2012: A Monster Year? (box office predictions) - Part 2

[FilmNerdJamie]

Political statements belong in politics thread(s), folks.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I'm gonna make a final statement about people saying tdk or tdkr is not a comic book film. Anyone who says that has an apparently very limited view of what comics are or can be. If in your mind comics are only guys in bright tights punching each other than you are sorely missing out.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Agreed. TDK already took a lot of big risks (that paid off) and it's a pretty dark film itself so I think people know to expect something even worse from the final film. It's an obvious escalation which means more bodies and we've already had an important character death. I don't see this nature of TDKR turning regular people away.

Yeah, CConn does make a point. The crowd loves to root for the 'Bad Guy' nowadays, and nihilism doesn't seem to bother as many people as it use to decades ago.

Batman's journey has always been dark in the comics. He's not your typical clean-cut boyscout superhero -- Bruce is technically a 'grey' and anti-hero character in some aspects.

With TDKR, it's abundantly clear that the film is going to be the darkest installment in the CBM genre, to date. Not only will film feature socio-political and cultural themes and subtext (that'll probably cause many debates on cable TV yet again), but it's going to bring Bruce's journey to a close/end.

 

[Iceman]

I'm gonna make a final statement about people saying tdk or tdkr is not a comic book film. Anyone who says that has an apparently very limited view of what comics are or can be. If in your mind comics are only guys in bright tights punching each other than you are sorely missing out.

Agreed. Although there is a broad limitation on what is viewed as typical comic material (TDK, Watchmen etc all fall comfortably into that) and I don't have a problem with that. Otherwise comics are just a medium and absolutely anything could be written into a comic book..romantic comedies, Justin Bieber dress up day etc.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Justin Bieber dress up day etc.

Is that a horror comic?

Jk, sounds like one though.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, CConn does make a point. The crowd loves to root for the 'Bad Guy' nowadays, and nihilism doesn't seem to bother as many people as it use to decades ago.

Batman's journey has always been dark in the comics. He's not your typical clean-cut boyscout superhero -- Bruce is technically a 'grey' and anti-hero character in some aspects.

With TDKR, it's abundantly clear that the film is going to be the darkest installment in the CBM genre, to date. Not only will film feature socio-political and cultural themes and subtext (that'll probably cause many debates on cable TV yet again), but it's going to bring Bruce's journey to a close/end.

The anti-hero thing has come and gone but in its wake pretty much anything goes if it's appropriate to the material. Noone wants to see a muted Silence of The Lambs for eg. The GA prefers Batman dark, Superman as an icon and Hulk as a hero. Anyone who went into TDKR after seeing TDK and complained of it being too dark would surely be kicking only themselves, the hints are all there that things are going to get worse and come to a head.

Also I never saw Bruce Wayne/Batman as an anti-hero or at least I saw him as much more heroic than many of the other anti-heros out there. More so than someone like Wolverine or Han Solo for example. Nolan's Bruce Wayne even more than many other versions is pretty much heroic (or at least doing his best) all the way through both films through very difficult circumstances and that's why we want to see Bruce's journey, introduced expertly in Begins, come full circle and reach its natural and appropriately dark end in TDKR.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

The anti-hero thing has come and gone but in its wake pretty much anything goes if it's appropriate to the material. Noone wants to see a muted Silence of The Lambs for eg. The GA prefers Batman dark, Superman as an icon and Hulk as a hero. Anyone who went into TDKR after seeing TDK and complained of it being too dark would surely be kicking only themselves, the hints are all there that things are going to get worse and come to a head.

Also I never saw Bruce Wayne/Batman as an anti-hero or at least I saw him as much more heroic than many of the other anti-heros out there. More so than someone like Wolverine or Han Solo for example. Nolan's Bruce Wayne even more than many other versions is pretty much heroic (or at least doing his best) all the way through both films through very difficult circumstances and that's why we want to see Bruce's journey, introduced expertly in Begins, come full circle and reach its natural and appropriately dark end in TDKR.

Bruce Wayne is undoubtedly more heroic than the typical anti-hero, but several of his actions in the comics and movies tend to go hand-by-hand. Batman operates within and outside the law when necessary (a hybrid between a Ninja and Samurai). He'll do whatever it takes to protect and serve justice other than performing the acts of an executioner.

The end that's awaiting us in TDKR will probably be unconventional. That much is guaranteed. Nolan is going to be taking bigger risks with this film simply because this is the end to his interpretation of the character and his universe.

 

[Iceman]

Bruce Wayne is undoubtedly more heroic than the typical anti-hero, but several of his actions in the comics and movies tend to go hand-by-hand. Batman operates within and outside the law when necessary (a hybrid between a Ninja and Samurai). He'll do whatever it takes to protect and serve justice other than performing the acts of an executioner.

The end that's awaiting us in TDKR will probably be unconventional. That much is guaranteed. Nolan is going to be taking bigger risks with this film simply because this is the end to his interpretation of the character and his universe.

Yeah and those actions I see as the actions of a pretty pure hero who is prepared to make the hard decisions as opposed to the typical anti-hero who can act selfishly, arrogantly and be a troublemaker distracting from what he/she should be doing before always managing to come good in the end and show they have a good heart.

Unconventional for sure and if there's one thing Nolan is good at, it's resolving endings well and that is a difficult, separate skill that many good directors don't have. It's TV but anyone who watched Lost will agree with me.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It's puzzling when comic film fans demand respect yet at the same breath will decry anything that challenges convention as "not a comic book film" -- as if the medium they sprout from has only colorful, action sprinkled stories.

The comic medium houses such stories as "Batman Year One" and "All Star Superman": polar oppsites in tone and content. Is one less comic book than the other? No one would argue that the former is not a comic book. Yet here we have those that swear Nolan has abandoned comics, even though he has Batman and Catwoman flying a frickin jet through the sky (far more fantastic than anything in Year One: a comic book.)

 

[Iceman]

Is that a horror comic?

Jk, sounds like one though.

It's Nolan's final twist. Batman Vs Bane sing/rap-off with one Bieber outfit up for grabs.

It's puzzling when comic film fans demand respect yet at the same breath will decry anything that challenges convention as "not a comic book film" -- as if the medium they sprout from has only colorful, action sprinkled stories.

The comic medium houses such stories as "Batman Year One" and "All Star Superman": polar oppsites in tone and content. Is one less comic book than the other? No one would argue that the former is not a comic book. Yet here we have those that swear Nolan has abandoned comics, even though he has Batman and Catwoman flying a frickin jet through the sky (far more fantastic than anything in Year One: a comic book.)

TDK has already won a permanent respect from the GA for the potential of dark, realistic comic films. The other guys want the same level of respect for the flashier, much more improbable stuff and it's much harder won.

 

[jmc]

Eh, Nolan's shown me that superhero movies are only held back from achieving greater heights from those not willing to allow it. I often wonder whether my opinions on superhero films now would be different had he not come along. In some respects he's ruined the genre for me because I'm wanting the same type of film making mentality for other films and I don't believe we're getting it.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

I think I may be in the same boat as you jmc.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Watchmen and V for Vendetta were pretty damn good too. X2: X-Men United and Punisher '04 also deserve some love in this discussion.

While the CBM genre hasn't presented a true match for Nolan's storytelling, I believe CBMs will not regress. Similar to Donner's films, Nolan's Batflicks have inspired other studios and directors to be a bit more daring with the genre.

CBMs are no longer kids fluff or Bay-esque summer blockbusters. They're being taken more seriously nowadays (ex. First Class).

 

[jmc]

They may be taken more seriously but they are not lifting their game enough. If superheroes continue to cruise along the way they are at the moment then quite frankly they'll lose me as a viewer.

 

[dark_b]

i remember in 2003 with X2 and in 2004 with SM2 fanboys acted similar like with Nolan. they changed everything,messiah,bla bla. the formula is very simple. bring something new to the table. and like SInger and Raimi this is what Nolan did.
plus lets not forget the fact that Raimi's and Singer's movies changed studios, to give Nolan freddom to make his batman universe. fo this to happen Singer had to do what he did. a good serious comicbook movie. everything is connected and everything is very simple IMO.

 

[terry78]

I want to say Blade paved the way, but people never really give Norrington that credit.

 

[Marvin]

I want to say Blade paved the way, but people never really give Norrington that credit.

amen.

 

[Marvin]

It's puzzling when comic film fans demand respect yet at the same breath will decry anything that challenges convention as "not a comic book film" -- as if the medium they sprout from has only colorful, action sprinkled stories.

The comic medium houses such stories as "Batman Year One" and "All Star Superman": polar oppsites in tone and content. Is one less comic book than the other? No one would argue that the former is not a comic book. Yet here we have those that swear Nolan has abandoned comics, even though he has Batman and Catwoman flying a frickin jet through the sky (far more fantastic than anything in Year One: a comic book.)

It's a very simple statement. And one that will be illustrated with an example.
If WB or someone made an sincere adaptation of say a meta-less GCDP graphic novel. The general audience would not see it as a superhero film, and probably wouldn't receive it as such either. Even though by definition it is.

It's a statement on how the GA is sold things. Anything can be a comic book these days. Nothing is stopping Avatar from being received as a comic book film outside of the fact that it's an "original" concept first. The point was that compared to other more to the point material these days, Nolan's bat films are probably being seen less and less as superhero films first and probably just films with somewhat colourful characters and gadgets. Not so much different then the Bond Relm.

...yes material this strong can still be considered comic book adaptation, nothing to worry about. Like animation, comic books aren't a genre unto themselves, but in Hollywood many things tend to be seen though those goggles. I wouldn't be surprised if there is now a Vampire genre discussed among young film goers and executives alike.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I wasn't talking about the GA. They are an ignorant lot; we all know that. But many a people here -- supposedly comic saavy people -- echo the same sentiment. Which puzzles me.

 

[Iceman]

I want to say Blade paved the way, but people never really give Norrington that credit.

I see it as Blade, X-Men & Spider-man paving the way for the initial resurgence and Iron Man & TDK igniting phase 2 of a faltering movement.

 

[Marvin]

I wasn't talking about the GA. They are an ignorant lot; we all know that. But many a people here -- supposedly comic saavy people -- echo the same sentiment. Which puzzles me.

I see.
It's only because people were discussion the relationship between bo and the GA that I figured that's what you were talking about.

Otherwise I agree.

 

[Marvin]

I see it as Blade, X-Men & Spider-man paving the way for the initial resurgence and Iron Man & TDK igniting phase 2 of a faltering movement.

Blade would have existed without any of those coming into fruition. The same can't be said for any others.

 

[:eek:]

After last weekend's record-breaking box office numbers overseas, Marvel's The Avengers is now anticipated to exceed $500 million globally by Sunday. Joss Whedon's tentpole, which only debuted internationally late last week, has already raked in a whopping $218 million in its first six days. As we noted yesterday, the film shattered numerous box office records including biggest opening weekend for a superhero movie in the U.K. and the biggest opening ever for Latin American markets, including Mexico and Brazil. At this rate, The Avengers is likely to gross $350-400 million by Sunday, boosted by its premiere in China and Russia this weekend. The 3D film will open at midnight Thursday in North America, where it's expected to open upwards of $150 million, according to The Hollywood Reporter. Based on preliminary tracking, some box office observers estimate the movie will finish the weekend with a global gross north of $500 million, if not closer to $600 million.

 

[Iceman]

Blade would have existed without any of those coming into fruition. The same can't be said for any others.

So what? (I was trying to agree with you) If I make a film about a super-powered goat for no reason that noone watches, it would have existed without needing the likes of X-Men & Spider-man to come to fruition. A film merely existing without relying on outside inspiration isn't the positive here. It's what it inspires and makes possible. Otherwise are you only going to give credit to people's ancestors for their own feats of success that inspire others?

Edit: It was terry I was agreeing with.

 

[Marvin]

After last weekend's record-breaking box office numbers overseas, Marvel's The Avengers is now anticipated to exceed $500 million globally by Sunday. Joss Whedon's tentpole, which only debuted internationally late last week, has already raked in a whopping $218 million in its first six days. As we noted yesterday, the film shattered numerous box office records including biggest opening weekend for a superhero movie in the U.K. and the biggest opening ever for Latin American markets, including Mexico and Brazil. At this rate, The Avengers is likely to gross $350-400 million by Sunday, boosted by its premiere in China and Russia this weekend. The 3D film will open at midnight Thursday in North America, where it's expected to open upwards of $150 million, according to The Hollywood Reporter. Based on preliminary tracking, some box office observers estimate the movie will finish the weekend with a global gross north of $500 million, if not closer to $600 million.

I mentioned it before, but the speed at which international numbers grow is hard to compare with each new release on account of the fact that almost no two films open in the same amount of markets at the same rate. Sometimes films do china early in their wide release. Some films aren't allowed to open in China at all...etc. Of course this happens within North American releases when one looks at the amount of screens a film is shown, but that's very easy for me to accept.

Not talking anything away from any release but it's just hard to really get a handle on. Still, Avengers making surpassing Iron man numbers at any rate is great news.