6.17 Combat - Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Jack O Lantern]

as I said before I dont know the guy. I happened to sit next to him at an airport bar a few years back, and he had 2 ears at the time...I think.

I doubt you would notice if he had lost a ear as his hair would be over it but he lost the ear about 12-15 years ago.

LOL that's a flawed analogy. Welling winning an Oscar would be for his acting. He really did the acting, so it's not a fictional achievement. Your wrestling championship scenario is more akin to Tom playing a bodybuilder in a movie and in the film he wins Mr. Universe, and then me citing Tom's Mr. Universe title as one of his career achievements.

I realize pro wrestlers put a lot of time and hard work into what they do, I just find it laughable when you cite one of them as being a "champion" when who wins the title or not is determined ahead of time by the Wrestling Federation based on popularity.

If you think about winning an Oscar is about popularity, just as much as it is about his talent. Same as wrestling is about your talent as a performer as much as your popularity, in fact a wrestler called DDP actually considers the world title as be the Oscar of the wrestling world If you can't get the arena to either love you or hate you then you won't become Champion. I mean there have been some guys who have been manufactured by Vince McMahon who had no business being champions just as their have been people who haven't deserved their Oscars.

The last paragraph of the extract from Shawn Michaels book explains it better than I can, here it is again

I understand winning the World Wrestling Federation Championship in sports entertainment is not the equivalent of winning the Super Bowl. But in this line of work, I don't know what else there is besides the world title that can signify that you deserve to be called the best in the business. If it isn't, at what point in our business do you get to say "Damn, good job you did it."

 

[Kaboom]

Besides Kryptonite and Magic, most things can't penetrate his skin.

But there are some Super powered characters, most of them extraterrestrial, that have been able to draw blood without the afformentioned things....one example of this is Doomsday, whom actually killed Superman.

vampires.

and you can always explain "blood" by the whole "skin tight forcefield" thinger.

 

[COMPO]

You know after seeing your caption under name its made me wonder that if Calrk was hit by Voldemort's Avada Kedavra spell would he die?

 

[COMPO]

You know after seeing your caption under name its made me wonder that if Calrk was hit by Voldemort's Avada Kedavra spell would he die?

 

[rowan sjet]

Well, it's not called the killing curse for nothing!

 

[ariellem]

...I though Promise was very low-key. But the one thrilling scene - Lex murdering Lana's doctor in the crypt - was backed by Bach's Toccata and Fugue!!! LMAO!!! I don't think Snow could have made that scene any more "jarring." In fact, it was a veritable cliché to use that music during such a scene - in a church's crypt no less. Cheese? Yup.

Not familiar enough with this piece or its representation in other media, so I don't know whether you're making a specific reference to its use elsewhere. I was thinking that the choice of music was supposed to be reminiscent of A Clockwork Orange - Alex and his ol' ultraviolence.

Would love to see Clark's eyes get red when he gets angry!

Would NOT like Avada Kedavra tested on Our Hero :-< And why is a "killing curse" so close to "abra cadabra" anyway? So that if you slip up with a joke magic trick you kill someone??? Or is the point that secret, deadly knowledge is right there under their noses yet they can't see it?

 

[AgentPat]

Not familiar enough with this piece or its representation in other media, so I don't know whether you're making a specific reference to its use elsewhere. I was thinking that the choice of music was supposed to be reminiscent of A Clockwork Orange - Alex and his ol' ultraviolence.

A Clockwork Orange used Beethoven, a composer who is often associated with "pretty" music, for lack of a better word. His Symphony #6, for example, Pastorale, evokes the peaceful bliss of a warm summer's day on an open cornfield. Check it out; it's a magnificent piece.

In ACO, the main character loves Beethoven, but he's a menace to society, having raped and killed. He undergoes an experimental procedure that makes him associate his nefarious escapades with becoming sick, which ultimately prevents him from committing the same crimes again. Kind of the opposite of a Pavlov's dogs experiment. Anyway, one of the side effects of the treatment is him becoming sick when he hears Beethoven, his favorite composer, because the procedure unintentionally played Beethoven's music in the background as he was forced to watch acts of violence.

So no... I'm not seeing the correlation with using one of Bach's toccatas in Promise to ACO, even though there was a violent act of murder committed.

Toccata and Fugue is most commonly associated with all versions of "Phantom of the Opera." The "Phantom" character plays a pipe organ in a church. If there is ANY classic piece made famous by the instrument on which it's played, it would be Bach's Toccata and Fugue, in D Minor. The low D of a pipe organ with all stops pulled out, is simply one of the hugest tones in the world. It's just insanely powerful, and uses more air to produce than you probably breathe in a month.

Anyhoo, that piece WAS cliché, but I loved it. It was probably the first time SV ever used a piece of classical music in such an overt way. Very VERY iconic and .... "note-worthy." LOL Pun intended.

 

[Serene]

FINALLY got to see this episode. Had to "acquire" it with a little help from my friends though since someone turned off my tivo when it aired here on Sat.

Anyway... I wasn't sure what to expect from this episode, but I ended up enjoying the hell out of it. That fight scene... and Clark's badass face! Contrasting that A (for Amazing) storyline with the B (for Baby ) one, made for a wonderfully balanced and interesting episode. Speaking of Lana's miscarriage, if she indeed actually had one, it was naturally very sad, but it was much more interesting to watch due to Lex's completely twisted and conflicted self. Gotta say, Michael rocked it in this episode. Actually, they all did, Tom more so in the fight scenes than the early barn ones.

I was a little disappointed that we didn't have more Lois in this episode. She was given the trademark Unconscience Before The Real Action Starts treatment that's usually reserved for Lana. Ah, well.. so it goes.

'Rasslin chick sucked. Sorry boys, but she did. She made up for her thespian (or is that thesbian? ) shortcomings by being drop dead sexy in her little schoolgirl outfit. Loved the fishnets. No, really.. I did.

omg..how is it possible that tom gets better and better looking? It boggles my mind.

 

[AgentPat]

Y'know, one of my favorite moments in Combat (next to the bullet catch and the super punch) was that little smirky smile on Clark's face just before he finished off Titan. Sheer brilliance. I'd really love to know if that was in the script.

 

[ariellem]

A Clockwork Orange used Beethoven, a composer who is often associated with "pretty" music, for lack of a better word. His Symphony #6, for example, Pastorale, evokes the peaceful bliss of a warm summer's day on an open cornfield. Check it out; it's a magnificent piece.

In ACO, the main character loves Beethoven, but he's a menace to society, having raped and killed. He undergoes an experimental procedure that makes him associate his nefarious escapades with becoming sick, which ultimately prevents him from committing the same crimes again. Kind of the opposite of a Pavlov's dogs experiment. Anyway, one of the side effects of the treatment is him becoming sick when he hears Beethoven, his favorite composer, because the procedure unintentionally played Beethoven's music in the background as he was forced to watch acts of violence.

So no... I'm not seeing the correlation with using one of Bach's toccatas in Promise to ACO, even though there was a violent act of murder committed.

Toccata and Fugue is most commonly associated with all versions of "Phantom of the Opera." The "Phantom" character plays a pipe organ in a church. If there is ANY classic piece made famous by the instrument on which it's played, it would be Bach's Toccata and Fugue, in D Minor. The low D of a pipe organ with all stops pulled out, is simply one of the hugest tones in the world. It's just insanely powerful, and uses more air to produce than you probably breathe in a month.

Anyhoo, that piece WAS cliché, but I loved it. It was probably the first time SV ever used a piece of classical music in such an overt way. Very VERY iconic and .... "note-worthy." LOL Pun intended.

I know Alex loved Beethoven. Pretty familiar with that movie, and I'm sure I've heard the Pastorale, though I wouldn't necessarily recognize it by name - don't know tons about music, classical or otherwise. But besides Alex's reprogramming, didn't they play Beethoven in the score during at least one of the scenes where Alex and his droogs were attacking people?

And isn't Bach what Lex likes to play on the piano? That's kind of what I was getting at - some of Lex's favorite, "pretty" music (as you put it) contrasted with his brutality in the scene. That blatant contrast is what reminded me of Clockwork Orange.

Did not know about Phantom of the Opera - have heard the music a couple of times; haven't ever seen a performance, nor am I familiar with the story. Have heard some music using pipe organs, but didn't follow it in such detail.

Thanks for the musical info!

 

[AgentPat]

I know Alex loved Beethoven. Pretty familiar with that movie, and I'm sure I've heard the Pastorale, though I wouldn't necessarily recognize it by name

You might. Have you ever seen Soylent Green, with Charlton Heston? It's the music Saul chose (along with the color orange) for his death.

Kinda ironic considering our conversation about classical music and A Clockwork Orange. LOL

But besides Alex's reprogramming, didn't they play Beethoven in the score during at least one of the scenes where Alex and his droogs were attacking people?

Yes, but it was the Ludovico Treatment that caused Alex to become sick from hearing the music.

And isn't Bach what Lex likes to play on the piano?

Well, he's played lots of different pieces, though the one that stands out is the one that Lillian played in Void. She said it was his favorite as a child: Franz Liszt's "Liebestraum."

That's kind of what I was getting at - some of Lex's favorite, "pretty" music (as you put it) contrasted with his brutality in the scene. That blatant contrast is what reminded me of Clockwork Orange.

But but but... the piece played FIT the scene. It wasn't "pretty." Toccata and Fugue in D Minor is DARK and BROODING and practically evil in its discord. But it's also calculating and requires great dexterity to play. Very Lex Luthoran by metaphor. In any case, it's very different from Beethoven, and even more so from Liszt. Listen to Liszt and then listen to Bach. The composers are like night and day.

Did not know about Phantom of the Opera - have heard the music a couple of times; haven't ever seen a performance, nor am I familiar with the story. Have heard some music using pipe organs, but didn't follow it in such detail.

Well, POTO just made the piece more famous to modern audiences. Kinda like what 2001: A Space Odyssey did for Richard Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and Johann Strauss' "The Blue Danube Waltz," and Apocalypse Now did for Richard Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries."

Thanks for the musical info!

Any time. Good conversation.

 

[Immortalfire]

 

[Brainiac 8]

Kryptonsite won't let ya hotlink their pics.

 

[Immortalfire]

To heck with them

 

[RakuMon]

Not familiar enough with this piece or its representation in other media, so I don't know whether you're making a specific reference to its use elsewhere. I was thinking that the choice of music was supposed to be reminiscent of A Clockwork Orange - Alex and his ol' ultraviolence.

Would love to see Clark's eyes get red when he gets angry!

Would NOT like Avada Kedavra tested on Our Hero :-< And why is a "killing curse" so close to "abra cadabra" anyway? So that if you slip up with a joke magic trick you kill someone??? Or is the point that secret, deadly knowledge is right there under their noses yet they can't see it?

I mentioned in my initial post/review of the episode that MSNBC's Countdown w/ Keith Olbermann uses this music when he does his nightly "Worst Persons in the World" segment.

 

[Red]

I am the only one who disliked the fact Clark killed someone?

 

[SamuraiSon6]

^^i thought it was a good plot point actually, he let his anger consume him and it had consequences, he felt remorseful for them, even if the actual death was accidental. it was parralleled (sp?) by lex cold blooded unremorseful murder....i thought it was done nicely

oh yea, and the conflict in how to stop the remaining phantoms without becoming a serial killer, forgot that one...

 

[dark_b]

for christ sake wha twas with the music? IMO it didnt fit.

 

[triplet]

Okay, Yahoo really blows...

I was looking for something else in my sent items folder, only to discover I hadn't "sent" Craig my review...

I was like WTF?

I remember sending it, I guess Yahoo had a hiccup or something.

*sigh*

I've sent it again and this time the email showed up in my sent items folder.

 

[Serene]

I am the only one who disliked the fact Clark killed someone?

I think the guy he killed agrees with you.



(Actually, I don't agree that Clark "killed" someone. I believe Clark was involved in a fair fight, where his opponent clearly wanted to kill him. Clark fought back, and the bad guy fell on his own knife. That's what you get for playing with knives -- and picking fights with Superman.)

 

[triplet]

I think the guy he killed agrees with you.



(Actually, I don't agree that Clark "killed" someone. I believe Clark was involved in a fair fight, where his opponent clearly wanted to kill him. Clark fought back, and the bad guy fell on his own knife. That's what you get for playing with knives -- and picking fights with Superman.)

Quoted for Truth!

 

[AgentPat]

Actually, I don't agree that Clark "killed" someone. I believe Clark was involved in a fair fight, where his opponent clearly wanted to kill him. Clark fought back, and the bad guy fell on his own knife. That's what you get for playing with knives -- and picking fights with Superman.

Bravo!

And y'know, Lois and Clark were minding their own P's and Q's too. But noooooo.... Titan just HAD to interrupt them so he could beat on Clark. Serves him right.



Uptown got its hustlers
The Bowery got its bums
And forty-second street got big Jim Walker
He a pool shootin' son of a gun
Yeah, he big and dumb as a man can come
But he stronger than a country hoss
And when the bad folks all get together at night
You know they all call big Jim 'boss' ...just because

And they say
'You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim'

 

[triplet]

Review's finally up.

http://www.kryptonsite.com/combatreview.htm

But Craig made up for taking so long to post it, after I finally figured out Yahoo didn't actually send it, by giving me my own column page:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/triplet.htm

 

[Riva]

Congrats, Trip, on getting your own page at K-site. And I really liked your review!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Well, probably the one thing that I'm not sure I could let them slide on was what Clark said in his very heartfelt and earnest speech to his mother about the fight. He said, "I wanted to kill him, Mom. I wanted to kill him with my bare hands. I've never felt rage like that before."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Turi and Al need to break out their DVD sets of the show to refresh their memories of how many times Clark had previously felt so enraged he'd come close to killing someone. I can think of at least three times he did feel exactly like that before without really breaking a sweat. ("Rogue," "Pariah," and "Vengeance" if you were wondering). But they shouldn't have to work hard to remember the scene where Clark nearly killed that mugger in last season's "Vengeance" since they wrote that episode. [/FONT]

You're right, this was one of my few pet peeves with this ep too.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Later, the fight with Titan was brutal, but it was far more complicated a fight than is normal for Smallville. Normally Clark punches, pushes or throws his opponents. The overwhelming superiority of Clark's strength is what usually wins a fight for him. This time, it wasn't that easy. Physically, Titan was Clark's equal and there was nothing easy about the battle. It was a nice touch that Clark didn't resort to using some of his more unique powers, his heat vision for example, to overcome Titan. He more than held his own with Titan and Tom made that believable. For Clark it was more physically strenuous than usual as he spun, jumped, and kicked during the fight. Tom was good at that stuff but he had Clark enjoy the contest at times, even smirking at one point, as the fight dragged on. It wasn't all brutality. After it was over, his tender look Lois at the end was sweet given his growing affection for her...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The fight between Titan and Clark was particularly well lit and photographed. The strobes flashing on and off in the smoke filled air, at times punctuating the punches the two men, and judicious use of slow motion worked to heighten the suspense until it built up to its terrific conclusion. [/FONT]

The fight was such a highlight. Total adrenalin rush.

Erica's Lois was a particular delight in this episode. Her Lois is finally truly becoming the Lois from the comics. She's feisty and pigheaded and hangs on like a pit bull to pant leg when going after a good story, even if it gets her knocked out cold while Superman saves her life. I loved her pseudo fight with Clark and the way she reacted when Lois hit Clark was hysterical. It gave the dark episode one its best much needed lighter moments.

I cant even begin to say how much I liked Lois in 'Combat.' So I wont, because you said it so well. Lol. t:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kristin Kreuk really hit this one out of the park. She's gotten so good, it's amazing. I'm not sure before this year she'd really done anything really spectacular but she's doing it almost every episode, especially in the second half of this season. In this episode, she did especially well in the scene where Lex told Lana she'd lost the baby. Lana's despair was heartbreaking. Kristin did a wonderful job portraying the devastated Lana, she seemed so distraught....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I know not everyone likes the whole baby/marriage thing with Lana and Lex, but I think it's been good for their characters development-wise but I suppose that's up to some debate. Some commentary I've seen online has said that nothing good has come out of it. I would heartily disagree. No matter how you feel about that storyline itself, it's clear that storyline been very good for Kristin as an actress. She's really moved to a new level acting-wise, which is a very good thing. [/FONT]

Couldn't agree more about Kristin. I've always thought she's done well in prior seasons too, but she's never been so good as she has this year. Consistently. Every ep she excels.

I'm so happy you picked up on just how enjoyable this ep was. I totally agree![/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[avidreader]

Review's finally up.

http://www.kryptonsite.com/combatreview.htm

But Craig made up for taking so long to post it, after I finally figured out Yahoo didn't actually send it, by giving me my own column page:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/triplet.htm

Hey congrats on the Triplet Page. That's actually a really neat feature that he's set up, I liked the layout.

Good review, as usual. Just on the teaser, I guess it must be hard when you only have 43 minutes to give the audience a teaser that is captivating enough that it makes you hang out for the end of the commercial break. A story like Combat which unfolded through a series of plot points, especially. I'm trying to think of some other way they could have given us a teaser that would have been just as exciting. We rarely get to see Clark in the teasers, so when he is in them, I find myself more than captivated. t: