A discussion about the Heroic Nature of the Hulk

[Canadian Rider]

Wha HUHN!

Don't let Dacman know or he might eat you alive ...

Wow.

Still. The conversation has been great. Lots of input from a variety of people (except the slammers) but that is cool.

That is what I was after.

The discussion about the Heroic Nature of the Hulk.

We are getting that.

t:

 

[Mad Bull]

Heh, I'm still a fan. I just don't own the stuff I know about.

 

[Cracker Jack]

Well, I won’t slag you guys for not knowing that much or having al of the Hulks comics. Your discussion has been great and vary interesting. As a long time Hulk reader, I would say that The Hulk is part of Banner and Banner is part of the Hulk. Sort of like a split personality. Both are influenced by each other. Banner sense of right and wrong or his morals are the Hulk. It’s the Hulks childlike sense or right and wrong that makes him angry and causes Banner to change into The Hulk. The Hulks limits are who Banner is. Banner wouldn’t kill anyone so the Hulk wouldn’t kill anyone. Deliberately that is. The Hulk sees things in black and white. What is right is right what is wrong is wrong. There is no gray (no pun) area in the Hulks mind. He doesn’t compromise. This is a reflection of Banners scientific mind. Everything has order. He can be swayed or tricked because of his childlike trust. But that doesn’t mean he’s a fool. If he finds out that you tricked him it’s not going to be good for you. Of corse, this is the savage Hulk that I grew up with that I’m talking about. The current Hulk is more like a cross between Savage Hulk and Gray Hulk. He seems to be a little bit more vindictive or vengeful.

As far as the Hulk being a hero. I’d say he’s more of an anti-hero. He doesn’t rush in to save the day. He’d rather be left alone. But he won’t stand by and watch injustice being done either. So he reluctantly helps out. Hope that helps out. I’ll post more later

 

[Mad Bull]

Nice post. Refreshing to have another loyal fan post their opinion in here.

 

[Cracker Jack]

No problem. It's great to see fans who want to learn more about who the Hulk is. What makes him tick.

 

[Mad Bull]

Heh, yeah. I like to think I have a pretty good hold on it. I don't own many comics, but I've done my homework on my favorite character.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

This is a great thread. i am sorry i missed most of it since posting on the first page.

The Classic Savage Hulk for me is banner's child persona. One that had sufferred so much abuse to put him in a sense of perpetual rage. As the Hulk, the persona could fight back and take out his anger on others yet he is sensitive to what is right and wrong. CR, I agree with you that he is an Anti-hero but yet at the same time, is a child who does not realise the true ramifications of their actions a hero when they do something right....The question you ask is deeper philosophically then what can be percieved at a glance.

The Hulk developped into a seperate persona but that persona is based on Banner. Without Banner, there is no mind at all and therefore only empty rage with no sense of right and wrong...just perpetual rage like a baby that has his favorite toy taken away.

The current Hulk is the Savage Hulk with the Grey hulk's cunningness and what almost seems like Banner's intelligence. He is not far from the merged Hulk before it was retconned into becoming the professor.

He has his loyalties and plays the role of reluctant hero rather then the hero looking for glory. Yet he will take his revenge on those that harm him or his freinds. He is more dangerous then ever.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Reluctant hero.

A force of nature that is ruled to a limited extent by the above noted cunningness and intelligence.

Okay so then a question.

1) Is the hulk capable of higher reasoning/intelligence enough to then "choose" not to take revenge on others? For this is often seen as a heroic quality. To rise above Vengeance.

2) If he is capable of that reasoning, to make that choice, does it make him an anti-hero if he chooses not to be the "higher/better" person but rather chooses Vengeance/revenge against those who have wronged him.

3) Does it matter in the end?

 

[Toby_Temple]

1) Is the hulk capable of higher reasoning/intelligence enough to then "choose" not to take revenge on others? For this is often seen as a heroic quality. To rise above Vengeance.

Currently, I think the answer is yes. The recent Hulk was capable of leading an army, a feat never seen or expected of him before.

2) If he is capable of that reasoning, to make that choice, does it make him an anti-hero if he chooses not to be the "higher/better" person but rather chooses Vengeance/revenge against those who have wronged him.

Again, that would be yes. The situation would be similar to Punisher.

3) Does it matter in the end?

Matter to whom? To Hulk?

 

[Ahura Mazda]

1) Is the hulk capable of higher reasoning/intelligence enough to then "choose" not to take revenge on others? For this is often seen as a heroic quality. To rise above Vengeance.

The answer depends on which incarnation. Savage Hulk has rarely shown the ability to forego revenge but the current hulk seem to have this quality or at least the capacity for it.

2) If he is capable of that reasoning, to make that choice, does it make him an anti-hero if he chooses not to be the "higher/better" person but rather chooses Vengeance/revenge against those who have wronged him.

Is that not a definition of an anti-hero? The higher/better person would be a true hero but the anti-hero will do heroic acts but first will look after himself. The anti-hero is more a neutral good character. One that does not feel under the authority of others but will act according to their own set of values in which they will do acts that can be deemed as good or bad but will always be what they considerred as justified within themselves.

Then again, I am no psychiatrist so everthing I write is based on a layman's knowledge.

3) Does it matter in the end?

Does it matter...yes as long as you neeed to classify someone into a category but as far as the story goes it should not.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Wow.

Some great posts.

So the Hulk is a force of nature who is an anti-hero like a punisher or a 'vigilante' in a sense.

It doesn't matter to us as we can see him in that way.

I guess my question was if he can be more than an anti-hero does that add or take away from him as a character? as a hero?

To state the question (s) :

1) Would the Hulk trying to be more of a 'hero' be true to his character?

2) Would this "heroic" conflict add or detract from his character/story?

3) If he became more like a tradtional "heroic" character would this make him a more interesting character?

Thanks for great dialogue guys.

This is awesome. I truly appreciate you articulating these complex ideas in such great clear ways for me. I have moved beyond just understanding him for the sake of my child, but now it is a quest for me to understand more about him and heroes in general.

Thank you for your replies and I look forward to reading more of your thougths.

PS -- I went looking for some issues, but had the wrong numbers! so I have to get them off this thread, Again!

 

[Canadian Rider]

I have an answer.
The Hulk is a hero, one of the greatest and one of the most incredible. The accounts in which he is involved are truly astounding, bewildering: they stir your soul. Saving the world, everything and everyone in it.

It would fill a book to answer why he is our hero and it's particularly difficult to explain it to a 5year old, please understand:

The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.

You have to get Hulk #110.

It would be better to get the entire context so get #109 and #111 as well.

I went looking for these ... are they out yet or a particular series?

Thank you!

 

[Irony-Man]

I've posted this in another thread concerning Ang Lee's "Hulk" but I think it is a useful contribution to this thread as well. Besides self-plagiarism is the sincerest form of intellectual narcissism).

Frankly, until I saw the movie I never actually "got" the character. I could never understand the Hulk being a "superhero". It was only after seeing the film that I understood that the Hulk really is a classic tragedy.

Banner's hubris has brought him great power but with a great price. He is being punished for thinking that he could duplicate a god's power. And like every great tragedy there is a sense of inevitable doom around the story. The Hulk cannot have a happy ending, and everyone involved in the story senses that. The best Banner can hope for is redemption for his past deeds, and in the context of the movie, the sins of his father.

After seeing the film, I started to look at the character from a different viewpoint and now he's become one of my favourites. Stan Lee said that with The Hulk he was trying to do a modern version of Frankenstein and I think he has succeeded.

The Hulk is searching for his identity and place in the world and finding only rejection, fear and hatred. In response to this he transfers his fear and hatred to Banner, his "creator". Banner, on the other hand, fears losing control to his own implulses and emotions, which really are the genesis of the Hulk and also feels he must be punished for them. He also fears the fact, and the movie brought this out very well, that he enjoys the loss of control that triggers his transformation. In Frankenstein, the monster felt that the only way he could enter society was to replace his own creator. This is the classic situation that the Hulk is in. Both the Hulk and Banner are in competition with each other, which means they are in competition with themselves. And in this competition there can only be one victor and even that victor is not the winner.

Comic books are not a genre they are a medium. Tha means you can use them to tell any type of story you want. Ang Lee understood that. He wanted to tell a story of alienation and of a man railing against his preordained fate. Look at Hulk in a cursory manner and you see what are the traditional trappings of a superhero comic. A secret identity concealing a powerful doppeganger capable of seemingly dealing with problems the original can't. But if you look deeper you see that those trappings are merely trappings. There is no secret identity in Hulk. There are two competing and antagonistic identities. Unlike other "superheroes" Banner is not, for most of the movie, trying to balance the two sides of his life, he is trying to suppress one. And the Hulk is trying to emerge and suppress Banner.

The story cannot have a happy ending. It shouldn't have a happy ending, that would be cheating. If Banner suppresses the Hulk, or vice versa, it is a tragic loss of a character, essentially a death of one of our protaganists. What we end with in the movie is a compromise between Banner and Hulk. And in the parameters of the story, a compromise is a triumph.
__________________

 

[Canadian Rider]

Wow.

Thank you.

I understand the issue of the Duality and the hatred. The tragic hero.

I think of other famous anti-heros. I always find the ones for me that are most interesting are the ones who seek the redemption and fight against their fate.

I guess that is why I asked the questions I asked about the Hulk. The Hulk persona to me is my area of intellectual enquiry.

He is the part of the Banner/Hulk Duality I struggle with and wonder about.

As I asked in my previous post ... what is he (The Hulk persona) fought against his nature to be more heroic rather than reactive.

I am not saying he has to, but rather asking Hulk fans their thoughts on that ... to see how they feel and what they think about that battle or heroic "external/internal" conflict.

Your thoughts?

 

[Mad Bull]

It's hard to say. If Hulk sees or experiences wrong, he reacts. He defends or attacks as is needed, but he is always reacting.

 

[Canadian Rider]

So Banner reacts and becomes the hulk.

The hulk is reacting to what he sees / perceives ... but he is not able to "overcome" the reactionary part as that is his essence?

Who he is?

The reactionary force of Nature ?

Closer to the answer perhaps?

 

[Mad Bull]

We can't really fight that reactionary thing, can we? Even inaction is a form of reaction. I don't know how you'd fight against something so innate in every living thing.

BTW, I can't believe you have so many posts. I predate you and I don't even have half, You stay busy.

 

[November Rain]

in short, the hulk is no more a hero than you and i, he acts on instinct, not by some moral code of good or justice.

if you prick him, he bleeds...

anyone who acts on insanity level anger is beyond the judgement of good or evil...

he is simply a force of nature like a tornado or a volcano explosion. Especially a volcano which magma may provide for very fruitable soil where plenty of crop can grow for a society and with a turn of an eye, silently poison an entire village or destroy acres of land or cause the world's largest explosion.

the hulk is beyond good or evil.

 

[Canadian Rider]

Huhn.

Okay.

I get the whole thing about anger and beyond judgment.

Wolverine also has his Beserker rage and yet he battles to contain it.

Yet the Hulk is the rage so he cannot.

He is reaction so he cannot be held to account as he does not have the choice or action or reaction.

He is by his nature the reaction.

Cool.

Thank you november et al.

More input? Great discussion lads. Thank you.

 

[November Rain]

As far as the Hulk being a hero. I’d say he’s more of an anti-hero. He doesn’t rush in to save the day. He’d rather be left alone. But he won’t stand by and watch injustice being done either. So he reluctantly helps out. Hope that helps out. I’ll post more later

this sounds like any decent human being.

I feel human beings, just like the hulk have the ability to be heroic in a given place or time but inevitable will always also try and look out for themselves as well.

he simply does what he feels he needs to at each time.

does that make him a hero? Yes at times

does that make him a superhero? hell no.

 

[Mr. Green]

Okay, read Planet Hulk. It deals with EXACTLY what you are asking about, Rider. It is not even funny...

 

[ibsisomis]

I'm with him! ^^^^

 

[ibsisomis]

yep.

 

[Cracker Jack]

this sounds like any decent human being.

I feel human beings, just like the hulk have the ability to be heroic in a given place or time but inevitable will always also try and look out for themselves as well.

he simply does what he feels he needs to at each time.

does that make him a hero? Yes at times

does that make him a superhero? hell no.

Correct. The Hulk is in no way a Superhero. The superhero rushes in to save the day. The Hulk knows that if he's the one who else can save the day. As much as he says he hates "Punny humans" he really doesn't. What he really wants is to be accepted for who he is. Unless he's threatened or someone pisses him off, The Hulk would not hurt anyone.

 

[Willowhugger]

I always viewed the idea that Bruce Banner is a hero while the Incredible Hulk is not. However, what seperates the Incredible Hulk and Bruce from say.....Doctor Curt Conners aka the Lizard is the fact that the Monster isn't terribly evil in his own right.

In Dungeons and Dragons terms, the Incredible Hulk is an amoral being. He's Neutral (and occasionally Chaotic Neutral) in his alignment. He'll do whatever it takes to defend himself and will tear through anything in his path. The Hulk is also a person whom happily helps people that are nice to him without any real prompting.

Bruce Banner wants to free of the Hulk for the most part but he's continually hounded by people and there's also the fact that the Hulk is often brought out whenever he's surrounded by people who REALLY need a good pounding. The Leader, the Abomination, Third World Dictators, and so on.

John Byrne explained the fact that sometimes innocent people do get hurt in the Hulk's rampages along with dying but he gave a really tragic explanation while Bruce Banner didn't just kill himself.

"He can't."