2011/2012 NBA Thread: The Heat is On

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

If Dwight goes to LA, it's going to be Shaq and Kobe all over again because Kobe is going to refuse to pass the ball.

I agree, there's a good a chance history will repeat itself. But Nash may change that dynamic for the better. It also means there's a strong possibility that Kobe Bean wins more titles and we hear more of this greatest ever nonsense.

 

[Docker2.0]

I honestly don't think Shaq and Nash will work because Kobe tends to hold the ball a lot. I know Bynum and Gasol will be very happy but again, people always blame the Lakers and say Kobe has no help which is f-ing laughable! They have possibly the best front line in basketball but Kobe has no help?!?! When he passes the ball, they will go far.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

That's an excuse. Kobe only averaged three more shots a game then Durant and he still had to have eight games over Kobe to win the scoring title and like I said it still came down to the last day.

No excuse, Durant scored more shooting less. And he shot 49.6%, something Kobe hasn't done in 16 seasons. If Lebron shot as much as Kobe, he would have easily won scoring (shot 53%)

Btw, Kobe (arguably the greatest ever in your words) never shot over 50% in his career. Jordan did it 6 times.

Hahaha are you seriously trying to say Kobe has been carried by other players to every title hes won?

Hahaha no, just that he's had more help over 16 seasons then most superstars could dream of.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

I honestly don't think Shaq and Nash will work because Kobe tends to hold the ball a lot. I know Bynum and Gasol will be very happy but again, people always blame the Lakers and say Kobe has no help which is f-ing laughable! They have possibly the best front line in basketball but Kobe has no help?!?! When he passes the ball, they will go far.

I agree completely.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

No excuse, Durant scored more shooting less. And he shot 49.6%, something Kobe hasn't done in 16 seasons. If Lebron shot as much as Kobe, he would have easily won scoring (shot 53%)

More excuses.

Btw, Kobe (arguably the greatest ever in your words) never shot over 50% in his career. Jordan did it 6 times.

Cool.

Hahaha no, just that he's had more help over 16 seasons then most superstars could dream of.

Really? What superstar has ever won a title with a bunch of role players? Kobe hasn't had more help then any other superstar.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I think Melo would do it in time. Now that LeBron has won a ring a lot of the scrutiny about not winning a championship will fall in Anthony's lap.

Nah that's all on Dwight now.

 

[Docker2.0]

More excuses.


Cool.


Really? What superstar has ever won a title with a bunch of role players? Kobe hasn't had more help then any other superstar.

Kobe has a bunch of role players. Your joking right?

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Yeah Dwight is a baby but the Magic should have settled this by now. The Lakers would be crazy to bring Dwight there without him signing an extension. They should have gave him to the Nets because whether people like it or not, once these players name the place they want to go, they always end up there. I honestly think Dwight doesn't want to play with Kobe and that's Bynum's problem as well. I wouldn't want to go from being the man to a glorified rebounder from all of Kobe's bricks that he throws up trying to prove he still has it.

There's no way Orlando should have accepted that Brooklyn trade. That trade was horrible for the Magic. It would have done nothing but eat up our entire cap with a bunch of mediocre players like Brook Lopez. Letting Dwight walk would be much better than that, because then we'd at least get his $20 million in cap space coming off the books. And even if I don't like the trade, at least Houston's trade is semi decent with young talent, expiring contracts, draft picks, and Houston taking some of our bad contracts like Jason Richardson.

If we made that Brooklyn trade, Orlando would have been mediocre for the next 5 seasons. There was nothing beneficial to Orlando in that deal.

Dwight may end up in Brooklyn eventually anyways, but it is not the duty of the Magic to ensure that happens, particularly when doing so is not beneficial to the franchise. Dwight is going to have a hard time getting there in free agency anyways, seeing as how much salary the Nets have tied up in Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, Brook Lopez, and Kris Humphries.

Really? What superstar has ever won a title with a bunch of role players? Kobe hasn't had more help then any other superstar.

Uh... yea he has.

He had Shaq. He had Karl Malone. He had Gary Payton. He has Pau Gasol. He had Derek Fisher.

Kobe had some real top name talent along side him during his various title runs. Every championship player is going to have "help", but Jordan had one Hall of Famer beside him, his entire run, in Scottie Pippen, someone who was largely made by playing alongside Jordan. Kobe played alongside Hall of Famers that could be the faces of their own franchises with or without Kobe, and in 3 different instances, were.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

More excuses.

How is that an excuse? I made a point and backed it up with fact, therefore I win this point.

Really? What superstar has ever won a title with a bunch of role players? Kobe hasn't had more help then any other superstar.

Where did I say a player doesn't need help? I just said Kobe has had more then his fair share. Like playing with the most dominant player in the league (in his prime) right out of the gate. That's why rings and legacy around rings are overrated imo. Because where you play and who you play with is more important in basketball then any other sport.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

Kobe has a bunch of role players. Your joking right?

That's not what I said. My question was who has won a title with just role players in response to the statement that Kobe has always had a ton of help when he won his championships. No one has won a championship with a bunch of chumps.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

He had Shaq. He had Karl Malone. He had Gary Payton. He has Pau Gasol. He had Derek Fisher.

Kobe had some real top name talent along side him during his various title runs. Every championship player is going to have "help", but Jordan had one Hall of Famer beside him, his entire run, in Scottie Pippen, someone who was largely made by playing alongside Jordan. Kobe played alongside Hall of Famers that could be the faces of their own franchises with or without Kobe, and in 3 different instances, were.

Malone, Payton, and Fisher you're serious with that? The only one on that list that wasn't "made" by playing along Kobe just like in Jordan and Pippen's case was Shaq, everyone else was made playing with Kobe. Payton and Malone both played with the Lakers out of their prime late in their careers, Fisher has never been a superstar, and Gasol was very much so made by Kobe and wouldn't have done much of note other then be a perennial All Star without Kobe.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

How is that an excuse? I made a point and backed it up with fact, therefore I win this point.

First of all the whole argument was about the scoring title, you decided to get away from that topic and bring up shooting percentage and who shot more. The difference was negligible but you ignored that and decided you had won an argument I never made. Then the whole basis of your refute to an argument I never made was "Well if X player shot more then Y he would have won the scoring title", which in itself is a laughable argument. I could just as easily say "Well if Kobe shot more then player X he would have won the scoring title".

Fact remains if Kobe didn't get injured and wasn't so old he would have strolled to the scoring title last season but because of those factors he didn't. Something that easily defeats Docker's argument that Kobe puts up bricks trying to prove he still has it. He doesn't constantly put up bricks and he definitely still has it.

Where did I say a player doesn't need help? I just said Kobe has had more then his fair share. Like playing with the most dominant player in the league (in his prime) right out of the gate. That's why rings and legacy around rings are overrated imo. Because where you play and who you play with is more important in basketball then any other sport.

No different then any other player.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

First of all the whole argument was about the scoring title, you decided to get away from that topic and bring up shooting percentage and who shot more. The difference was negligible but you ignored that and decided you had won an argument I never made. Then the whole basis of your refute to an argument I never made was "Well if X player shot more then Y he would have won the scoring title", which in itself is a laughable argument. I could just as easily say "Well if Kobe shot more then player X he would have won the scoring title".

So you think winning a scoring title by shooting the same percentage as John Wall would have been impressive? Especially when you have much more talent around you? That's why I brought up shooting percentage. But hey if you think 43% is something to write home about then have at it. I'll tell you what isn't negligible, the difference between 43% and 50%.

Fact remains if Kobe didn't get injured and wasn't so old he would have strolled to the scoring title last season but because of those factors he didn't. Something that easily defeats Docker's argument that Kobe puts up bricks trying to prove he still has it. He doesn't constantly put up bricks and he definitely still has it.

This is what is called making excuses, remember it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

No different then any other player.

Yeah it is different and has been from the start with Kobe's tenure in LA.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

So you think winning a scoring title by shooting the same percentage as John Wall would have been impressive? Especially when you have much more talent around you? That's why I brought up shooting percentage. But hey if you think 43% is something to write home about then have at it. I'll tell you what isn't negligible, the difference between 43% and 50%.

Winning a scoring title regardless of how it's done is impressive. Even more impressive in what would have been Kobe's case because of his age.

This is what is called making excuses, remember it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

No, it's not actually. That's exactly what happened, Kobe was locked in at his current pace prior to the injury and because of that he didn't win the title. This isn't a hypothetical situation where "Oh if X shot more then Y", "If he went to the basket more", etc.

Yeah it is different and has been from the start with Kobe's tenure in LA.

No, it hasn't. Kobe hasn't had anymore help then any other great player.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Winning a scoring title regardless of how it's done is impressive. Even more impressive in what would have been Kobe's case because of his age..

Completely disagree. It's impressive he still has great skills and can dominate, but winning a scoring title shooting 43% isn't impressive when you factor the team he plays on. This isn't Iverson in Philadelphia. He has greater talent around him.

No, it's not actually. That's exactly what happened, Kobe was locked in at his current pace prior to the injury and because of that he didn't win the title. This isn't a hypothetical situation where "Oh if X shot more then Y", "If he went to the basket more", etc..

It's speculation, that's all. I could easily make the same argument for LeBron the year Durant won his first scoring title. LeBron was rested by Brown the last 5 -6 games and ahead of Durant in the scoring race when this happened. Durant ended up passing him and is thus remembered as the youngest scoring champ ever. Which is fact.

No, it hasn't. Kobe hasn't had anymore help then any other great player.

Did Iverson have the help Kobe had? Did McGrady? Pick a player. Did Jordan the first 8 years of his career? Did LeBron? Did KG? Did Wade?

The only guy I can think of who has consistently had as much superior talent around him as Kobe over a long stretch of time is Tim Duncan. And much of that has to do with the brilliance of the Spurs front office. The Lakers are the crown jewel of destinations in the NBA. Most players would want to play there I'd wager. How many other nba cities can you say that for? And if Dwight lands there it is more of the same, here we go again.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

Completely disagree. It's impressive he still has great skills and can dominate, but winning a scoring title shooting 43% isn't impressive when you factor the team he plays on. This isn't Iverson in Philadelphia. He has greater talent around him.

Fair enough.

It's speculation, that's all. I could easily make the same argument for LeBron the year Durant won his first scoring title. LeBron was rested by Brown the last 5 -6 games and ahead of Durant in the scoring race when this happened. Durant ended up passing him and is thus remembered as the youngest scoring champ ever. Which is fact.

I don't look at it the same way because it was voluntary. Kobe had no choice with the injury, LeBron could have easily gone over Mike Brown and played but he was okay with it.

Did Iverson have the help Kobe had? Did McGrady? Pick a player. Did Jordan the first 8 years of his career? Did LeBron? Did KG? Did Wade?

Out of that list only Garnett, Jordan, Wade, and LeBron have rings and they all had comparable squads.

The Lakers are the crown jewel of destinations in the NBA. Most players would want to play there I'd wager. How many other nba cities can you say that for? And if Dwight lands there it is more of the same, here we go again.

Boston, New York, and Chicago.

 

[BatSpider]

Uh... yea he has.

He had Karl Malone. He had Gary Payton. He had Derek Fisher.

just stop

 

[Doc Samson]

Let me help you out here Scrandy, and bring some balance to this "debate."

1) First of all, comparing FG% between any two players IMO, is ridiculous. Especially considering Jordan played the position like a Forward, he was in the paint, on the low block and Foul line extended. Kobe shot almost 2000 more Three pointers than MJ ever thought about taking, so please, cut the crap with that. Also, if your so inclined, you can combine the FG, FT & 3Pt shooting percentages together to get the real deal, and when you do that, the divide isn't nearly as wide as you'd like to believe.

2) Secondly, Kobe having no HOF teammates is accurate. Outside of Shaq, and before Nash, who's going (in their prime) that he played with? I'll wait....

3) Lastly, especially in the Triangle, the Lakers never had a true point guard. Derek Fisher averages less assists than Kobe for his career, the Triangle tasks everyone to make decisions and handle the ball. When anyone was asked to handle it though, it was Kobe, not Fisher, not Harper, not Farmar, damn sure not Parker. It was him. I highly doubt he'll have any issue with letting Steve Nash dribble around in circles...

 

[Scrandy Randy]

1) First of all, comparing FG% between any two players IMO, is ridiculous. Especially considering Jordan played the position like a Forward, he was in the paint, on the low block and Foul line extended. Kobe shot almost 2000 more Three pointers than MJ ever thought about taking, so please, cut the crap with that. Also, if your so inclined, you can combine the FG, FT & 3Pt shooting percentages together to get the real deal, and when you do that, the divide isn't nearly as wide as you'd like to believe.

This is something I was going to get around to mentioning. Same thing applies for LeBron also.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

Lakers sign Antawn Jamison to a one year deal according to Yahoo Sports

 

[Doc Samson]

I'll take it. Lord knows the bench needs to be straightened out.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

1) First of all, comparing FG% between any two players IMO, is ridiculous. Especially considering Jordan played the position like a Forward, he was in the paint, on the low block and Foul line extended. Kobe shot almost 2000 more Three pointers than MJ ever thought about taking, so please, cut the crap with that. Also, if your so inclined, you can combine the FG, FT & 3Pt shooting percentages together to get the real deal, and when you do that, the divide isn't nearly as wide as you'd like to believe....

Then people should stop comparing them. If MJ's game was more condusive to being more efficient then so be it. But then I always thought Kobe took too many 3's at times.

2) Secondly, Kobe having no HOF teammates is accurate. Outside of Shaq, and before Nash, who's going (in their prime) that he played with? I'll wait....

So a player has to be a HOF to be considered great. A great role player, great clutch players, being great for the short term but not necessarily long term....Tell me this, aside from Duncan what star has had better players around them then Kobe? I'll say squads to avoid the hangup on this HOF thing (I'm talking over a longer period of time ).You could throw Shaq in there obviously.

3) Lastly, especially in the Triangle, the Lakers never had a true point guard. Derek Fisher averages less assists than Kobe for his career, the Triangle tasks everyone to make decisions and handle the ball. When anyone was asked to handle it though, it was Kobe, not Fisher, not Harper, not Farmar, damn sure not Parker. It was him. I highly doubt he'll have any issue with letting Steve Nash dribble around in circles...

I have no idea what the issues will be. I just wouldn't be shocked if there are any.

 

[Doc Samson]

Then people should stop comparing them. If MJ's game was more condusive to being more efficient then so be it. But then I always thought Kobe took too many 3's at times.

I agree, but for some reason when people give Kobe credit, it always comes back to that comparison. TBH, outside of mannerisms, in terms of how they walk, how they talk, they played the game itself completely different.

I've always said MJ was more efficient, but Kobe is more skilled. Phil Jackson himself said that, it's not a knock against MJ at all to say Kobe has more skills. It's not a knock against Kobe to say he's not the most efficient, particularly late in his career. The bottomline is, the results are virtually the same. Three straight trips to the Finals, two separate times with two separate teams.

So a player has to be a HOF to be considered great. A great role player, great clutch players, being great for the short term but not necessarily long term....Tell me this, aside from Duncan what star has had better players around them then Kobe? I'll say squads to avoid the hangup on this HOF thing (I'm talking over a longer period of time ).You could throw Shaq in there obviously.

The thing is, people who hate Kobe act like he's had a great roster his whole career, and it's simply not true.

The Kobe/Shaq Lakers had good role players. Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant & Ron Harper at that stage of their careers, Derek Fisher, I mean, these aren't great players in any sense. What they were, were hard-nosed & tough, and filled a role. Every team in the NBA has pieces like that. Top to Bottom, Portland, Sacramento and San Antonio were better at the time, Kobe & Shaq as a tandem is what made it special.

The mid-2000s Lakers were possibly one of the worst teams to make the Playoffs perennially. Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, are you kidding? And this was when the West was still the dominate Conference.

The Kobe/Pau Lakers IMO, is probably the best team overall Kobe ever had, aside from Bynum who was basically non-existent for either of the three Finals appearances. So where is all this talent?

The Lakers team, as constituted last season, had zero bench, no consistent outside shooting, no perimeter defensive players, a soft PF who was encouraged by the coach to become even more so, and a moody & temperamental Center who decides when he wants to play and when he doesn't.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

I agree, but for some reason when people give Kobe credit, it always comes back to that comparison. TBH, outside of mannerisms, in terms of how they walk, how they talk, they played the game itself completely different.

I've always said MJ was more efficient, but Kobe is more skilled. Phil Jackson himself said that, it's not a knock against MJ at all to say Kobe has more skills. It's not a knock against Kobe to say he's not the most efficient, particularly late in his career. The bottomline is, the results are virtually the same. Three straight trips to the Finals, two separate times with two separate teams.



The thing is, people who hate Kobe act like he's had a great roster his whole career, and it's simply not true.

The Kobe/Shaq Lakers had good role players. Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Horace Grant & Ron Harper at that stage of their careers, Derek Fisher, I mean, these aren't great players in any sense. What they were, were hard-nosed & tough, and filled a role. Every team in the NBA has pieces like that. Top to Bottom, Portland, Sacramento and San Antonio were better at the time, Kobe & Shaq as a tandem is what made it special.

The mid-2000s Lakers were possibly one of the worst teams to make the Playoffs perennially. Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, are you kidding? And this was when the West was still the dominate Conference.

The Kobe/Pau Lakers IMO, is probably the best team overall Kobe ever had, aside from Bynum who was basically non-existent for either of the three Finals appearances. So where is all this talent?

The Lakers team, as constituted last season, had zero bench, no consistent outside shooting, no perimeter defensive players, a soft PF who was encouraged by the coach to become even more so, and a moody & temperamental Center who decides when he wants to play and when he doesn't.

I agree with your assesments Doc.

I am not discrediting Kobe's greatness, believe me. But he was lucky with the cards he was dealt. Namely the most dominant center in the game. With only 5 guys on the floor, huge huge advantage. Sac. and Portland were more talented top to bottom, but the Lakers had the two best players. And in the playoffs you can ride them to your advantage. Shaq and Kobe were both young so there was no worry in terms of wearing down or injury.

As far as people talking about the greatest, I don't just go for rings because again, so much of it is luck. And Kobe has had a lot where roster is concerned imo, so I definitely take that into consideration. I think Kobe is a top 10 player and top 5 talent, so I'm not sweeping his accomplishments under the rug. But if someone calls him the greatest I will gladly challenge that assertion.

And the idea that he could get the most dominant center in his prime, for the second time in his career bugs the hell out of me, what can I say? Just when I think the little guy OKC Thunder will do their thing, here come the Lakers again with this potential game changer.

 

[Doc Samson]

I agree with your assesments Doc.

I am not discrediting Kobe's greatness, believe me. But he was lucky with the cards he was dealt. Namely the most dominant center in the game. With only 5 guys on the floor, huge huge advantage. Sac. and Portland were more talented top to bottom, but the Lakers had the two best players. And in the playoffs you can ride them to your advantage. Shaq and Kobe were both young so there was no worry in terms of wearing down or injury.

As far as people talking about the greatest, I don't just go for rings because again, so much of it is luck. And Kobe has had a lot where roster is concerned imo, so I definitely take that into consideration. I think Kobe is a top 10 player and top 5 talent, so I'm not sweeping his accomplishments under the rug. But if someone calls him the greatest I will gladly challenge that assertion.

And the idea that he could get the most dominant center in his prime, for the second time in his career bugs the hell out of me, what can I say? Just when I think the little guy OKC Thunder will do their thing, here come the Lakers again with this potential game changer.

I guess I agree, with most of your assessment. But as far as Shaq goes, it just bothers me that nobody ever tries to discredit him for never playing without another superstar perimeter player. Not just a good player, SUPERSTAR player. Ever. He never, ever was on a bad team without one and took them anywhere. Not once.

But with Shaq, it's ok. He's big, and goofy and tells jokes so it's fine. When people rate Kobe though, they view that as some sort of knock, or crutch. Besides the fact that they both averaged virtually the same amount of points during their run, the best player on the opposing team was almost always NOT a Center. Kobe, at that time, was also one of the best perimeter defenders, and when it came to the WCF, where the real NBA title was decided, Kobe annihilated the Spurs, Blazers & Kings. Every time.

On the flipside, although Jordan was a great defender himself, he also had the luxury of Scottie Pippen, who usually took the other team's best player. Just ask Magic Johnson about that. But for MJ, he "made" Pippen, lmao, and everybody else. It's borderline insane to suggest IMO, and more than a little disrespectful to a team that only lost one more game without him than they did with him, the first time he hung it up.