did exist from this point up until the dawn of civilization. My hobby is to study history, specifically the history of Some Western, Central, South, and East Asia. Maybe we can learn from each other.

 

[regwec]

lol, right, although the Nazis beat them to it. Its easy to get unanimous support when you simply kicked out all the people who oppose your government.

I see. So the Social Democrats are no longer an active party in Germany, and the National Socialists have had political hegemony since 1933?

 

[Taarna]

You accuse me of dodging your points and I am telling you to give me a point and I will analyze it very thoroughly for you. Then I'll ask you to go over one my points.

Let's go over your first point: Palestine doesn't exist. Tell me what you mean by this statement. It didn't exist as a nation like Israel before WW2? Or you mean, historically, the notion of Palestine, the word, the people that inherited this land, never existed? Tell me also, how the nation of Israel did exist from this point up until the dawn of civilization. My hobby is to study history, specifically the history of Some Western, Central, South, and East Asia. Maybe we can learn from each other.

To be clear,

I accuse you of being one sided, very pro-Palestinian, and anti-Isreali.

Isreal has been a nation for 60+ years. They are hardly a new nation. They also have historical claims to the land, and share some of it with other religions.

I found your wish of letting the entire group into Isreal nefarious as the Palestinians would have the greater numbers and Isreal as we know it would cease to exist.

Palestinians never had their own nation, and commit horrible acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. They are anti-USA, the burn of flags, danaced in the streets on 911, and such. Yet you champion / defend them here?

If you comprehend what I write, I'm for the Gaza and West Bank people getting most of the West bank and a road with a sea port to the Mediterranean Sea, but only if they have new leadership and use diplomacy, not terrorism and hate to accomplish their goals.

Any nation hit by terrorism as much has the right to defend itself. What Isreal does is tame compared to what other nations or leaders would do if they were attacked in a similar fashion.

 

[Thundercrack85]

To be clear,

I accuse you of being one sided, very pro-Palestinian, and anti-Isreali.

Isreal has been a nation for 60+ years. They are hardly a new nation. They also have historical claims to the land, and share some of it with other religions.

I found your wish of letting the entire group into Isreal nefarious as the Palestinians would have the greater numbers and Isreal as we know it would cease to exist.

Palestinians never had their own nation, and commit horrible acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. They are anti-USA, the burn of flags, danaced in the streets on 911, and such. Yet you champion / defend them here?

If you comprehend what I write, I'm for the Gaza and West Bank people getting most of the West bank and a road with a sea port to the Mediterranean Sea, but only if they have new leadership and use diplomacy, not terrorism and hate to accomplish their goals.

Any nation hit by terrorism as much has the right to defend itself. What Isreal does is tame compared to what other nations or leaders would do if they were attacked in a similar fashion.

How is 60 years not a young nation? America is considered a young nation and it's about to celebrate it's 240th birthday.

Palestinians have as much a right to that land as the Israelis do. Most have more, really, since they had been living there for centuries. Only a small minority of Israelis can make the same claim.

The Palestinians don't have a nation because Israel and the powers that be stopped them. Now Israel is ethnically cleansing them from their lands.

There is no Palestine anymore. Only Ramallah, and a few plots of desert land. Everything else is occupied, or settled by Israeli settlers.

 

[Taarna]

How is 60 years not a young nation? America is considered a young nation and it's about to celebrate it's 240th birthday.

Palestinians have as much a right to that land as the Israelis do. Most have more, really, since they had been living there for centuries. Only a small minority of Israelis can make the same claim.

The Palestinians don't have a nation because Israel and the powers that be stopped them. Now Israel is ethnically cleansing them from their lands.

There is no Palestine anymore. Only Ramallah, and a few plots of desert land. Everything else is occupied, or settled by Israeli settlers.

To be factually correct, Isreal was formed in 1948, so the nation will be 68 yards old this May.

Most Palensitians were not alive when Isreal was formed and the map has remained unchanged for several decades.

The leadership and mindset of the Palensitians have been terrible. They continue to try terrorism or war as their primary means. Diplomacy if they can police their own, can give them their own land in the West Bank.

Isreal is a small nation about the size of New Jersey. How come they don't seek land or migrate to Egypt, Jordan or Saudia Arabia? It's because they HATE and are being used by Iran for dirty work.

PS: Why not give half the USA back to Mexico and the Native American's?
They have a much better case. This, of course, is humor but falls withing the line of thinking of that the Palestinians have a claim to the land even though Jews can claim the land circa 1209 BC

>>>Answer, too much time has passed.

 

[Fenrir]

I did list several points. Your myopic view just can't them or your brain can comprehend them. Take your pick.

Educate yourself. This group votes for war, treats women as 2nd class citizens, and if you live in the USA or West, very likely hates your values. Swell people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

I hate your values (you know, "voting for war, treating women as 2nd class citizens" and the like), so does that mean I too get to massacre your kind with cluster bombs and white phosphorous and take your lands with impunity?

Just because you dehumanize someone by painting them as savages doesn't give you the license to act like one.

 

[Taarna]

I hate your values (you know, "voting for war, treating women as 2nd class citizens" and the like), so does that mean I too get to massacre your kind with cluster bombs and white phosphorous and take your lands with impunity?

Just because you dehumanize someone by painting them as savages doesn't give you the license to act like one.

No it does not give " my kind " the right to attack.

Yet that's what we see from " your group ". There is no doubt which group is openly committing and taking credit for terrorism. When this happens the group that is attacked has a right to defend themselves.

The right to deter or defend from a jihad like attacker does does not make anyone a savage.

 

[Fenrir]

No it does not give " my kind " the right to attack.

Yet that's what we see from " your group ". There is no doubt which group is openly committing and taking credit for terrorism. When this happens the group that is attacked has a right to defend themselves.

The right to deter or defend from a jihad like attacker does does not make anyone a savage.

Pray tell, how is using white phosphorous munitions and cluster bombs in a densely populated region like Gaza in any way "defending" one self? Every time Israel does a major incursion into Palestinian territories, the civilian death ratio to that of suspected terrorists is something like 20:1 or 30:1 at the very least.

The IDF, as admitted on record by many former Israeli soldiers, have absolutely zero regard for civilian lives. That, combined with the disgusting land grab by allowing illegal settlements to flourish in Palestinian territories that is unanimously condemned by every major country on Earth including the U.S clearly points to Israel's true intentions.

And you know what's ironic? The fact that jihadi outfits use the exact same arguments for targeting civilians that the Israelis do when they collectively punish the Palestinians under the pretenses of fighting Hamas. Radical jihadists also claim that civilians are fair game in this war because of their support for the policies and actions adopted by their governments. I am baffled how this entire "guilt-by-association" rhetoric is condemned when used by terrorists yet condoned when used by the Israelis.

 

[Taarna]

Fenrir,

Some questions.

1 ) Do you support groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO? Yes or no?

2 ) Are you for Iran fighting proxy wars vs the USA and aiding these groups who use terms as a means to advance their cause? Yes or no?

3 ) These above groups attack 1,000's of times, and it doesn't work well for them. Don't you think they should stop and police their own?

 

[Taarna]

Midnyte_Sun;33185557 said :

You understand nothing that doesn't fit your shallow narrative. I'm for a unified state. The Two state solution is dead. What I don't want to see is Israel fall deeper into a Jewish theocratic state where there are laws that favor Jews over non Jews; although, this is already happening unfortunately. Muslims are having more children than Jews in Israel. Their population has doubled while the Jewish population has decreased. In order to keep their majority, they are currently importing Jews from Europe (France) and Eastern Europe.

On the contrary, I know what you are all about. You want Isreal as we know it was gone and by asking for a unified state ( Something no nation would accept with opposing values from a larger opposite group ) the Arabs via a larger population numbers can vote all laws out and enforce their own. And with a majority, they might very well make Isreal's discrimination against look tame.

You might want to educate yourself a bit. Jews are not welcome in France by many. That is why they are leaving.

Since victory can not be achieved by strength or arms, and the moral high ground is something your side lacks, you try something devious. It's transparent, you are fooling nobody!

The separate state solution can work but only if the Palenstians ethics and leadership become better.

 

[Fenrir]

Fenrir,

Some questions.

1 ) Do you support groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO? Yes or no?

No.

2 ) Are you for Iran fighting proxy wars vs the USA and aiding these groups who use terms as a means to advance their cause? Yes or no?

No.

3 ) These above groups attack 1,000's of times, and it doesn't work well for them. Don't you think they should stop and police their own?

How is that in any way relevant to what Israel's actions? Even if for the sake of argument I say yes, does that justify or excuse the massive civilian casualties caused by Israel's use of devastating weaponry (such as cluster bombs and white phosphorous) on densely-populated Palestinian regions?

Oh and you still haven't addressed the points in my last post, so those stand as well.

 

[Taarna]

No.



No.



How is that in any way relevant to what Israel's actions? Even if for the sake of argument I say yes, does that justify or excuse the massive civilian casualties caused by Israel's use of devastating weaponry (such as cluster bombs and white phosphorous) on densely-populated Palestinian regions?

Oh and you still haven't addressed the points in my last post, so those stand as well.

It good to know you don't support Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, or Proxy wars. Yet they are completely absent from your argument. They are the main problem. Yet you blame the nation that is attacked.

How are they relevant to Israel's actions? You've got to be kidding me. If attacked, a nation has the right to respond. If those who attack hide in areas of population and continued their jihad in the area, the nation being attacked has the right to protect themselves. That's war, and one side keeps starting it.

I answered your only point that mattered, which is a unified nation ( Where Arabs outnumber Jews ) is a way to wipe Israel off the map via democracy, which would likely turn into Sharia law in time.

 

[Fenrir]

It good to know you don't support Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, or Proxy wars. Yet they are completely absent from your argument. They are the main problem. Yet you blame the nation that is attacked.

Just because a nation is attacked gives them no right whatsoever to act in a manner that is even more barbaric than the barbarians who attacked them. And it is funny how you equate Hamas, Hezbollah et al with ALL Palestinians, including countless civilians who simply want to live normal life without fear of getting bombed into oblivion or being squeezed to the point of desperation by Israel's inhumane blockade of Gaza. Your lot deliberately dehumanizes Palestinians day in and day out just so you can sleep peacefully at night after Israel's atrocities, but those of us with an actual conscience know better.

How are they relevant to Israel's actions? You've got to be kidding me. If attacked, a nation has the right to respond. If those who attack hide in areas of population and continued their jihad in the area, the nation being attacked has the right to protect themselves. That's war, and one side keeps starting it.

Again, response has to be proportionate and that is what the dimwitted pro-Israel camp always seem to conveniently forget. They bark about how the IDF is the world's most "moral army" yet look at the actual footage of Israel's incursions into Gaza. Even some of Israel's closest allies have often condemned the extremity of Israel's actions. Israel has carried out targeted strikes and assassinations of PLO and Hamas leaders countless times in the past incurring very small (if any) civilian casualties, yet Israel even with its world-class armed forces and intelligence services, periodically tends to conveniently forget this capability and becomes an absolute bloodthirsty savage by punishing the Palestinian civilians under the pretext of retaliating against Hamas. Again, the terrorists you claim to be fighting use this exact same logic to justify their targeting of innocent civilians - hence why to me Israel is no different than its enemies and in some ways is even worse.

I answered your only point that mattered, which is a unified nation ( Where Arabs outnumber Jews ) is a way to wipe Israel off the map via democracy, which would likely turn into Sharia law in time.

Arabs outnumbering Jews is only a recent phenomenon, and are routinely treated as second-class citizens with nowhere near equal rights as the Jewish population. Look no further than the increasing influencing of xenophobic right-wing parties with their racist and derogatory rhetoric about "goys" and Netenyahu's final pre-election plea to his people to vote his party into power or else the "Arabs will take over". Simply throwing buzzwords like "sharia law" might be enough to scare uneducated simpletons, but anyone with a working brain knows Biblical or Talmudic law is just as oppressive and barbaric as Sharia law, so let us drop the silly false equivalencies and fake moral superiorites, okay? It is only making the conversation unnecessarily tedious. As far as I'm concerned, all you religious nuts are making life hell for everyone everywhere, whether it is here in the States or any place overseas, and you would be doing us all a huge favor if you could just bugger off to some far away place where you can freely settle your medieval disputes without dragging the entire world into it.

And no, you didn't answer my previous points (a few of which I have reiterated in this post as well). Try again.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

I see. So the Social Democrats are no longer an active party in Germany, and the National Socialists have had political hegemony since 1933?

Well it took an allied resistance to kick out the Nazis to allow them to come back right? Are you making an analogous comparison of Israel and Nazi Germany?

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

To be clear,

I accuse you of being one sided, very pro-Palestinian, and anti-Isreali.

I'm against ethnic cleansing, of any kind, whether it is the Armenian genocide, or the ethnic cleansing of the former Yugoslavia. There is only ONE side to take in ethnic cleansing. You, unfortunately, are on the wrong side of history on this.

Isreal has been a nation for 60+ years. They are hardly a new nation. They also have historical claims to the land, and share some of it with other religions.

Is this your justification that Palestine never existed? Therefore the people that inhabited and lived there never existed? That is very loose ground you are standing on.

As known by any historian, Israel was unilaterally created in May 14, 1948, when the Zionist leadership again, unilaterally, and with no legal authority, declared Israel’s existence, with no specification as to the extent of the new state’s borders. In a moment, the Zionists had declared that Arabs no longer the owners of their land – it now belonged to the Jews. In an instant, the Zionists had declared that the majority Arabs of Palestine were now second-class citizens in the new “Jewish State”.

The Arabs, needless to say, did not passively accept this development, and neighboring Arab countries declared war on the Zionist regime in order to prevent such a grave injustice against the majority inhabitants of Palestine.

It must be emphasized that the Zionists had no right to most of the land they declared as part of Israel, while the Arabs did. This war, therefore, was not, as is commonly asserted in mainstream commentary, an act of aggression by the Arab states against Israel. Rather, the Arabs were acting in defense of their rights, to prevent the Zionists from illegally and unjustly taking over Arab lands and otherwise disenfranchising the Arab population. The act of aggression was the Zionist leadership’s unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel, and the Zionists’ use of violence to enforce their aims both prior to and subsequent to that declaration.

In the course of the war that ensued, Israel implemented a policy of ethnic cleansing. 700,000 Arab Palestinians were either forced from their homes or fled out of fear of further massacres, such as had occurred in the village of Deir Yassin shortly before the Zionist declaration. These Palestinians have never been allowed to return to their homes and land, despite it being internationally recognized and encoded in international law that such refugees have an inherent “right of return”.

According to UNHCR, there are now 5 to 6.5 Million Palestinian refugees. Almost, if not more than the same number of Jews ethnically cleansed in Europe. 1 in 3 Refugees in the world are Palestinian.

Source

Source 2

Source 3



--

Again, lets get back to your first point: Palestine never existed. Would it be safe to assume that Israel did not exist either prior to 1948?

 

[Taarna]

“Iran so far has followed the letter of the agreement, but the spirit of the agreement involves Iran also sending signals to the world community and businesses that it is not going to be engaging in a range of provocative actions that are going to scare businesses off,” Obama said at a press conference.

“When they launch ballistic missiles with slogans calling for the destruction of Israel, that makes businesses nervous.” - Obama

Our President is either clueless, or made this deal for his own nefarious reasons. Iran by the way funds terrorism against other nations.