2010-2011 NBA thread: There's No Crying in Basketball

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I'm talking about his scoring threat. I don't know how much better he will get on his perimeter shooting, but that was never his game as far as his scoring is concerned. He drives to the basket. But unless he improves his free throw shooting, he's never going to inspire the kind of fear that other players that play that type of game do. And as far as his play making ability, Garnett, Allen and Pierce aren't going to last forever and that's when it'll be really interesting in seeing how good Rondo really is.
 
I'm talking about his scoring threat. I don't know how much better he will get on his perimeter shooting, but that was never his game as far as his scoring is concerned. He drives to the basket. But unless he improves his free throw shooting, he's never going to inspire the kind of fear that other players that play that type of game do. And as far as his play making ability, Garnett, Allen and Pierce aren't going to last forever and that's when it'll be really interesting in seeing how good Rondo really is.
So you attribute a players ability on the court to if he can or can't "strike fear into his opponents"? So going by that theory, I suppose Steve Nash and other small players can't be called elite because they don't strike fear into their opponents. Mambo jumbo like that sounds great, but in reality it has no effect whatsoever on the court.

I don't care about this unseen fear-factor, all I care about is if a player gets the job done or not. And I think you completely missed the point. I asked you how many points 10 assist adds up to, and the answer is 20 points. And that's not counting the extra points from the wide open 3's that he sets up Ray Allen with. It's about five less than D-Rose.

You seem to think he needs to be an exciting scoring threat to actually have an effect on the outcome of a game. I don't care if he's flashy or boring, the reality is that he gets you 20 ppg with his assist.

Would it be more interesting if he was dropping 3's at will? Yep. But he isn't. And the reality is he's getting his team 20 points a game(not counting the 10 scoring points that he averages). Whether it's in assist or scoring the basket, makes no difference at all. It's just that the media pounds it in everybody's head that if you aren't doing something in a cool and fun way to watch, it doesn't count.
 
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Hahaha, dude, Nash has a shooting game that Rondo will never have in his career, even if he improves. He's one of the best 3 point shooters of this generation, hell in the entire history of the NBA. And he is almost literally twice as good as Rondo is when it comes to hitting free throws. He's multiple threat, it's not just the one facet of the game you have to worry about when it comes to him. Driving, shooting, passing, finishing, hitting his shots from the line, all similar to Rose, multiple threats that can be employed at any time. Which is what I mean when I say "inspire fear."

I don't mean being exciting, I'm not talking about unseen intangible factors or flashy play (but a lot of that usually comes with the territory), I'm talking about if you do stop him on his way to the rim, if you do stop an easy lay in with a foul or a block or something, he's not going to make you pay by going to the line. Until he fixes that, he will never be a scoring threat in the future. And you don't have to worry about guarding him on the perimeter, he can't hurt you from out there. He doesn't "inspire fear" from out there, because he has no range. Like he doesn't "inspire fear" from driving the ball because he can't hit his free throws. Simple. His value is almost completely dependent on finding his teammates and their talents.

And like I said, in a little while Allen is not going to be around with his lightening quick release and great shooting percentages from anywhere on the court, with his just-pick-a-spot-and he'll-hit-it accuracy. Pierce isn't always going to be able beat his man and elude the defensive rotation as the years continue to pile up on his knees and Garnett is fading as well. Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, it's basically a wrap on both of their careers.

There's going to be a lot more on Rondo's shoulders when it comes to offense sooner rather than later. We're all going to see, unless he makes a drastic improvement, he's going to very easily be taken out of the game as more of the scoring weight will fall to him (or someone else not half as talented as any of the Big 3), and that's not a good thing. And the talking heads at ESPN will be mourning the "downfall of a star", when he really never was one to begin with.

An elite player can do more, should do more, than just one thing really well. Rondo is not that.
 
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Hahaha, dude, Nash has a shooting game that Rondo will never have in his career, even if he improves. He's one of the best 3 point shooters of this generation, hell in the entire history of the NBA. And he is almost literally twice as good as Rondo is when it comes to hitting free throws. He's multiple threat, it's not just the one facet of the game you have to worry about when it comes to him. Driving, shooting, passing, finishing, hitting his shots from the line, all similar to Rose, multiple threats that can be employed at any time. Which is what I mean when I say "inspire fear."

I don't mean being exciting, I'm not talking about unseen intangible factors or flashy play (but a lot of that usually comes with the territory), I'm talking about if you do stop him on his way to the rim, if you do stop an easy lay in with a foul or a block or something, he's not going to make you pay by going to the line. Until he fixes that, he will never be a scoring threat in the future. And you don't have to worry about guarding him on the perimeter, he can't hurt you from out there. He doesn't "inspire fear" from out there, because he has no range. Like he doesn't "inspire fear" from driving the ball because he can't hit his free throws. Simple. His value is almost completely dependent on finding his teammates and their talents.

And like I said, in a little while Allen is not going to be around with his lightening quick release and great shooting percentages from anywhere on the court, with his just-pick-a-spot-and he'll-hit-it accuracy. Pierce isn't always going to be able beat his man and elude the defensive rotation as the years continue to pile up on his knees and Garnett is fading as well. Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, it's basically a wrap on both of their careers.

There's going to be a lot more on Rondo's shoulders when it comes to offense sooner rather than later. We're all going to see, unless he makes a drastic improvement, he's going to very easily be taken out of the game as more of the scoring weight will fall to him (or someone else not half as talented as any of the Big 3), and that's not a good thing. And the talking heads at ESPN will be mourning the "downfall of a star", when he really never was one to begin with.

An elite player can do more, should do more, than just one thing really well. Rondo is not that.
I love how you put words in my mouth and make it out to sound like I even hinted that Rondo was anywhere near Nash as a shooter, or even a decent for that matter. So you're making the case that because Rondo's teammates will be leaving in a few years, he won't have any good teammates, thus making him a bad player? Ok, well in 20 years D-Rose will retire and the Bulls won't have him. So I guess they'll be a bad team? Who's talking about a few years from now? Maybe you because it benefits your argument, but I'm living the present. And right now and for a few more years, he will have Ray, KG and Paul Pierce to pass to. And Ray Allen isn't a good player because he can explode to the rim, it's because of his shooting. And him having bad knee's won't affect him as a player.

That's a horrible argument anyway. Yes players get old, D-Rose will and so will Boozer. And hey, they won't be good at sometime in the future. So I shouldn't pick them to win it all this year because of that? Come on.

Maybe the Celtics won't be as good in a few years, that means Rondo isn't an elite player now? Really? And tell me, how many rings has Steve Nash been able to attain? Heck, how many Finals MVP awards has he won? The answer is none. On the other hand, if the Celtics can hold on to a 4th quarter lead in game 7 last year of the Finals, and a game they were in control of until that quarter, Rondo would be a Finals MVP right now. Yet you're going to discount that because it didn't happen. Even though it easily could have gone the other way if maybe Perkins doesn't get hurt, or one bounce goes the Celtics way. But hey, Nash is a better shooter, so he must be a better player, right?

And again, you're missing the entire point that I'm making. That fear that you're talking about doesn't matter. Does he need to work on his free throw shooting, yes. But even shooting that bad from the charity stripe, he still has one more ring and championship than Steve Nash. As a starting point guard on the team, and they wouldn't have won it all with out him. Heck, they wouldn't have made it to the Finals without Rondo in 2008.

Would all of that stuff that you mentioned be nice for him to have in his game? Yep, but he still doesn't need it. But anyone that's ever watched Rondo play, would know that when he does go to the rim and gets cut off, he finds a way to kick it out and eventually set someone up for an open shot.

You say you don't rag on him for not being flashy, yet why does it matter to you how he gets the job done as long as he does it? You keep ignoring the main point/fact that I'm making. Derrick Rose is averaging 25 points a game. So is Rondo, only he does it with assist. Yet you're insisting that because he can't shoot that will somehow come into play when it really counts, yet he's already won a championship with his game right now and could have won a Finals MVP award. Does he need to win 2 before you admit that he doesn't need to be Steve Nash 2.0 to do what really matters, which is win a ring? Or have I simply misunderstood you and you're talking about winning an MVP award?

And it's laughable that you're going to tell me that Rondo doesn't have the intangibles that Nash has? Well good for Rondo. He has the best one, which is leadership.

Paint the picture anyway that you would like. But facts are facts, I can't make the stats up. You want to say D-Rose is a complete player? Rondo is averaging 5 more assist then Rose, but you say that his 10 ppg average keeps him from being as good? How about you add another 20 points onto that and give him an average of 30 ppg from his assist? Really, give me one good reason why ppg should be valued over assist?
 
I'm talking about how a player is viewed, and how in particular, Rondo is somehow seen as that same kind of "elite" by a lot of people.

What I'm not talking about is winning a championship or winning the MVP. None of that was the point. Neither was comparing Nash to Rondo, I know you didn't say they were the same I was simply explaining to you why a smaller PG like Nash is rightfully viewed as a great player, an "elite" point guard because of the multiple threats he represents whenever he's on the court, which Rondo does not have and why he shouldn't be viewed as such.

I really don't know how to make myself anymore clear on that. Those are not intangibles I'm talking about, the reasons why are completely tangible and measurable. He can't shoot the ****ing ball well unless he's right in front of the basket. That's tangible. You can see that from watching him play any game. Again, I don't know what else could be confusing you on that point.

If Rondo averages 25 or 30 points a game or whatever you want to call it, by ridiculously combining assists and the points he averages himself, then Derrick Rose averages something over 40 points a game with his assists factored in. And concerning assists, what numbers are you looking at where Rondo is averaging 5 more than Rose? He's at 11.2 and Rose is at 7.9.

It's not like I'm saying he's a horrible player, he's just overrated. I mean, come on, you think if Rose cut maybe half his scoring chances (which would hurt the team no doubt), and deferred to someone else, he couldn't average 3 more assists per game? Really, he couldn't do that? The same guy who completely reworked his shot over the course of a single offseason and went from a non-existent 3 point threat to a legit one? The same player under not even one full season with an actual NBA coach has gone from a defensive liability to pretty damn solid? He couldn't do what Rondo is doing? 3 more assists per game? Give me a break.
 
Awesome win by the Bulls last night. The Celtics made their runs, but they really never seemed to be in it. The Bulls quickly answered any run Boston put together.

I'm sure it will be different in the playoffs, but the Celtics did not look like the same team. I can't believe Perkins meant that much to them.

Rondo was taken to school last night :p ;)
 
It's not like I'm saying he's a horrible player, he's just overrated. I mean, come on, you think if Rose cut maybe half his scoring chances (which would hurt the team no doubt), and deferred to someone else, he couldn't average 3 more assists per game? Really, he couldn't do that? The same guy who completely reworked his shot over the course of a single offseason and went from a non-existent 3 point threat to a legit one? The same player under not even one full season with an actual NBA coach has gone from a defensive liability to pretty damn solid? He couldn't do what Rondo is doing? 3 more assists per game? Give me a break.
You're saying that if Rondo decided not to defer to someone else, he couldn't average 3 more points a game? Really? But that's not the point is it? Any player will get more points/assist if they decided not to give it up. Even the worst scorers in the league, so that's irrelevant. Hey, let's let Kobe take all of his teams shots and see if he gets to 60 points. I bet he will. I have this theory that point averages go up when players take more shots.

And I personally don't think it's ridiculous to count assist as points:

Derrick Rose combined assist points/scoring points: 41

Rajon Rondo combined assist points/scoring points: 32

That's assuming that all of their assist are only 2 point baskets. Truth be told, I'm doing you a favor. Because I'm not even counting the extra points that Rondo has on him from the Ray Allen 3 point shots.

Listen, I'm not saying that Rondo is a better player, but 9 points isn't that much of a discrepancy between two players. And it all adds up considering I do think that Rose is the better player, but we all know that.

Now if you're going to make the case that because Rondo isn't an elite player because he isn't good in all phases of the game, then you're also claiming that Shaquille O'Neal wasn't an elite player. Seeing as Shaq would be the all time leading scorer in points, had he not been so atrocious in his free throw shooting. Not to mention he has no jumper. So I take it you don't want him in the Hall of Fame? And don't tell me he has the rings, because you've already said that doesn't factor into a player.

The fact of the matter is that you don't need to shoot 90% from the free throw line or shoot good from the perimeter to be an elite player. You're right that Rondo isn't like a lot of other elite players, but he is what he is. And he's a walking double-double. Rose is a scoring point guard, but in terms of being a passer, he isn't on Rondo's level, or Steve Nash. The stats back that point up.

But again, if you're going to discount Rondo as an elite player just because he can't shoot the bastketball all that well, is ridiculous. He gets his points off of layups, assist and foul shots. Which yes, he isn't going 0-10 from the line a game like you make it sound.

If you don't want to give a proven point guard with a championship ring and a Finals MVP award(if Perkins isn't injured), then so be it. But the fact that he would have won the Finals MVP is because he played well enough through 6 games. He proved that he's elite when it counted.
 
You're not doing me a favor by not counting Ray Allen's 3 point prowess, you're proving my point and also, at the same time, proving the point why counting assists as points is ridiculous. It is almost completely dependent on the talent of the shooters not the talent of the passer. That's the weight of Rondo's best value: completely dependent on the skill level of his teammates. He just so happens to have 3 Hall of Famers playing with him in the starting lineup, with Ray Allen as one of the best pure shooters of all time. Not a bad problem to have, especially to pad the assist stat with.
 
Who gives a s**t? I mean really? Enough of this Frivolity, Bulls clinch #1. :up:
 
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I echo Nubes statement!:up:

Also looks like the Bulls could get to 60 wins for the first time in a looooooooonnnggg time.:up:
 
The Lakers got crushed by Portland. And if the playoffs were to start today, those two teams would play each other.
 
^ Really.... I figure the Lakers would play the Pauls and the Blazers would play the Nowitzkies.
:doh:
 
So you don't have a logical comeback? Got ya.

No it was there in that post. Everything you cut out, literally right after that passage you chose to quote. You don't have to be good in all phases of the game to be considered elite, but the phase of the game in which Rondo excels at is very much at question to where you label him as an elite player or an elite point guard. Now, again here's WHY:

The one thing that you are highlighting that supposedly puts him in or around the overall talent level of Rose or Westbrook or Deron Williams, that one phase of passing the ball, depends the most on the talent of the other players on the team and less on the talent of the player himself. And like I said, you have Ray Allen who's one of best shooters in NBA history on your team, you're going to get assists. Now add in Pierce and Garnett to spread the floor out and see how easily you can work the ball around anywhere you want. When you look at assists, you have to account for the kind of players he plays with the majority of his time on the court, you have to. It's ridiculous not to. You'd just be BS'ing yourself.

And that one phase he may or may very well not have over those other players at his position does not make him an elite player. Because it would have to be that one phase of the game that puts him over and nothing else as there just isn't anything else he does well enough that's putting him over any of those players or to the degree to where it balances anything out (like his defense).
 
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The Knicks have won 6 straight! But Amar'e sprained his ankle two games ago. This is going to seriously hurt their chances of winning a first round series.
 
At the time of my post, yes they would have.

No, at the time of your post The Lakers were set to face New Orleans in the playoffs. Lakers/Blazers was the last game of the day so nothing could have taken place to change the standings after your post.
 
No, at the time of your post The Lakers were set to face New Orleans in the playoffs. Lakers/Blazers was the last game of the day so nothing could have taken place to change the standings after your post.
No, you're wrong. My post was at the time that their game was going on. When Portland won they tied New Orleans in wins. Thus they moved ahead of them. That simple.
 
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