🥊 The Official Boxing Thread!!! - Part 5

[InCali]

I'd say it is a combination of two factors mostly. One is yes, the amount of time spent. The sole focus on boxing technique just takes it to a different level. You also find a lot of boxers started really young, something new to MMA training.

Second, it is the techniques involved in MMA and boxing. A lot of striking techniques that work for MMA, wouldn't work for boxing and vice versa. So they don't necessarily teach them or imprint, because they don't train them the same way.

During the Floyd/Conor fight, there was a good example of this. Once Floyd started fighting on the inside, Conor kept on throwing straighter punches then Floyd, who would instead punch across his body, getting more impact on his shots. If it was an MMA fight, if you were in that close, guys would throw elbows, grab for a Muay Thai clinch, go for some underhooks, heck even pull guard. You just wouldn't just stand there punching.

Also, footwork in general is just something different. A lot of MMA fighters know how to sit on their punches, even if they don't necessary have the prettiest jab, straights or hooks. They also don't really need them, with the gloves and the ability to hit in transition. Easier to fool someone when they are worried about kicks and TDs. But they don't know how to generate the same power as a boxer, even if they are moving while throwing. Conor hit an uppercut early that looked decent, but then you see the one Floyd threw later a missed by a few inches. The power difference is apparent.

Nice Darth. Footwork in boxing is WAY underrated and WAY more difficult than it seems. If you try to use boxing footwork in an MMA of UFC fight, you are COOKED....DONE....GONE LEON. You try using your MMA/UFC footwork against an accomplished professional boxer...ditto... you'll likely fare a little less well than did Conor. It's just a different game.

Footwork sets up everything. Boxers are trained not only to attack, but avoid being hit. The way you attack a boxer is limited (compared to MMA/UFC) and you can therefore focus much more on those methods and counterattacks. It stands to reason that a boxer will be more proficient in those areas.

I wrote awhile back about re-watching the last Lomo fight and watched the entire fight only watching his feet. I know a lot of you think I'm overreacting to his skills and Doc is right that you don't look as good when you meet some ninja opponent, but this guy is a very aggressive fighter with almost impeccable footwork and has outstanding defensive skills. Lomo takes out Conor inside of 6 rounds at the outside. He knocks the living $#!t out of the Mayweather I saw.

Ahhhh....but I digress....

 

[Lobo]

I thought Pat Militech and Paul M had a nice breakdown of of the differences and why between stances and the jabs etc.

I'll say this for Connor, he has a decent jab, and talked himself into a hundred million payday, and damn it I want him to defend his title now. Though he never has to fight again after the money he just made.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

How much is the most Conor could be paid for defending his title?

I'm asking for a very rough estimate.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

How much is the most Conor could be paid for defending his title?

I'm asking for a very rough estimate.

Against Nate? Potentially 8 figures.

 

[Iceman]

I'd say it is a combination of two factors mostly. One is yes, the amount of time spent. The sole focus on boxing technique just takes it to a different level. You also find a lot of boxers started really young, something new to MMA training.

Second, it is the techniques involved in MMA and boxing. A lot of striking techniques that work for MMA, wouldn't work for boxing and vice versa. So they don't necessarily teach them or imprint, because they don't train them the same way.

During the Floyd/Conor fight, there was a good example of this. Once Floyd started fighting on the inside, Conor kept on throwing straighter punches then Floyd, who would instead punch across his body, getting more impact on his shots. If it was an MMA fight, if you were in that close, guys would throw elbows, grab for a Muay Thai clinch, go for some underhooks, heck even pull guard. You just wouldn't just stand there punching.

Also, footwork in general is just something different. A lot of MMA fighters know how to sit on their punches, even if they don't necessary have the prettiest jab, straights or hooks. They also don't really need them, with the gloves and the ability to hit in transition. Easier to fool someone when they are worried about kicks and TDs. But they don't know how to generate the same power as a boxer, even if they are moving while throwing. Conor hit an uppercut early that looked decent, but then you see the one Floyd threw later a missed by a few inches. The power difference is apparent.

Thanks a lot for that, all those points make sense. I guess starting young (which I hadn't considered at all) and sticking to boxing (not allowing your focus to get diluted so you continually reinforce only the same principles), would develop muscle memory in a different way to most of those that start MMA much later and have to be much more flexible in developing the ways they attack and what could be coming their way. Some guys I know who were doing in Muay Thai competition before moving to amateur MMA mentioned that they had to change some of the principles of their MT die to the stance making them vulnerable to takedowns. If you have to change basics like that due to what might come your way you won't be as effective in the base art as you otherwise would be and I'm sure that applies doubly so for boxing which limits you even more.

 

[B]

From what I've seen (and I'm no MMA expert), MMA fighters generally don't hit as hard or as often as a professional fighter. They don't (from what I've seen) have anything close to the punching technique that a top notch boxer has. That being said, the gloves they wear don't have the kind of padding a boxer's has. Never having been on the wrong end of an MMA punch doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. I think if an MMA guy DID hit like a top flight, hard hitting pro, his hands would probably be mush.

They don't get hit as often I don't think, but they for certain get hit as hard & harder in some cases if you count the elbow, knee & in particular the kicks.

The gloves are a massive difference in terms of the damaging capabilities of the punches.

Studies into CTE are a very good example of the different types of damage. A knockout blow is bad. Consistent headshots are worse, no matter the strength. Though in boxing, they are rather strong. This is why lineman in the NFL, the people we rarely if ever seen "knocked out" or on the injury report with concussions, are the ones talking the most damage game in, game out.

I've actually read several articles over the years both online & in newspapers regarding the brain & brain trauma as I find the subject of the brain quite interesting. Usually there's a flood of articles after a sporting head injury hits the headlines like Petr Cech's injury at Reading which I'm sure you remember being a football fan or more recently Nick Blackwell's problems after his fight with Eubank Jnr. If you're anyway half interested in the subject, I've some of the more interesting of Joe Rogan's podcasts saved in which he & his guest talk about the brain & brain damage, I can try & find the episode numbers if you want to listen to them as they are quite interesting or at least I think so anyway.

Anywho, I'm not strictly sure what you've said that I highlighted is strictly true or at least as definitive as you've worded it. I'm not saying you're wrong because I've read those articles as well regarding the accumulation of blows over the years can cause long term effects, but I've also read about how being legitimately KO'd even once is so severe it can have a lasting long term effect.

Neither Nick or Nate hit hard. You think Nate Diaz punches as hard as someone likeFloyd Mayweather, then I don't know what to tell you, other then you don't know what you are talking about.

He does not hit hard, at all. He has decent pop for MMA, but in world class punching terms? He wouldn't be a big hitter at 126.

Sport Science did a tale of the tape in the run up to the Mayweather/McGregor fight. They clocked McGregor's average punching power at 850lbs of force, Mayweather's at 814lbs of force & Nate's at 820lbs of force. The key word being average.

There have been many studies of this old chestnut about how boxers punch significantly harder than their MMA counterparts of similar weight & it's been debunked so many times I'm amazed how often it still comes up. It comes down to more than just technique, it also comes down to size, strength & speed as well. Lack of one can be compensated for by one of the other factors to make up the difference.

MMA fighters for the most part have poor chin, aided by the smaller gloves and their poor cardio.

How do you figure MMA fighters have poor chins & poor cardio?

By the way, Nate has had 30 fights. He has 4 KO victories with the baby gloves. 12 of his fights went to decision.

He's got 12 submission victories & off the top of my head I can remember at least 4 of them in which he hurt his opponent with strikes before submitting them in which he probably could have ended with strikes had he chose to.

I see everyone still talking about the main event, but can I get some love for the performance by Badou Jack? That was my favorite fight of the night, between Jack and Cleverly.

Was a quality performance from him, I'd like to see him rematch DeGale if they could agree on a weight.

What about that kid Gervonta Davis? have a lot of time for him I've seen him fight 4 or 5 times now, looked good on Saturday night, the finish was ******** but his performance was promising. Needs to sort his weight issues out or just move up. He looked drained at weigh ins & didn't even make the limit. He also missed weight in the previous fight as well at the first time of asking.

 

[InCali]

They don't get hit as often I don't think, but they for certain get hit as hard & harder in some cases if you count the elbow, knee & in particular the kicks.

The gloves are a massive difference in terms of the damaging capabilities of the punches.



I've actually read several articles over the years both online & in newspapers regarding the brain & brain trauma as I find the subject of the brain quite interesting. Usually there's a flood of articles after a sporting head injury hits the headlines like Petr Cech's injury at Reading which I'm sure you remember being a football fan or more recently Nick Blackwell's problems after his fight with Eubank Jnr. If you're anyway half interested in the subject, I've some of the more interesting of Joe Rogan's podcasts saved in which he & his guest talk about the brain & brain damage, I can try & find the episode numbers if you want to listen to them as they are quite interesting or at least I think so anyway.

Anywho, I'm not strictly sure what you've said that I highlighted is strictly true or at least as definitive as you've worded it. I'm not saying you're wrong because I've read those articles as well regarding the accumulation of blows over the years can cause long term effects, but I've also read about how being legitimately KO'd even once is so severe it can have a lasting long term effect.





Sport Science did a tale of the tape in the run up to the Mayweather/McGregor fight. They clocked McGregor's average punching power at 850lbs of force, Mayweather's at 814lbs of force & Nate's at 820lbs of force. The key word being average.

There have been many studies of this old chestnut about how boxers punch significantly harder than their MMA counterparts of similar weight & it's been debunked so many times I'm amazed how often it still comes up. It comes down to more than just technique, it also comes down to size, strength & speed as well. Lack of one can be compensated for by one of the other factors to make up the difference.



How do you figure MMA fighters have poor chins & poor cardio?



He's got 12 submission victories & off the top of my head I can remember at least 4 of them in which he hurt his opponent with strikes before submitting them in which he probably could have ended with strikes had he chose to.



Was a quality performance from him, I'd like to see him rematch DeGale if they could agree on a weight.

What about that kid Gervonta Davis? have a lot of time for him I've seen him fight 4 or 5 times now, looked good on Saturday night, the finish was ******** but his performance was promising. Needs to sort his weight issues out or just move up. He looked drained at weigh ins & didn't even make the limit. He also missed weight in the previous fight as well at the first time of asking.

Definitely thought Jack was the most impressive, but I'm not familiar with his opponent. Davis has talent. That's clear. Agree he needs to move up, but that carries its own risks. I didn't think he looked that good and his opponent just wanted out of the fight.

 

[InCali]

Honest Bob (Arum) has said (well, nothing is 100%) that Lomo and Rigo are on for 12/9.

And Honest Bob don't lie.....

 

[Fallen Angel]

Connor suffered mild traumatic brain injury during the lead up to the stoppage.


https://www.mmamania.com/2017/9/1/1...ic-brain-injury-tko-loss-floyd-mayweather-mma

former ringside physician Darragh O’Carroll, MD, who praised Byrd for putting the brain before the brawn.

From his post on TONIC:

Byrd's calculation to call a stoppage was likely not based on signs of fatigue, but rather signs of traumatic brain injury. Ataxia, or dizziness and loss of balance, is one of the hallmarks of concussion, a type of mild traumatic brain injury. Fatigue may cause sluggish and slow movements, but does not cause the imbalance and poor coordination exhibited by McGregor in the 10th round. Being wobbly, in the setting of pugilistic trauma, will always be treated as the result of head trauma and not as fatigue. To let a fighter continue on would be grossly negligent.

Who cares about brain cells when you can just let him bang, bro?

 

[Docker2.0]

Maybe it's because of boxing with 4 oz gloves? I understand UFC using them but not sure it's a good idea for boxing.

 

[Iceman]

Connor suffered mild traumatic brain injury during the lead up to the stoppage.


https://www.mmamania.com/2017/9/1/1...ic-brain-injury-tko-loss-floyd-mayweather-mma

Oh damn. Hope he's fine. No choice but to stop it in that case. Conor actually said he wanted the ref to let it go on so he could get knocked out lol. Not sure he'd be saying that if he was aware of the suspicion of the above.

 

[B]

Connor suffered mild traumatic brain injury during the lead up to the stoppage.


https://www.mmamania.com/2017/9/1/1...ic-brain-injury-tko-loss-floyd-mayweather-mma

That's not actually what that article says.

It's a clickbait story, it doesn't say he suffered a mild traumatic brain injury (otherwise known as a concussion, but calling it mild traumatic brain injury makes it sound even worse thus more clicks), it's a former ringside doctor's assessment of the referees stoppage stating that loss of balance as being one of the hallmarks of a concussion which McGregor didn't necessarily suffer & not fatigue which is complete nonsense.

I've done high intensity circuit classes before in which afterwords my legs have felt like jelly throwing my balance off making me stagger around like I've had 12 pints.. and that didn't even involve someone actively trying to knock me over.

 

[B]

Definitely thought Jack was the most impressive, but I'm not familiar with his opponent. Davis has talent. That's clear. Agree he needs to move up, but that carries its own risks. I didn't think he looked that good and his opponent just wanted out of the fight.

His opponent looked like ****. He had a good opportunity to make a name for himself fighting on that card, even if he'd lost to Davis if he'd at least gave it a go he could have earned himself some notoriety for giving it a good go.

 

[InCali]

His opponent looked like ****. He had a good opportunity to make a name for himself fighting on that card, even if he'd lost to Davis if he'd at least gave it a go he could have earned himself some notoriety for giving it a good go.

The reason I said I wasn't familiar with his opponent is because even a very good fighter can look like crap if the opponent is that much better. Not having seen much of either of them doesn't give me much of a basis for a reasonable evaluation.


Lol. I thought you were talking about Jacks opponent. Yeah. The guy Davis was fighting was clearly not very good. Even without ever having seen him before. He wanted out. Davis has talent but I don't see him as being in the same league as some others in his general weight range. He doesn't have that IT factor to my eye.

 

[Fallen Angel]

The Cruiserweight Super Series tournament begins this weekend and all 4 belt holders are participating. In 5 months time we'll have another official Undisputed Champion. Usyk vs Huck is this weekend.

Roman Gonzalez is back in action this weekend too.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Chocolatito is done. That is so sad.

 

[Docker2.0]

And this is my problem with the P4P ranking. He did nothing to be on top of the rankings but he sat there for a minute. HBO knows how to make fighters look good. Its the same thing with Crawford and Lomachenko. Crawford has fought absolutely no one but yet people are saying he's an all time great. I can guarantee that when he gets in with a top 5 WW, he will lose his 0 within 3 fights.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And this is my problem with the P4P ranking. He did nothing to be on top of the rankings but he sat there for a minute. HBO knows how to make fighters look good. Its the same thing with Crawford and Lomachenko. Crawford has fought absolutely no one but yet people are saying he's an all time great. I can guarantee that when he gets in with a top 5 WW, he will lose his 0 within 3 fights.

What do you know of the weightclasses he dominated? Who should he have fought that he didn't? Guys that small don't do much past a certain point. Once the reflexes are gone, they are done. They can't all pack on the magical weight of Manny and fight at 154. But I guess if you preferred they all roided to prove something.

it is funny that Crawford has to go above his natural weightclass to do something, because being far and away the best 140 guy in the world is apparently nothing. Being a top 10 all time 140 gut is nothing. Also, since when were Postol and Gamboa nobodies?

Using these astounding measures, Roberto Duran was never an all time great because he kept moving up and weight and losing fights. That is of course, not true and as worthwhile boxing historian will tell you he is a top 10 fighter of all time.

 

[Iron_Stark]

Damn Chocolatito got stretched. That Cuardras/Estrada fight was a damn war! LOL at Buffer for calling out the wrong name!

Fight week is upon us! Rooting for Canelo, but I'm slightly favoring GGG right now.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Lomochenko should be weary and look at what happened to Roman Gonzalez. If you keep going up in weights that your not naturally going to grow into then it could mean trouble. Fighters at bigger weights can take your punches and hit you back.

 

[P Supreme]

Damn Chocolatito got stretched. That Cuardras/Estrada fight was a damn war! LOL at Buffer for calling out the wrong name!

Fight week is upon us! Rooting for Canelo, but I'm slightly favoring GGG right now.

Canelo will eat him up on the inside with body shots GGG hasn't fought anyone IMO impressive power but against inferior Competition

His wide punches compared to Canelo more conventional punching Canelo punches will get there first

I'm taking Canelo by late round TKO on body shots

 

[Docker2.0]

Canelo will eat him up on the inside with body shots GGG hasn't fought anyone IMO impressive power but against inferior Competition

His wide punches compared to Canelo more conventional punching Canelo punches will get there first

I'm taking Canelo by late round TKO on body shots

That's how I see it as well. Canelo has really quick hands and I wouldn't be surprised if Canelo stops him either. I don't buy this "I let Jacobs hit me so I can get competition" bs. Jacobs was his toughest comp to date and it's debatable that GGG even won that fight.

 

[P Supreme]

That's how I see it as well. Canelo has really quick hands and I wouldn't be surprised if Canelo stops him either. I don't buy this "I left Jacobs hit me so I can get competition" bs. Jacobs was his toughest comp to date and it's debatable that GGG even won that fight.

exactly that's excuses first legit competition he fought and he got tested I gave him the fight cause he was the champion but no way do I believe he let that fight happen the way it did you don't play games like that in boxing
he's not Mayweather

Mayweather came out and said exactly what I said if Canelo goes to the body he will stop him and Canelo always goes to the body I don't see him not doing it with a guy who is begging to get hit down there
say what you want about that guy but he knows his boxing

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What big punchers has Canelo fought? Punchers who hit like GGG? I think this fighter is more of a toss up then a couple years ago. Canelo is better and GGG has slowed a bit. But fighting on the inside, against a guy who hooks and uppercuts with the power of GGG, well that is something else. Especially as Canelo has never fought a live body above 154. Canelo is big on walking through damage of smaller guys. Going to be hard to do with GGG, who can also go to the body very well.

I am picking GGG, but I can see either guy winning. I can also see a various amounts of ways for both guys to win, from decision, to late and early stoppages. I also think it is going to be great for however long it last.

 

[Fallen Angel]

So prediction time guy's, who ya got?

Going with Golovkin in 12 but it will be a war.