The Israel Situation II

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]317021[/split]

 

[craigdbfan]

Former Israeli Prime Minster Aaron Sharon dead at 85

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Sharon's body died, but his brain died 8 years ago. I remember he fell into a coma, but I was shocked he was still alive when they announced he was near death. I couldn't believe he lasted almost a decade in that state. That would have been horrible for his family.

As for his legacy, I used to think he was a rightwing extremist, but after Netanyahu, he basically seems like a dove. He started hardline, but towards the end he made major concessions, like pulling the settlements out of Gaza and then leaving Likud to form Kadima a centrist party. It's a shame he fell ill when he did, because Kadima is now irrelevent. If he had had a chance to further pursue the vision he had with Kadima, Israel might be closer to peace than it is today.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

He's also known for starting an intifada, and was never charged for his role in the war crimes in Lebanon.

 

[Feenix]

Canada's Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, recently said that anyone who critisizes Israel is anti-Semitic

I fail to see how anyone can think Israel is an innocent victim in all of this.

 

[mikey1974]

Canada's Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, recently said that anyone who critisizes Israel is anti-Semitic

I fail to see how anyone can think Israel is an innocent victim in all of this.

even beyond the point of being a victim or not, to say that by not agreeing with something that another person or country does makes you racist is absolutely ridiculous! for a world leader to come out and say it makes it that much worse.

I don't like the way the Chinese violate the human right's of their own citizens. guess that makes me anti-Asian?

 

[Pink Ranger]

Don't get me started on Stephen Harper. I will express no opinion on the Israel issue, but for this Prime Minister to so closely put our foreign policy in lock step with another nation is a violation of Canada's sovereignty.

And I don't like the fact that my tax dollars are helping pay for a contingent of homophobic fundamentalist Christian pastors to go on this trip.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What is Harper's connection to Israel? Is he an Evangelical or something?

Like most things Canadian, I know nothing about Canadian politics.

 

[Pink Ranger]

What is Harper's connection to Israel? Is he an Evangelical or something?

Like most things Canadian, I know nothing about Canadian politics.

Harper is an evangelical Christian, and there is a strong core of his governing party that are hardcore fundamentalist Christians. However, in day-to-day government terms, those representatives are mostly marginalized, and most of his most senior advisors and ministers are more Wall Street than Bible Belt.

That stated, despite being in power for quite some time, Harper hasn't done anything to roll back gay rights, abortion rights, or any of the typical pet social causes. In some ways, his government has done more to speak out on gay rights than the previous Liberal governments (particularly in the international human rights arena). In Canada, those issues are radioactive, so my guess is the only bone he can throw his fundamentalist constituents is unabashed, unquestioning support of Israel.

Although to be honest, I believe Harper really does believe what he says, and it probably is more of a political liability in Canada than a benefit.

 

[SV Fan]

Like most things Canadian, I know nothing about Canadian politics.

In Canada you have a center right party, center left party and left party, so when center left and left combine for 60% of the vote the center right squeaks through and wins the election with 40% of the vote. That's one of the downfalls I guess of a 3 party system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election,_2011

looking at this I forgot to mention the French Left party(6%) and the extreme left party(4%) that is part of the 60%

 

[Feenix]

Harper is an evangelical Christian, and there is a strong core of his governing party that are hardcore fundamentalist Christians. However, in day-to-day government terms, those representatives are mostly marginalized, and most of his most senior advisors and ministers are more Wall Street than Bible Belt.

That stated, despite being in power for quite some time, Harper hasn't done anything to roll back gay rights, abortion rights, or any of the typical pet social causes. In some ways, his government has done more to speak out on gay rights than the previous Liberal governments (particularly in the international human rights arena). In Canada, those issues are radioactive, so my guess is the only bone he can throw his fundamentalist constituents is unabashed, unquestioning support of Israel.

Although to be honest, I believe Harper really does believe what he says, and it probably is more of a political liability in Canada than a benefit.

This

 

[BestGirl]

Since we're discussing Harper and Israel...

Stephen Harper serenades Benjamin Netanyahu with "Hey Jude"

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well thanks on the crash course in Canadian politics fellas.

That's kind of funny though, that Canada ends up with a right winger because the left is so divided.

 

[Pink Ranger]

However, one could argue that a strong three-party system helps create sane conservatives (i.e. Canada and the UK). The only really nutty thing about Stephen Harper is his position on Israel (which is apparently bent over and spread-eagled).

 

[Thundercrack85]

Right, but in America that would just mean you'd have a fascist party, a moderate party, and a communist party. And nothing would get done.

...so, the status quo, basically.

 

[SV Fan]

Right, but in America that would just mean you'd have a fascist party, a moderate party, and a communist party. And nothing would get done.

That model didn't work out so well for Germany

 

[Thundercrack85]

Really, you need to get nervous when one fascist group or communist group starts bumping off other fascist or communist groups.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Right, but in America that would just mean you'd have a fascist party, a moderate party, and a communist party. And nothing would get done.

...so, the status quo, basically.

Lol, yeah, and it is important to note the seismic differences between our two countries' political ideologies. I think if they were Canadian, Bill and Hilary Clinton would be members of the Conservative Party. Our Green Party has a platform that, in many key ways, is more libertarian capitalist than the Conservative Party is. A small but significant proportion of our left-wing party (the New Democrats) are anti-gun-control, because they represent a lot of rural farmers and small towns. In fact, Canada's left-wing progressive movement largely arose from Baptist preachers in rural areas and small towns, rather than from big city intellectuals.

Yes, you can say it, it's Bizarro America up here!

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Israel seems to be a big thorn in the US's side. They keep picking fights and then want US support in many of their endeavors. They receive billions from the US yearly, and then turn right around and spend the most money in lobbying in the US government. If the Israelis don't get their way, they become a little extra shady. One example would be the USS Liberty. The Israelis attacked the ship and killed US sailors in an attempt to get the US to go to war with Egypt. Now with the Palestinians, the Israelis are just awful to them. It is almost like they feel that since the holocaust happened they have the right to mistreat the Palestinians. I feel that Israel is a corrupt and terrible government. I know this may sound awful, but the way they took land from the Palestinians and continue to kick them around would make Hitler say "I told you so".

 

[SV Fan]

Israel seems to be a big thorn in the US's side. They keep picking fights and then want US support in many of their endeavors. They receive billions from the US yearly, and then turn right around and spend the most money in lobbying in the US government. If the Israelis don't get their way, they become a little extra shady. One example would be the USS Liberty. The Israelis attacked the ship and killed US sailors in an attempt to get the US to go to war with Egypt. Now with the Palestinians, the Israelis are just awful to them. It is almost like they feel that since the holocaust happened they have the right to mistreat the Palestinians. I feel that Israel is a corrupt and terrible government. I know this may sound awful, but the way they took land from the Palestinians and continue to kick them around would make Hitler say "I told you so".

Israel is so powerful they can get a famous Christian preacher to say this

[YT]tFv5ijz6s6A[/YT]

Yeah if you don't believe in Jesus you burning in hell, well except the Jews(and by Jews I mean the country of Israel and more importantly the AIPAC Lobby), they are alright if they don't believe in Jesus.

lol

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Israel seems to be a big thorn in the US's side. They keep picking fights and then want US support in many of their endeavors. They receive billions from the US yearly, and then turn right around and spend the most money in lobbying in the US government. If the Israelis don't get their way, they become a little extra shady. One example would be the USS Liberty. The Israelis attacked the ship and killed US sailors in an attempt to get the US to go to war with Egypt. Now with the Palestinians, the Israelis are just awful to them. It is almost like they feel that since the holocaust happened they have the right to mistreat the Palestinians. I feel that Israel is a corrupt and terrible government. I know this may sound awful, but the way they took land from the Palestinians and continue to kick them around would make Hitler say "I told you so".

Yes, it does sound awful. Totally uncalled for. And you're making no distinction between the 6 million Jews from wildly diverse backgrounds and beliefs that Hitler exterminated and the orthodox neocons who make up Netanyahu's rightwing government. I'm Jewish and my grandparents lost cousins in the holocaust and I definitely don't support occupation of the West Bank or the settlements in general. You almost had some good points there, but you ruined it with that really messed up, insensitive and just bizarre Hitler dig.

 

[DeadPresident]

This argument is literally the most contentious issue anyone can discuss. The pop-politics associated with it makes it even murkier, and blatant anti-semitic propaganda that's still rife all over the world makes it a not-so-despicable notion that "The shadowy Jews are in control of everything" is a belief held by many. I mean people still quote the Protocols like they're facts

On a more practical level, I don't condone Israel's excessive use of force in a lot of cases, and their constant expansion is certainly not something that I support. That being said, if I were a small country in the middle of a region where almost every leader (Explicitly stated or implicitly believed) wants nothing more than to "wipe my people off the face of the earth" I'd also react to any and all threats with excessive force. What some people don't understand is that in the long run a single moment of weakness from Israel might result in them literally being annihilated. And by extension, the inclusion of Jews in global society would become even more tenuous.

Israel seems to be a big thorn in the US's side. They keep picking fights and then want US support in many of their endeavors. They receive billions from the US yearly, and then turn right around and spend the most money in lobbying in the US government. If the Israelis don't get their way, they become a little extra shady. One example would be the USS Liberty. The Israelis attacked the ship and killed US sailors in an attempt to get the US to go to war with Egypt. Now with the Palestinians, the Israelis are just awful to them. It is almost like they feel that since the holocaust happened they have the right to mistreat the Palestinians. I feel that Israel is a corrupt and terrible government. I know this may sound awful, but the way they took land from the Palestinians and continue to kick them around would make Hitler say "I told you so".

You don't seem to have given this any critical thought. The highlighted part is some of the most ridiculous rhetoric I've come across.

 

[hippie_hunter]

In Canada you have a center right party, center left party and left party, so when center left and left combine for 60% of the vote the center right squeaks through and wins the election with 40% of the vote. That's one of the downfalls I guess of a 3 party system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election,_2011

looking at this I forgot to mention the French Left party(6%) and the extreme left party(4%) that is part of the 60%

But it comes down to who wins in districts. It's like how in the United States where Democrats got 48.8% of the vote for the House to the Republicans' 47.6%, and yet the GOP still holds a firm majority.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

This argument is literally the most contentious issue anyone can discuss. The pop-politics associated with it makes it even murkier, and blatant anti-semitic propaganda that's still rife all over the world makes it a not-so-despicable notion that "The shadowy Jews are in control of everything" is a belief held by many. I mean people still quote the Protocols like they're facts

On a more practical level, I don't condone Israel's excessive use of force in a lot of cases, and their constant expansion is certainly not something that I support. That being said, if I were a small country in the middle of a region where almost every leader (Explicitly stated or implicitly believed) wants nothing more than to "wipe my people off the face of the earth" I'd also react to any and all threats with excessive force. What some people don't understand is that in the long run a single moment of weakness from Israel might result in them literally being annihilated. And by extension, the inclusion of Jews in global society would become even more tenuous.




You don't seem to have given this any critical thought. The highlighted part is some of the most ridiculous rhetoric I've come across.

I feel that kicking people out of their homes on a continuous basis over 70 something years as a horrible act. Only to continue to push them farther out with their settlements. I find nothing wrong with what I've said. Ridiculous rhetoric is a very blatant unnecessary attack on something you just don't understand or don't care about.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Yes, it does sound awful. Totally uncalled for. And you're making no distinction between the 6 million Jews from wildly diverse backgrounds and beliefs that Hitler exterminated and the orthodox neocons who make up Netanyahu's rightwing government. I'm Jewish and my grandparents lost cousins in the holocaust and I definitely don't support occupation of the West Bank or the settlements in general. You almost had some good points there, but you ruined it with that really messed up, insensitive and just bizarre Hitler dig.

I'm sorry you missed what I am saying. Hitler said they had to get rid of the Jews because they were taking over Germany and taking all the wealth and land from the Aryans. It by no means is a dig at Jewish heritage, but it is something that would have definitely been used against the Jewish people some 70-80 years ago. The whole communist revolution in Russia was used as a focal point against the Jews. Many of the people who created the now nation of Israel were holocaust survivors, and to think those people who went through something so traumatic are not somewhat influenced by this horrible act when forming their nation is beyond me.