The Israel Situation II

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well, first, regardless of what he said, he'll always be an a-hole, its just his personality

second, I feel its completely inappropriate for a foreign leader with a piss-poor diplomatic track record like his to come in front of his cheerleaders in our congress to push his policy agenda; his claim that it's not partisan is laughable, going around the sitting president and speaking out against his diplomatic efforts is literally the definition of partisan.

how do we think the republicans would act if Obama invited China's Xinping over to push for the TPP in front of Congress (an issue I disagree with the administration on strongly)?? That's right, they'd lose their friggin' minds.

So now, not only do we have to deal with massive corporate lobbying campaigns, now we have foreign leaders making a show of it for their campaigns

On top of that, Bibi offered zero evidence for his side, basically boiling it down to "Iran still sucks, I promise!" despite the overtures that Iran has made since Rouhani took office. Granted, those are probably just that, overtures, with no real follow through. But having one belligerent *****e to tell us not to deal with another belligerent *****e is not exactly convincing, as well as being the height of hypocrisy coming from that man's mouth. He also offered no viable alternative to the deal, and seems content with the state of constant brinksmanship. Its either that, or the man is just really aching for all out war.

Then he drops biblical references to make this into a friggin' holy war of the good Isrealites fighting the evil Persians. The man needs to stop drawing his foreign policy from a 3000 year old book of moral fables.

At one point he said "If iran wants to be treated like a normal country, they must act like a normal country"
Same can be said for your administration there boyo

I'm not in any way trying to say we should suddenly trust Iran, or that the deal will work as intended, but having this friggin guy state his opinion in front of Congress pushes me the complete opposite direction on the issue

So... you don't exactly disagree with anything he said?

Netanyahu's alternative to this "bad deal", as he sees it, are much stronger sanctions; he did make the point of not wanting to have a physical conflict.

I agree that no deal is better than a "bad deal", and stronger sanctions can be imposed if Iran won't cooperate.

Iran has lied to UN inspectors multiple times. We already have more than enough evidence to prove Iran can't be trusted.
 
George Washington Weighs in on Bibi Netanyahu's Speech to Congress

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Arguments about the founding fathers' intent tend to be stupid. They are the province of elitist dullards and libertarian misrememberers. When not absurdly speculative, their cases ignore that our framers intended minorities and women to be chattel. But every so often, a framer speaks precisely to our modern condition.

Yesterday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu—who may soon lose his job—addressed Congress with a controversial speech about the evils of Islam in general and Iran in particular. As my colleague J.K. Trotter pointed out on Monday, the speech was controversial even before it happened. It was controversial because the United States is in the midst of a historic, if problematic, diplomatic negotiation with Iran over its stated ambitions to acquire nuclear weapons, and Netanyahu thinks negotiating with evil Iran is evil. House Republicans believe the same thing—or at least they purport to—and so, led by Speaker John Boehner, they invited Netanyahu to speak, and to undermine President Obama's political process, a move whose stupidity was rivaled only by its unoriginality.

What does this have to do with George Washington, a long-dead denture-loving cropper who fought Hessians and chased slaves? In 1796, the first American president decided to retire from office, worn down to the nub by the nation's nascent backbiting political culture. But before leaving office, Washington delivered a much-ballyhooed farewell address offering a long list of prescriptions to his would-be successors—"the disinterested warnings of a parting friend," he called them. Chief among his suggestions was a warning that seems eerily prescient in light of the House GOP's convenient courting of Netanyahu. It was an admonition that political partisans should not divide and weaken the U.S. by making alliances with foreign leaders against internal opponents:

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension...serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

Factional politics were already scurrilous and divisive in Washington's day; they were "a spirit not to be encouraged" in a democracy, he said. The solution was for elected officials to stay in their legally specified lanes:

It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another.​

So often, these words have been cited as a check on the very imperial presidency that Washington's tenure helped bring about. The executive branch of government has expanded ever since, its halls stuffed with presidential partisans, and it's never a bad idea to be skeptical of this power. But Washington's warning goes for congressional partisans, too: Obstruction of executive ambitions is one thing; dictating policy to the president—especially foreign policy—is another.

Conservatives today get some things right about Washington. He believed that America was an exceptional nation, for example, and that believing in America's blessings yielded good governance. But the substance of that governance looks nothing like the jingoistic blatherings of today's hawkish right wing.

First, Washington warned, policy should never be based on the slapping of unchanging "good ally" and "evil enemy" labels on foreign nations:

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded and that in place of them just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest.​

Compare this to Netanyahu's speech to Congress yesterday, which ostensibly held as its thesis the idea that if you love America—and you must!—then you must love Israel, and there can be no Israel outside of Netanyahu and his partisans:

I want to thank you, Democrats and Republicans, for your common support for Israel, year after year, decade after decade.

(APPLAUSE)

I know that no matter on which side of the aisle you sit, you stand with Israel.

(APPLAUSE)

The remarkable alliance between Israel and the United States has always been above politics. It must always remain above politics.​

Washington would be aghast at this rhetoric uttered by a foreign politician invited to the well of Congress by a single political party's leadership; he warned that "a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils."

Of course we should have an abiding interest in seeing Israelis—Jews, Arabs, and others—live peaceably and democratically. The world's peoples are intricately more interdependent than in the days of Washington. But that's precisely why smarmy simplicity is no solution to the problems of the Middle East, and why we should refuse to consume the hawkish drivel that Netanyahu spoon-feeds us in a TV moment staged by Republicans looking to score fast points against a sitting president. As Washington put it, that kind of reflexive thinking leads to death and mayhem:

Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification.​

It turns America into a hypocritical, iniquitous, coddling parent, multiplying its problems:

It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions, by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld.​

And it serves the GOP's stupid, avaricious, ironically anti-republican ambitions perfectly:

And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.​

Netanyahu made the most of this absurd moment, asserting that the American patriot is an Israeli patriot is a Likudnik, and thus if you are a good American, you must also hate Iran, and you must do it in a specific way, by favoring the hawkish posture toward Iran that Israel's current prime minister holds:

Today the Jewish people face another attempt by yet another Persian potentate to destroy us... But Iran's regime is not merely a Jewish problem, any more than the Nazi regime was merely a Jewish problem... Iran's regime poses a grave threat, not only to Israel, but also the peace of the entire world.​

Foreign policy is always a complex navigation through hazardous waters: At any moment, a ship of state can ground itself on the interests of many actors. The worst course anyone could take is a simplistic one, one that makes a monolith of every culture and nation. Congress made Netanyahu the stand-in for all of Israel; Netanyahu made Iran Israel's incontrovertible enemy, the 21st century Nazi state, one that seeks nuclear armament not for deterrence, not for the trappings of superpower status, not as a provocation to gain concessions, but as a means to fulfill its evil destiny: the extinction of Israel and the Jewish people.

We Americans gobble up this spicy tripe at our own risk; it will ulcerate our body politic—as Washington knew so well:

Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times, it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.​

Perpetual hatred of the other is a fantastic expedient for a faction seeking domestic power. It is also horrible for liberty and peace. These are not the words of Noam Chomsky; this is a slave-owning Virginian general speaking to us.

Nevertheless, the House GOP has made such hatred the centerpiece of its brand. It is how the brand distinguishes itself from the cheese-eating surrender-monkey caricature it offers of Democratic governance. "As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot," Washington complained:

How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.​

This is precisely the situation House Republicans have seen fit to reinforce. Netanyahu's aims are baldly and dishonestly domestic political ones, notwithstanding his smarmy speechifying to the contrary. "I know that my speech has been the subject of much controversy," he said yesterday. "I deeply regret that some perceive my being here as political. That was never my intention."

That's an insult to the listener's intelligence. Netanyahu's speech was broadcast live in Israel at news hour, 6 p.m., two weeks ahead of a nationwide vote that will determine whether he will remain in power atop a crumbling right-wing coalition. Part of that coalition has bailed on him. The center and the left in Israel are gaining momentum. His opinion on Iran is not Israel's; it is an albatross garbling a death rattle that Team Boehner wishes to hang around the neck of the American body politic. And just as Washington predicted, Team Boehner is succeeding, because not even the specter of Islamofascism can kill an American republic as quickly as cynical partisan fearmongering.

http://fortressamerica.gawker.com/g...-netanyahus-speech-t-1689411864/+LeahBeckmann

Damn son, wise words from Washington. Crazy to think this stupid bi-partisan BS was going on even with the first President
 
I don't trust Netanyahu at all...he just seems so...I don't even know the word. There's just something about him...the way he thinks just feels off.
 
Israel losing the Debate - in more ways than one: Cambridge Public Debate

Ben White
Friday, 06 March 2015 13:55

Last night, I participated in a debate at the Cambridge Union on 'This House Believes Israel is a Rogue State.' Speaking alongside Ghada Karmi and Norman Finkelstein for the proposition, the motion was carried by 51 percent to 19 percent - with a 7 percent swing from the pre-debate vote.

The debating chamber was packed, and the atmosphere charged. At the end of the debate, cries of 'Free, Free Palestine' rang out. But my main takeaway from the proceedings was the sheer weakness of the opposition's arguments - a microcosm of pro-Israel propaganda that simply no longer works.

In my opening speech, I pointed out that the issue was not about whether Israel is 'perfect', or makes 'mistakes'. To concede that Israel is 'not perfect', as I suggested the opposition may do, is in fact no concession at all, and misses the point. The issue is whether Israel violates international law and human rights, and whether it does so systematically.

I also stressed that the debate was not about the record of other countries or actors, in the region or elsewhere. It was not about Iran or Syria, Hamas or ISIS, North Korea or Russia. The Cambridge debating chamber hosts debates about dozens of topics of international interest but last night, the subject was Israeli policy, and the question was plain - is Israel a rogue state?

Yet in the speech directly following mine, Vivian Wineman, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, opened up for the opposition by stating exactly what I had predicted just minutes before: 'Israel is not perfect.' Such is the reliance of Israel's apologists on predictable talking points.

Similarly, Wineman – like the other two opposition speakers - indulged in the familiar tactic of citing abuses by other states (Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, etc.). The rest of his talk was a regurgitation of tired talking points about the Israeli army's morality and so forth.

Joining Wineman in opposing the motion were Hannah Weisfeld, head of liberal Zionist advocacy group Yachad, and Davis Lewin, deputy director of the Henry Jackson Society.

Weisfeld's approach was to immediately state she had no intention of defending the occupation or settlements. The bulk of her speech was an attempt to demonstrate that Israel could not be a rogue state because it has parliamentary democracy, an independent judiciary, a free press, and that critics of the government are not arrested.

She did not clarify if this wonderful list also applies to the millions of Palestinians living for half a century under a military regime.

Extraordinarily, Weisfeld claimed that her argument was further confirmed by her ability to visit Israel freely as a critic of the occupation. Meanwhile opposite her, was a speaker excluded from her homeland because she is Palestinian, and an American Jew denied entry for his political activities.

Wineman's old school hasbara and Weisfeld's new school 'nuance' were followed by an extraordinary contribution from Davis Lewin. His performance was 10 minutes of screaming, finger-jabbing, and insults directed at both speakers and Union members.

Lewin's speech was a combination of Twitter troll and YouTube commenter - and sheds light on the nature of the Henry Jackson Society, a think-tank in the loosest sense of the word.

Together, Wineman, Weisfeld, and Lewin represent the variety of Israeli propaganda strategy in all its limited predictability: historical fantasies, faux-liberal concern, and offensive smears.

Presented with the arguments, the University of Cambridge students voted with their feet, and found Israel to be a rogue state by an overwhelming majority.

Ethnic cleansing, colonisation, war crimes; behind these repeated Israeli policy decisions is a disregard for and defiance of a global order shaped by international law and treaties. It is an attitude that stretches from the founding of Israel through to its politicians and leaders of today.

In 1955, Israel's first prime minister Ben-Gurion stated that: "Our future does not depend on what the nations [the international community] say, but what the Jews do." Jump forward to 2007, and Tzipi Livni - former minister and so-called 'moderate' - revealed: "I am a lawyer...But I am against law - international law in particular. Law in general."

Israel commits grave, systematic violations of international law; expands beyond its borders; and seriously abuses the human rights of Palestinians terrorised by settlers acting with impunity. The evidence is irrefutable - and the theatrics of apartheid apologists can no longer hide it.

Source
 
It seems the Cambridge Union has become much more Arabist since I watched the heavy defeat of a motion declaring Ariel Sharon to be part of the problem.

I voted 'aye'.
 
The repeated and underlying sentiment of any current discussion is that Israel's existence is a problem.

It's a little odd that in almost all discussions of international relations people can separate an agent from the entity. In cases like the post above it's almost always the all-encompassing "Israel" that's referred to. Like every citizen is homogenous in their beliefs and actions.

Perhaps it's not what each member of the growing anti-Israel horde believes, but it's what their language use reflects. I'm also wondering when people will suggest actual responses that can improve the situation, or if all they're concerned about is vocally championing some pet social justice project rather than at least consider how things can positively change.

Edit: Nvm, just noticed it's a pervasive trend in all the Hype politics topics. I guess when members are so used to seeing rhetoric, obfuscation, and exaggeration then the only way they know how to respond is in the same way - with more rhetoric, obfuscation, and exaggeration.
 
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Israel has always been something of a rogue state though, even putting aside the Palestinian issue. A future Israeli prime minister masterminded the murder the UN mediator in 1948. Then there was the sinking of the USS Liberty in 1967.

It's just always been better than its enemies who openly spout genocidal rhetoric.
 
The Jewish state in the Levant is a convenient thing to hate. Radical Islam asserts a sickly blend of neurotic victimhood and genocidal aggression for which Israel provides a conveniently robust and alien adversary. The leftist Western commentariat are committed to cultural refutation and moral relativism: Israel, for them, is unforgivably white, democratic and capitalist.
 
I assume that's why the far right in America loves it so.

I realize the situation is more complex. Israel has its share of skeletons in the closet, but they have historically at least made an attempt to coexist with the Arabs. I also realize that living under constant threat of a second Holocaust will take a serious toll on a civilization.
 
The Jewish state in the Levant is a convenient thing to hate. Radical Islam asserts a sickly blend of neurotic victimhood and genocidal aggression for which Israel provides a conveniently robust and alien adversary. The leftist Western commentariat are committed to cultural refutation and moral relativism: Israel, for them, is unforgivably white, democratic and capitalist.

These wouldn't happen to be Marxists in the leftist Western commentariat, would they? Somewhat ironic in that case.

The bold is a little disturbing and I hadn't really expected that, but I suppose you might be right. I'm just finding it difficult to explain why Israel receives such a disproportionate amount of condemnation (Not that condemnation in a lot of cases isn't deserved, but the amount is puzzling) compared to other hot topics in global politics. I'm assuming it isn't anti-Semitism, since prefacing ones criticisms of Israel with "I'm not an anti-Semite, but..." is so old it's almost archaic. So what's the x-factor that makes "Israel" (I don't see people mention Likud or Netanyahu as much as this monolithic "Israel") more hated than fanatics that capture school children or leaders that use bio-weapons on their own citizens?
 
I assume that's why the far right in America loves it so.

I realize the situation is more complex. Israel has its share of skeletons in the closet, but they have historically at least made an attempt to coexist with the Arabs. I also realize that living under constant threat of a second Holocaust will take a serious toll on a civilization.

This aspect is quite important and one that I think gets erased from the conversation almost habitually. It doesn't excuse Likud's policies and behaviors, but not enough people seem to mention it as a relevant contribution to shaping the nation's psyche.
 
The debate wasn't about Israel's right to exist, it was simply does Israel violate international law and human rights, and whether it does so systematically? People overwhelmingly believed yes.
 
The debate wasn't about Israel's right to exist, it was simply does Israel violate international law and human rights, and whether it does so systematically? People overwhelmingly believed yes.

I understand what it was explicitly saying. However, you know as well as I do people regularly have two conversations at once, and with this specific topic I believe people use surface arguments to mask other statements quite frequently.

Again, most of what I see is people complaining. I don't see solutions to obstacles discussed and I certainly don't see many people applying much critical thought to the situation. The primary topics discussed are just how atrocious Israel's conduct is. I'm not disputing it, I'm just very intrigued by people's use of language and how they frame what they say. Basic discourse analysis is all.

I'm not interested in what people believe about Israel's conduct, I'm interested in precisely how they articulate it because that usually gives a good indication about where there attention is actually aimed, despite the noble intent their words might try and communicate.
 
Israel gets a lot of flak because it's a wealthy nation that behaves in a manner that is uncomfortably similar to many Western nations' imperialist past. I expect China will be pressed more and more on Tibet as it grows richer.
 
It's going to turn into South Africa unless they start moving towards the two state solution.

As for China, I would not be surprised if they go down a similar road as Japan. They're becoming increasingly nationalistic and expansionistic.
 
Israel's Netanyahu Says Palestinian State Will Not Be Established On His Watch

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6876964?utm_hp_ref=tw

Here is hoping he loses(and I can't wait to see how Fox news reacts trying to blame Obama) but it seems like he is rather clueless. He is basically losing because it seems the main issue for most people is the economy, and he is doubling down on war mongering.
 
Here is hoping he loses(and I can't wait to see how Fox news reacts trying to blame Obama) but it seems like he is rather clueless. He is basically losing because it seems the main issue for most people is the economy, and he is doubling down on war mongering.


He has A LOT of supporters who agree with him....thankfully they are in the US :p
 
Edit polls suggest he's doing just fine.
 
Edit polls suggest he's doing just fine.

Looks like both major parties got more seats then expected. Personally I think Netanyahu's declaring Arabs are voting in droves so you should go out and vote was a rather disgusting display of racism(that would be like a Republican president saying on Election day, looks like African Americans are turning out in a higher percentage then expected so you white people better go out and vote).
 
Looks like both major parties got more seats then expected. Personally I think Netanyahu's declaring Arabs are voting in droves so you should go out and vote was a rather disgusting display of racism(that would be like a Republican president saying on Election day, looks like African Americans are turning out in a higher percentage then expected so you white people better go out and vote).

Its pretty clear that he considers arabs second class citizens whether they are israeli or not. The man is a racist warmongering war criminal. Ive never wanted a foreign leader to get kicked out of office so much.
 
Yeah, I was pretty disgusted by the blatant racism displayed by Netanyahu today.
 
So... you don't exactly disagree with anything he said?

Netanyahu's alternative to this "bad deal", as he sees it, are much stronger sanctions; he did make the point of not wanting to have a physical conflict.

I agree that no deal is better than a "bad deal", and stronger sanctions can be imposed if Iran won't cooperate.

Iran has lied to UN inspectors multiple times. We already have more than enough evidence to prove Iran can't be trusted.

Is this evidence coming from the same place as Sadam's weapons of mass destruction? Not saying they are nice guys but sometime "evidence" can be found to suit certain agendas. I'm more worried about Saudi than Iran.
 
What about Kim Jong Un?

Well the only way that happens is a coup and a coup would do just as much damage if not more than what man child is currently doing.

I was referring to leaders in democratic societies that can be removed from office legally.
 
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