6.14 Trespass - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Anybody kind of disappointed how Smallville has sort of lost focus on the whole you know, Clark being the main character thing.

Well, I mean, he was in every single scene of "Labyrinth" and most of "Crimson", but you're right in regards to looking at the season as a whole and in comparison to, say, Season 5. They've given a lot of attention to the Lex/Lana saga with a little Chloe/Jimmy sprinkled in.
 
Quick question, when Lana was in Clarks room, in the corner on the wall it looked like a Superman poster up on the wall, i couldn't get a clear look at it but it looked like Superman with his arm out straight flying. Anyone have any screen caps of the bedroom shot?
 
Well, I mean, he was in every single scene of "Labyrinth" and most of "Crimson", but you're right in regards to looking at the season as a whole and in comparison to, say, Season 5. They've given a lot of attention to the Lex/Lana saga with a little Chloe/Jimmy sprinkled in.

Yeah, and Green Arrow took a lot of the focus as well. So yeah, I'm not really complaining, just saying.
 
Anybody kind of disappointed how Smallville has sort of lost focus on the whole you know, Clark being the main character thing.

I don't think it has.. really. Although I do understand why some people might feel that way.

I think avid REALLY hit the nail on the head in a previous post:
avidreader said:
Gosh, if I had it my way, I would watch an episode like Labyrinth every week, where Clark is in every scene. However, Chloe, Lana and Lois are all main cast characters and have been with the series from the get go, Lois obviously joining in Season 4.

I think you need to give these other characters the occasional episode that focuses on them in order to give their characters some substance. If their character lacks substance then their interactions with Clark and Lex lack depth and just come off meaningless.

Strong secondary characters and multi-layered storylines only serve to enhance our primary character and the overal quality of the show.
 
Is that a no :(.

Yeah, Boyscout, that's a no. Nice of you to think of me (what exactly prompted the offer I'm still not sure), but I'm committed. Even if I weren't committed,you're far too young for me. Thanks anyway, and good luck finding someone who's right for you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to our discussion of SV...
 
i didn't read through the pages, did anyone else notice this...

According to the DC scene, clark takes the chisel back and straightens it back out, but according to the actual show, the chisel was not mentioned again, as in, it may not have been clark who took it. They may have intentional changed it so that they can play with the idea of someone else with the chisel.
 
i didn't read through the pages, did anyone else notice this...

According to the DC scene, clark takes the chisel back and straightens it back out, but according to the actual show, the chisel was not mentioned again, as in, it may not have been clark who took it. They may have intentional changed it so that they can play with the idea of someone else with the chisel.

Indeed.
 
Referencing the Troy model: "It wasn't a gift. It was a strategy tool. My father equates business with war. Take the battle of Troy. It started because two men were in love with the same woman..."
Foreshadows the distant future.

Was that not more about Clark and Whitney, rather than forshadowing the future. I doubt the writes even knew they were going t go this way.


Shouldn't Lana being showing by now, I mean she's been pregnant since November and now it's Feburary? I not too sure when it starts but its been about 3-4 months if you consider she was proably pregnant for a few weeks before finding out.
 
Was that not more about Clark and Whitney,
Yes, it totally was. :up:

rather than foreshadowing the future. I doubt the writes even knew they were going t go this way.
You kidding? The writers would have creamed their pants to know they'd still be pumping out new SV episodes seven years later LOL. I'd also venture a guess that nobody back then even had the remotest of desires to pair Lana with Lex romantically. Funny how things work out though in the end, init? Call it Kismet or a coinky dink, but the fact of the matter is, the two lines from Metamorphosis and Crimson are eerily similar. Both refer to an epic battle between two men who were in love with the same woman...

:D

Shouldn't Lana being showing by now,
Depends. Maybe she's not really pregnant? ;) :hyper: :cool:
 
Well... there's always the Star Wars films. :p

Seriously though, a show solely about Lex Luthor? No Clark Kent/Superman/Last Son of Krypton angle at all?

Pfft. No thanks. That sounds awfully boring, not to mention depressing.

Clark would play the same role he played in Lex's life in Smallville - just the show in general would be less about Clark fighting FOTW villian X, and more about Lex's experiences. I think a show like that would better play to the strengths of the Smallville crew - while they can come up with horrible, horrible plots, their characters always fine a way to keep the show watchable.

Agreed. I think he's the best live action version of Lex to date, in fact.

The only version of Lex I have seen that can compete with SV Lex is Lex: Man of Steel - both are exactly the way I want to see the character displayed.

On the surface, they all start that way. That's the point. But looks and actions are deceiving. In the Pilot, everybody thinks Clark is just a klutz around Lana LOL. By the second episode, the writers are already setting up events that wouldn't fully unfold for another five years, and characterizations about Superman and the adult Lex Luthor that are benchmarks of their bookend-like personalities. Just look at Lex's dialog in Metamorphosis...
To Lana: "While you're nursing your boyfriend back to health, ask him what he was doing before the big game."
Lex is surreptitiously trying to initiate a break-up between Lana and Whitney.
Referencing the Troy model: "It wasn't a gift. It was a strategy tool. My father equates business with war. Take the battle of Troy. It started because two men were in love with the same woman..."
Foreshadows the distant future.
To Clark about Whitney: "If you hadn't pulled him out of that truck, your problems would be solved."
This is a yin/yang of Crimson's enraged Kal declaration to Lex that if he knew the man Lex were to become, he never would have saved him from bridge.

But see, I don't see Lex's actions here as being evil, nor a product of some suppressed darkness. Lex meets this great guy who saved his life, they become friends. Friends are suppose to look out and help each other achieve their wants and dreams. Lex is trying to see Clark is happy - by trying to help him get the one thing he wants more than anything: Lana Lang. Does Lex have a different way of doing things than Clark? Yes. Does that make him a worse person? No. While I clearly see how these lines show the parallelism of the Whitney-Lana-Clark triangle, and the Lex-Lana-Clark triangle, I don't see how it shows how Lex is any worse a person.

No, they're polar opposites, but like two sides to the same coin, they're inextricably connected. More dialog...
Lex [regarding the lead box]: My mother bought it in a Kasban in Morocco. A little guy told her it was made from the armor of St. George, the patron saint of boy scouts. [He offers it to Clark]

Clark: I can't take that.

Lex: What is it about Kents and gifts? It's yours. Hand it to Lana. Tell her what happened. Trust me, once she opens it, you'll win her heart. That necklace gives you the power. All you've got to do is use it.
Lex is all about power and recognition. He uses gifts as a means to acquire power through gratitude, which become the building blocks to the high pedestal of esteem from which he wishes to be metaphorically worshiped. By contrast, Clark already HAS enormous power, yet his decision to help people by wielding it isn't out of a desire for personal glorification and adoration. In fact, when Clark later DOES wield his powers openly *as* Superman, he neither asks for or accepts gifts in return for his deeds. This behavior is the antithesis of everything that Lex Luthor is about. Clark is the better person by far. He always was, and he'll always be.

Yes - I fully understand that Clark and Lex are different people with different personalities, that is not my point. My point is that Lex Luthor is as good, if not a better person - and a much better friend than Superman is during the early years of Smallville.

Yes -power and recognition are important to Lex, but that doesn't prevent him from using these tools to benefit others. Lex saves the Talon for Lana, giving him power and recognition in the community - the end result is that Lana has something to remind her of her parents, and the community has a new business - I don't see how that is a black mark on Lex.

Lex Luthor and Superman are very powerful people, in very different ways. Lex Luthor's power comes from capitalism, money and influence. Superman's from natural physical strength and dedication. Neither is inherently good nor bad. Lex Luthor in the early days of Smallville uses his powers for good, just as Clark Kent does.

That's the point, init? Clark Kent is raised with good morals by loving parents. He stresses other people's happiness and well being before he ever acknowledges his own. He's the embodiment of altruism and selflessness. Lex was never truly loved by his father, and the morals he was taught were more about strategy and self gratification. He has no problem using nefarious methods as long as the end justifies the means.

But see, Smallville Clark Kent IS at times selfish - not selfless. He feels appalled that Lex didn't fully give up his investigations on para-normal activities of Smallville (and, by association - Clark) and hurt that Lex dare lie to him (ignoring the fact that Clark constantly lies to Lex) that he throws away years of friendship. He refused to help Lex understand these things, things that Lex feels have a direct influence on himself, because he doesn't dare risk the possibility his secret would be revealed. That is being selfish.

When he sees that Lana may die if he tells her his secret, he refuses to tell Lana. While this is an act that could be looked upon as selfless - he is taking control of Lana's life away from her. Lana clearly loved Clark, loved him enough to agree to become his wife - she understood his secret and would of understood its risks. Clark had no right to take the choice away from Lana. He couldn't bare to deal with the pain of her death being on his hands, that he would rather them both be miserable.

Now as far as Lex goes, yes he does eventually turn to using less than moral methods for what he sees as the greater good. However he does not start crossing the line until AFTER he has loss his connections with Clark. The Season 1-3 Lex would not be involved with 33.1.

Both characters influence each other - they are the legendary Naman and Sageeth after all - but one doesn't create the other. Lex is shrewd and far from being codependent. His actions have always been his own doing. That would include his decision as a boy to take the blame for his brother's murder at his mother's hand, as well as the premeditated action of taking a married woman he was interested in to a club where he *knew* she would see her unfaithful husband canoodling with other women. Clark had nothing to do with these and other actions.

Lex does have control of his own life, however he is open to influence. The two incidents you mentioned could be viewed as noble: he protects his mother, he shows a woman the true man he is about to marry. I don't see how one could use those events against Lex.

The role of influences can be seen at Lex's boarding school: when surrounded by less-than noble people, Lex becomes less-than noble. When Lex is in Smallville and is friends with Clark Kent, Lex's actions tend to be compassionate and generous - just like Mr. Kent.

As far as Clark keeping secrets from Lex or interacting with Lionel, I can see how that might piss somebody off, but it's far from being the keystone for a decent into evil. Lex's continued prying into Clark's personal life isn't a good reason for Clark to just all of a sudden give in a spill the beans. Clark has had no obligation to tell Lex anything, and in point of fact, Clark has had a very difficult time telling his closest friends his secret. Regardless, lack of disclosure of personal information is NOT a reason to go all psycho, and Lex is well on his way in that direction.

Your best friend looks at you as if you are the scum of the Earth, and took the word of a KILLER over that of your own. You don't think that doesn't have a damaging impact on someone? Clark did not OWE Lex his secret, but he DID owe Lex the chance to explain the sites he saw in Lex's hidden room - after all.

I feel to characterize Lex Luthor in any form as psycho is unfair to the character.

I don't see him as the best actor on the show, though he IS very good, and as I previously stated, I think he's the best live action Lex ever. He's not goofy. He has real problems, and he's very relatable, which grants him a pathos from the audience a campy character would never receive.

I just see Michael Rosenbaum as a scene stealer, I could say the same for Erica Durrance and John Glover - that added with the incredibly fascinating character he is given, and plus my love of his Flash in JL(U) (another show in which he has a knack of improving every scene he is in) makes me hold MR in a special place in my heart.

I think the reason I so love this character is that - for better or for worse - I see a lot of myself in Lex, or at least Smallville Lex . I am not sure if that is something I should be proud of, but it does give me a certain bond to the character.

Yes, yes it was! :D :up:
:up:
 
True he did. But he also set that whole thing up. He knew that Amanda's fiancee would be at the nightclub, that's why he took her there. Lex has always had a lust for having the upper hand with no regards to the consequences.

He forced Amanda's fiancee to be unfaithful? Sure, Lex knew exactly what Amanda would see - however I don't see how revealing the true character of a man she is about to marry is an evil act.

So you dismiss the kind of person he is because at the beginning of Smallville he was shown to be a kind of nice guy.

I believe a person can change. The more recent incidents of course would give insight to Lex's true character - however we don't really know the full extent of Lex's "wild metropolis life" pre-Smallville. The one incident that we got a chance to see showed Lex being far from the Bad Boy he was described.

With Lex its always been a battle between the way he presents himself to other people, and his true nature. In the beginning he was able to cover up his true nature, but now that he doesnt care so much about how other people view him (Clark) we see his true nature shining through.

Was he able to cover up his true nature, or had he simply found a new lease on life? I am not willing to simply dismiss anyone as a bad guy simply because that is the way he was raised. In fact we saw that Lex COULD of been a great man, however he was not willing to put Lana in a situation where she could die because of Lex's own faults. He was willing to risk not achieving the life he always wanted for the life of Lana - this was not a move he did so that he could be SEEN as a good guy.

Just because you saw Lex open up to Clark about a few things, it doesnt imply that he was totally honest with him about everything.
We're seeing that with Lana right now. He shows her the side of himself that he knows she wants to see.

The Lex that is dealing with Lana is different from the one Clark knew years ago. The only thing (we know of - but we can only speculate based on what we know) that Lex was less that honest about was Lex's investigations on the para-normal activities in Smallville. The reason Lex could not share this side with Clark is that Clark refused to be apart of it - though Lex tries time after time to work with Clark about solving such mysteries - like the cave drawings.

However, Clark also opened up to Lex about alot of things including his feelings for Lana. Clark looked to Lex as an older brother and was constantly seeking his advice on problems and issues he had in his life. Why is that because Clark chooses not to share his very big secret with everybody, does it make it his fault for the way people react to him? If they dont like it, then they can take a hike.

Clarks feelings towards Lana were hardly secret, everyone knew it. You say that Clark looked to Lex as an older brother - however if that was the truth, than Clark would of opened up with Lex - or at least considered the idea. The only time Clark even thinks about this option is after Lex already saw him knock back a car.

While I will say that Clark did not owe Lex his secret, he should of been willing to hear Lex explain his.

When did Clark push Lex away in the beginning. It was only after Clark found the secret room at the end of Season 3, that Clark started to think that maybe Lex had ulteria motives for befriending him. I'm sure if you found that one of your friends was keeping a secret room on you, you would be pretty freaked out. I also dont recall anyone holding a gun to Lex's head and telling him that he had to keep Clark around as a friend, even though he knew Clark was keeping a part of himself a secret.

But see - Clark went to that room and based his speculations on the word of Lionel Luthor - who he knew to be not only a disgusting human being, but a liar and a murder. Instead of allowing Lex to explain (because, truthfully, Lex had all the right to investigate these things that he believed had a big influence on his own life) he jumped to conclusions, and stormed out. A very hypocritical move for a man holding the biggest secret in town. Lex knew that Clark had a secret, and accepted it.

While Lex was curious - he did not allow that to destroy their friendship, because it mattered a lot to him. Clark did. Thus I have to give the "better friend" point to the vile Mr. Luthor.

Well if you also remember in that dream, it was Season 3's Slumber, Lex turned on Clark when he found out. This to me was showing us that Lex couldnt be trusted and that he would eventually turn on Clark.

Only because Clark hid it from him. Lex told him (I am going to paraphrase) "The funny thing is that if you would of just shared your secret with me, I would of accepted it and we would of been closer friends. But instead you kept this secret from me, your best friend. How can anyone trust you" or something to that extent. If I learned that a human-looking being that I thought I could trust was hiding the fact he WASN'T human, I would freak out too.

That horrible guy Clark. He accepted tickets to a rock concert and other incidentals. How many times has Clark had to go in and save Lex's sorry ass for the crap that he's got himself into because of his nefarious activities? I dont see Clark looking for thank you notes.

I never called Clark horrible, however I am not calling him a saint. He is NOT Superman - not yet. He is flawed, just as Lex. Clark shouldn't need to be thanked for saving his best friend's skin, just as Lex shouldn't needed to be thanked for the perks Lex gives him. But Clark DOES owe Lex the benefit of the doubt.

An example of this is Stripper Murder episode in Season 5 (I believe it is called Exposed?). Clark sees a pick of his dad's good friend at a strip joint. Clark instantly runs to Lex and starts accusing him of vile activities. He has no proof, but that doesn't stop him. AFTER the verbal berating from Clark, Lex STILL helps Clark find the truth by giving him the pass in. Lex had nothing to gain by Clark having the chance to clear his "uncles" name, except for the trust of Clark. Does Clark give him this trust or thanks? No.

You need to watch that episode again. Clark did not take Lionel's word, in fact he didnt trust him. It wasnt until Clark did some investigating on his own that he thought that maybe Lionel was being upfront with him. And just where would Lex be, if Clark hadnt taken that action. He'd be burnt to a crisp.

He doesn't fully trust Lionel - but he still goes. And when he sees the contents of that room, he jumps to conclusions (Lex must be investigating me) and refuses to listen to Lex's side of the argument. Lex had a good reason to be investigating those things - he saw them all as incidents having a big influence on his life. But instead of hearing Lex out, he allows himself to be manipulated by Lionel and ruin their friendship.

Lex is a victim of his own weaknesses. Clark has also been to hell and back, but you dont see him giving in to his dark side and taking the easy way out by abusing his power to get what he wants.

Lex has given in to his own worst fears and chooses to continually blame other people for his predicament.

That is because Clark has the support of a loving family and strong morals. Lex never had that - yet was still making strides in becoming a great human being. The Kents were giving him those connections that Lionel was never able, or wanted to provide. However Johnathon never fully accepted Lex - because of Lionel. Clark never fully accepted Lex - because of Lionel. And, because of Lionel, Clark ended their friendship. Suddenly all those connections he had to good a moral people are gone - and he now has to rely on his own instincts and moral compass to guide him. Given the atmosphere he was raise - you get "Evil" Lex.
 
Is this thread still about "Trespass"? Because it's suppossed to be about it. :huh:
 
Is this thread still about "Trespass"? Because it's suppossed to be about it. :huh:

Meh, threads are meant to start discussions. A little off topic debates - as long as they are thoughtful and stay above childish name calling and what not - are not a bad thing.
 
I don't know why SV insists on having each episode have it's own story. The biggest hits of tv right now, such as Lost, 24, and Heroes...all have a complete story that's told throughout the season.

It's just non-sensical trying to stuff a single plot in 40 minutes, no less doing this 20x per season. You're BOUND to have tons of filler. :huh:

Back to this idea. Wouldn't SV be great to do this format instead?
 
Back to this idea. Wouldn't SV be great to do this format instead?


Naw, I love episodic television, with a smaller arc throughout the season. I avoid shows that are just one continuous stream. Heroes is my one exception. I enjoy Heroes because it's sorta a super hero show, but will I watch it on DVD, nope not at all. Once I have watched the episode, that's it, I'm done.

I like having mostly self contained stories in episodes.

Take House for example, it's also episodic, and it trumps most shows on tv.
 
[/INDENT]
Shouldn't Lana being showing by now, I mean she's been pregnant since November and now it's Feburary? I not too sure when it starts but its been about 3-4 months if you consider she was proably pregnant for a few weeks before finding out.

Well, my wife's been pregnant since November, and she still isn't showing that much either. It really depends. Since Lana is such a petite woman, it may take longer for their bellies to "show" significantly.

Depends. Maybe she's not really pregnant? ;) :hyper: :cool:

And then there's that too.
 
i think she is pregnant i'm hoping for a birth in the style of 'alien'.
 
Naw, I love episodic television, with a smaller arc throughout the season. I avoid shows that are just one continuous stream. Heroes is my one exception. I enjoy Heroes because it's sorta a super hero show, but will I watch it on DVD, nope not at all. Once I have watched the episode, that's it, I'm done.

I like having mostly self contained stories in episodes.

Take House for example, it's also episodic, and it trumps most shows on tv.

Word on that.
 
i think she is pregnant i'm hoping for a birth in the style of 'alien'.


[BLACKOUT]They have already let slip that she isn't pregnant, but had been injected with hormones to simulate pregnancy.[/BLACKOUT]
 
^^^^^There are some of us who don't read spoilers you know.


Just to throw my two cents into the Lex Luthor debate.

Before he came to Smallville he wasn't a good guy, let’s be honest. When he opened a can of whoopa$$ on Duncan and the club Zero incident (whatever his intentions his methods were wrong) show this clearly.

Then he is sent to Smallville, out of the way, he meets Clark, Clark saves his life. This makes Lex look at himself and he doesn't really like what he sees. He thrives to become a better person, but again his methods aren't right. He just throws money at everybody, hoping that they will accept because of that. Do you really think that Clark would have liked him any less if he didn't throw concert tickets at him? Now this isn't really a black mark against the guy, he hasn't done anything wrong, it just foreshadows his path.

When it comes to secrets Lex doesn't open up to Clark like some seem to think. There's no mention of Duncan, no mention of Club Zero or any other things that Fellon helped him with, he mentions Julian but doesn't go into detail. Again not a black mark against the guy, why would he want to tell anybody about this, it would change the way people look at him, and they would look like him like an alien in their small town. Which is the same reason that Clark keeps his secret, everything else he talks to Lex about, its just that other than his alien heritage Clark doesn't have any more skeletons.

Lex turns bad for two reasons in my opinion;

1) the reason you give about Clark. Although I don't agree that Clark has done anything wrong, Lex does and this leads to his investigation and so on and so on.

2) His father, to paraphrase Clark, "You keep saying that you don't want to become your father and I truly believe that. But the more you two go at it, the more like him you become." In Season 3 all that matters to him is putting his father behind bars, screw Chloe and her family, screw my own personal safety and screw my friends if they get caught up in this.

It’s true that he didn't start going to the extreme until his relationship with Clark ended, but how did it end? He set three freaks after Clark, Lana and his family to test his powers.

Look maybe Clark could have done more, but ultimately Lex's own choices are what sent him down this road.
 

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