Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD - Episode 2.20 - "Scars"

[Uskok]

Also, SHIELD absolutely has a history of imprisoning people with powers and experimenting on them.

Done by HYDRA operatives within S.H.I.E.L.D.

Also, from the Inhuman perspective, SHIELD and Hydra are two sides of the same coin.

And one of those two sides has an Inhuman agent, Skye.

Plus, SHIELD has a weapon that can destroy the Inhumans.

Guess what, the Inhumans have a weapon that could exterminate the mankind (the Diviners), leaving only the Inhumans alive on Earth. Inhumans über alles!

 

[Heretic]

How do you know that the entire "capture and experiment on gifted people" program in SHIELD was Hydra? It was a SHIELD program, so SHIELD knew about it.

The fact is, the Inhumans could have killed off humanity centuries ago and have chosen to live in secret all these years. In their opinion, they are no threat to humanity. In their opinion, SHIELD has proven over and over and over again to be a threat to them. From the Inhuman perspective, they have been minding their own business while SHIELD keeps poking them with a stick. Whether or not they are correct hardly matters...because the characters don't realize that they are on a tv show so they are not watching the events go by the same way that you are.

 

[Chemistro]

According to Lumley, the senior agent said the village was wiped out while protecting the child. They obviously weren't protecting it from it's own father, so it had to be Hydra. So when Cal arrives all that is left is Hydra, not villagers. So Cal kills all the Hydra agents and then goes after the agents that took Skye. He tortured and killed them. In Lumley's own words, "Whatever killed the parents and those agents, was a force to be reckoned with".

But there are difficulties with that scenario, because if Hydra sent its own team - rather than a team of Hydra agents who were formally SHIELD agents, or a team combining both Hydra moles and loyal SHIELD agents -, there would be no point in sending SHIELD teams as well and/or classifying Skye as an 0-8-4.
So, that option does not seem to work.
An alternative hypothesis is that the first SHIELD team was actually a pure Hydra (but formally SHIELD) team. But that does not work, either, because in that case, the senior agent would have been Hydra, and would have had no reason to call the second team, let alone to say that the whole village died protecting the 0-8-4.
There is also the hypothesis that the first team was a mixed Hydra/SHIELD team (formally all SHIELD), and the senior agent was SHIELD, not Hydra. But when the agent called Lumley's, there was no sign of fighting within members of his team, so any Hydra members remained covert at that point. But if that is the case, who killed the villagers?
A Hydra team that got there earlier is a hypothesis, but it doesn't work in my assessment because of the reasons given above (i.e., no reason for SHIELD to be involved at all or for Skye to be classified an 0-8-4 if Hydra was going to send their own (not formally SHIELD) team).

P.S: While I enjoy speculating about fictional stories , sometimes I just have to admit there is no answer - and that is looking increasingly probable in this case -, at least not without involving unknown third parties, or unknown motivations in known parties (e.g., maybe Lumley lied for some reason unknown to us.

 

[WhiteWalker]

How do you know that the entire "capture and experiment on gifted people" program in SHIELD was Hydra? It was a SHIELD program, so SHIELD knew about it.

The fact is, the Inhumans could have killed off humanity centuries ago and have chosen to live in secret all these years. In their opinion, they are no threat to humanity. In their opinion, SHIELD has proven over and over and over again to be a threat to them. From the Inhuman perspective, they have been minding their own business while SHIELD keeps poking them with a stick. Whether or not they are correct hardly matters...because the characters don't realize that they are on a tv show so they are not watching the events go by the same way that you are.

That's interesting, I've never heard of the "SHIELD Capture & Experiment Program" hereafter referred to as SCEGP. Perhaps you could point everyone to the episode that deals with the SCEGP. I personally don't recall, but hey, I've been wrong before. Maybe you could enlighten me.

 

[WhiteWalker]

But there are difficulties with that scenario, because if Hydra sent its own team - rather than a team of Hydra agents who were formally SHIELD agents, or a team combining both Hydra moles and loyal SHIELD agents -, there would be no point in sending SHIELD teams as well and/or classifying Skye as an 0-8-4.
So, that option does not seem to work.
An alternative hypothesis is that the first SHIELD team was actually a pure Hydra (but formally SHIELD) team. But that does not work, either, because in that case, the senior agent would have been Hydra, and would have had no reason to call the second team, let alone to say that the whole village died protecting the 0-8-4.
There is also the hypothesis that the first team was a mixed Hydra/SHIELD team (formally all SHIELD), and the senior agent was SHIELD, not Hydra. But when the agent called Lumley's, there was no sign of fighting within members of his team, so any Hydra members remained covert at that point. But if that is the case, who killed the villagers?
A Hydra team that got there earlier is a hypothesis, but it doesn't work in my assessment because of the reasons given above (i.e., no reason for SHIELD to be involved at all or for Skye to be classified an 0-8-4 if Hydra was going to send their own (not formally SHIELD) team).

P.S: While I enjoy speculating about fictional stories , sometimes I just have to admit there is no answer - and that is looking increasingly probable in this case -, at least not without involving unknown third parties, or unknown motivations in known parties (e.g., maybe Lumley lied for some reason unknown to us.

True, this series is a victim of it's own discontinuity. I like to try to come up with a theory that fits the narrative and facts a they're presented. It's not an easy thing to do after the fact. There are some pretty far fetched assumptions made on this board.

 

[Heretic]

That's interesting, I've never heard of the "SHIELD Capture & Experiment Program" hereafter referred to as SCEP. Perhaps you could point everyone to the episode that deals with the SCEP. I personally don't recall, but hey, I've been wrong before. Maybe you could enlighten me.

Well...we know there is an index of powered people, right? We also know that they captured Blackout and, according to him, INCREASED his powers in experiments, and he escaped when SHIELD fell. Now, obviously, we can assume that Hydra agents were behind this...but it was happening on SHIELD bases involving SHIELD employees. We also know that Man Thing was in SHIELD custody. Cal also gathered up some gifted people who had previous interactions with SHIELD.

So...lots of episodes.

All of the things that Hydra did were ALSO things that SHIELD were doing. The difference was the Hydra wanted to use those things to dominate the world while SHIELD just thought they were the right things to do in the name of safety.

 

[Uskok]

Well...we know there is an index of powered people, right? We also know that they captured Blackout and, according to him, INCREASED his powers in experiments, and he escaped when SHIELD fell. Now, obviously, we can assume that Hydra agents were behind this...but it was happening on SHIELD bases involving SHIELD employees. We also know that Man Thing was in SHIELD custody. Cal also gathered up some gifted people who had previous interactions with SHIELD.

So...lots of episodes.

All of the things that Hydra did were ALSO things that SHIELD were doing. The difference was the Hydra wanted to use those things to dominate the world while SHIELD just thought they were the right things to do in the name of safety.

STRIKE was composed only of HYDRA agents, all three crews of the Insight Helicarriers were composed only of HYDRA agents, Baron von Strucker's division was composed only of HYDRA agents, the whole sections of S.H.I.E.L.D. were operated entirely by HYDRA. Strucker took the Chitauri Scepter right under Fury's nose without anyone noticing. HYDRA wanted to increase the powers of the gifted, not S.H.I.E.L.D.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Well...we know there is an index of powered people, right? We also know that they captured Blackout and, according to him, INCREASED his powers in experiments, and he escaped when SHIELD fell. Now, obviously, we can assume that Hydra agents were behind this...but it was happening on SHIELD bases involving SHIELD employees. We also know that Man Thing was in SHIELD custody. Cal also gathered up some gifted people who had previous interactions with SHIELD.

So...lots of episodes.

All of the things that Hydra did were ALSO things that SHIELD were doing. The difference was the Hydra wanted to use those things to dominate the world while SHIELD just thought they were the right things to do in the name of safety.

Never the less, you claim that SHIELD actually have a policy of capture and experiment. They indexed them, and as long as they behaved, they had nothing to fear from SHIELD. This is no different than society in general. There are laws! You obey the laws or there are consequences. If someone is a danger to themselves or society, steps are taken to mitigate the threat. It is done according to protocols and not just to see how someone ticks.

FALSE LOGIC
Cops carry guns.
Criminals carry guns.
Therefore all cops are criminals.

 

[cph9fa]

I don't have time for typing up theories at the moment, but for reference, here are my transcriptions of the four accounts of Hunan that I'm aware of:

Lumley to Coulson (1x12 - Seeds)

L: We were headed into the Hunan Province of China; senior agent called in an 0-8-4.
C: An object of unknown origin. We've dealt with those before.
L: He said the entire village had died, trying to protect this one. Avery and I were just fresh out of the Academy. There were five of us running the back end, until we lost communication with the first team. We went searching; found the senior agent under a bridge. He had managed to escape with a gunshot wound to the neck, but he bled out. He was still holding on to the 0-8-4. Poor thing was covered in blood. We thought she was dead too. But she was just asleep in the dead agent's arms.
C: The baby? The girl was the 0-8-4?
L: If she had powers or something, we never witnessed it. The five of us helicoptered the kid off, headed home. After we landed, we started getting crossed off.
C: Executed?
L: Tortured. Heads bashed in. And when it came down to to Avery and I, we realized the only way to keep our people and that kid from being hunted..."
C: Was to erase her from existence.

Raina to Ward (1x21 - Ragtag)

W: You know something about Skye's history?
R: I can't confirm its her, but I did hear a story about a baby girl. Years ago, a village in the Hunan Province in China was destroyed. Every man, woman, and child torn apart by monsters trying to find that baby.
W: Did the monsters kill the baby's parents?
R: No. That's what's so interesting. The baby's parents were the monsters.

Ward to Skye (2x06 - A Fractured House)

W: The people who died in the Hunan province? They weren't villagers; they were Hydra agents. They'd found you and your mother.
S: My mother? Is she alive too?
W: No. No, they killed her.
S: Why?
W: I don't know. But when your father got there, he lost it. Tore up the whole village and everyone in it.

Cal to Skye (2x10 - What They Become)

S: Tell me what happened to my Mom.
C: (beat) She was, uh... there's no easy way to say this... She worked with me at the clinic. My Chinese wasn't very good so she'd help translate. One day a group of men came in. They were looking for your mother. We tried to fight. I tried.
S: HYDRA.
C: They called themselves SHIELD. They took her; said she was dangerous. I knew better. Her gift wasn't like that. I left you with people that I trusted. I tracked your mother to Europe, but by the time I caught up with him, it was too late. Whitehall... cut her to pieces. He took her organs, her blood, and when he finished butchering her, he dumped what was left in a ditch, like she was garbage. I'm sorry. *hums "Daisy"*

 

[WhiteWalker]

I went over all this too. There are a lot of contradictions in each account. Raina's account is probably true but lacks details. Because she was relating stories told to her by others. So even though Cal & Jiaying killed a whole bunch of people, the circumstances surrounding the event are difficult to determine. I believe everything from Cal and Skye's transcript because it's a first hand account. So is Lumley's, although he was also relaying some info that he got from others.

 

[cph9fa]

The thing about Lumley's account, is that the "second team" was never called in. They were the "back end" (comms, logistsics, and such) for the "first team" (the front line field agents, if you will) -- which to me, implies they stayed behind lines, either at some kind of mobile headquarter, or whatever mobile troop transport quinjet-equivalent they had in the late 80's -- until they lost contact. Then they decided, of their own volition, to search for the first team; they were never called in. This is why I still think the front line (first team) could have been corrupt, and the ones responsible for fighting/killing the villagers. To me, there's no hint of a separate (non-SHIELD-embedded) HYDRA team anywhere.

 

[Humbugged]

The thing about Lumley's account, is that the "second team" was never called in. They were the "back end" (comms, logistsics, and such) for the "first team" (the front line field agents, if you will) -- which to me, implies they stayed behind lines, either at some kind of mobile headquarter, or whatever mobile troop transport quinjet-equivalent they had in the late 80's -- until they lost contact. Then they decided, of their own volition, to search for the first team; they were never called in. This is why I still think the front line (first team) could have been corrupt, and the ones responsible for fighting/killing the villagers. To me, there's no hint of a separate (non-SHIELD-embedded) HYDRA team anywhere.

When the went to get Whitehall from prison that team was not all HYDRA either .Otherwise no need to whisper the Hail Hydra

 

[ajmccarrell]

FALSE LOGIC
Cops carry guns.
Criminals carry guns.
Therefore all cops are criminals.

Well, the logic is wrong, even if the conclusion is right.

 

[Heretic]

Never the less, you claim that SHIELD actually have a policy of capture and experiment. They indexed them, and as long as they behaved, they had nothing to fear from SHIELD. This is no different than society in general. There are laws! You obey the laws or there are consequences. If someone is a danger to themselves or society, steps are taken to mitigate the threat. It is done according to protocols and not just to see how someone ticks.

FALSE LOGIC
Cops carry guns.
Criminals carry guns.
Therefore all cops are criminals.

So, the Inhumans should let SHIELD capture and index them? Because THAT sounds safe, given SHIELDs crap history?

Again, you are looking at it from SHIELDs perspective because their name is in the title of the show. If the show were following the Inhumans and all we knew about SHIELD was what they know about them, then you would have a different viewpoint.

 

[Heretic]

STRIKE was composed only of HYDRA agents, all three crews of the Insight Helicarriers were composed only of HYDRA agents, Baron von Strucker's division was composed only of HYDRA agents, the whole sections of S.H.I.E.L.D. were operated entirely by HYDRA. Strucker took the Chitauri Scepter right under Fury's nose without anyone noticing. HYDRA wanted to increase the powers of the gifted, not S.H.I.E.L.D.

The reason why Strucker was able to take the scepter right out from Fury's nose is because Hydra agents could come and go as they pleased within SHIELD facilities. Hydra had access to the WMDs that SHIELD had been pretending to destroy but were actually storing in a base.

Coulson and Fury knew about these things. They were SHIELD programs. The fact that some people in SHIELD were also in Hydra and took the programs in SLIGHTLY different directions than what Coulson or Fury would do is irrelevant.

 

[WhiteWalker]

The thing about Lumley's account, is that the "second team" was never called in. They were the "back end" (comms, logistsics, and such) for the "first team" (the front line field agents, if you will) -- which to me, implies they stayed behind lines, either at some kind of mobile headquarter, or whatever mobile troop transport quinjet-equivalent they had in the late 80's -- until they lost contact. Then they decided, of their own volition, to search for the first team; they were never called in. This is why I still think the front line (first team) could have been corrupt, and the ones responsible for fighting/killing the villagers. To me, there's no hint of a separate (non-SHIELD-embedded) HYDRA team anywhere.

I agree with everything you've said. It fits with the facts on hand, however I'm leaving room for the supposition that at least some of the villagers were Hydra. I say this simply because Hydra/SHIELD agents had already visited the village to get Jiaying. Their intel had to come from someone in the village. We also no that there was some kind of firefight. And since it wouldn't take much for armed combat trained agents to take over a village. I have to at least entertain the notion that some of the villagers were well armed. That doesn't sound like a typical Chinese village to me. In that scenario, all of the agents responding to the 0-8-4 could very possibly have been legitimate SHIELD agents.

 

[WhiteWalker]

So, the Inhumans should let SHIELD capture and index them? Because THAT sounds safe, given SHIELDs crap history?

Again, you are looking at it from SHIELDs perspective because their name is in the title of the show. If the show were following the Inhumans and all we knew about SHIELD was what they know about them, then you would have a different viewpoint.

No, I'm looking at it from the worlds perspective. We live in a world full of dangers and these dangers help shape the world we live in. Every minority in the world has a story to tell about injustices. Also, I already have two viewpoints. Skye's viewpoint is that we can live together in peace even if we're on the index. And Jiaying viewpoint, SHIELD must be destroyed.

 

[Chemistro]

The thing about Lumley's account, is that the "second team" was never called in. They were the "back end" (comms, logistsics, and such) for the "first team" (the front line field agents, if you will) -- which to me, implies they stayed behind lines, either at some kind of mobile headquarter, or whatever mobile troop transport quinjet-equivalent they had in the late 80's -- until they lost contact. Then they decided, of their own volition, to search for the first team; they were never called in. This is why I still think the front line (first team) could have been corrupt, and the ones responsible for fighting/killing the villagers. To me, there's no hint of a separate (non-SHIELD-embedded) HYDRA team anywhere.

But according to Lumley, the senior agent - i.e., the leader of the first team - called in an 0-8-4, and said an entire village had died trying to protect it.
If he and his own team were Hydra and they had just slaughtered the whole village, why would they call in an 0-8-4, and tell the other team that the whole village had been killed protecting it? It would be much simpler to take Skye and leave, without saying a word - and without involving any other team.

A further difficulty is: suppose the first team is a Hydra team. They kill all of the villagers. Instead of taking Skye and leaving without saying a word, then they contact a loyal SHIELD team for some unknown reason (but why?) and tell them that all of the villagers were killed trying to protect an 0-8-4 - of course without mentioning that they are the killers.

But then, someone kills off the whole Hydra team - a team that just managed to wipe out an entire village. But who does that? At least, one of the killings is done with a gun. I guess Jiaying and Cal are the candidates, but it's the two of them vs. a Hydra team that just took out all of the villagers.

 

[Heretic]

No, I'm looking at it from the worlds perspective. We live in a world full of dangers and these dangers help shape the world we live in. Every minority in the world has a story to tell about injustices. Also, I already have two viewpoints. Skye's viewpoint is that we can live together in peace even if we're on the index. And Jiaying viewpoint, SHIELD must be destroyed.

Skye is hardly a spokesperson for what is best for the Inhumans.

The Inhuman position is clear...it is not safe for them to allow themselves to cataloged and experimented on. The world's perspective? What good is that? We're talking about what the Inhumans would feel is best for THEM, and they are mostly outside of the "world" we know.

Again, you're unable to place yourself in the mind of the people we are talking about, and assuming that they should just agree with the perspective of the people whose group name is in the title of the show.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Skye is hardly a spokesperson for what is best for the Inhumans.

The Inhuman position is clear...it is not safe for them to allow themselves to cataloged and experimented on. The world's perspective? What good is that? We're talking about what the Inhumans would feel is best for THEM, and they are mostly outside of the "world" we know.

Again, you're unable to place yourself in the mind of the people we are talking about, and assuming that they should just agree with the perspective of the people whose group name is in the title of the show.

Could not the same be said for you?

 

[Heretic]

Could not the same be said for you?

Um...well...yeah...and THATS THE POINT. This discussion was about the position of the Inhumans...so it is NECESSARY to try to enter the mindset of the Inhumans. It is incorrect to stand outside of The Inhumans, knowing things they don't know, knowing that the stars of the show are in SHIELD, and THEN claim that you are correctly analyzing their position. Their position is limited exclusively to what they know and how they view the world.

 

[cph9fa]

But according to Lumley, the senior agent - i.e., the leader of the first team - called in an 0-8-4, and said an entire village had died trying to protect it.
If he and his own team were Hydra and they had just slaughtered the whole village, why would they call in an 0-8-4, and tell the other team that the whole village had been killed protecting it? It would be much simpler to take Skye and leave, without saying a word - and without involving any other team.

A further difficulty is: suppose the first team is a Hydra team. They kill all of the villagers. Instead of taking Skye and leaving without saying a word, then they contact a loyal SHIELD team for some unknown reason (but why?) and tell them that all of the villagers were killed trying to protect an 0-8-4 - of course without mentioning that they are the killers.

But then, someone kills off the whole Hydra team - a team that just managed to wipe out an entire village. But who does that? At least, one of the killings is done with a gun. I guess Jiaying and Cal are the candidates, but it's the two of them vs. a Hydra team that just took out all of the villagers.

Our disagreement is in the order of events, and precisely when the village gets slaughtered. Admittedly, it's not clear from Lumley's account. You seem to assume that the senior agent is already on site with a first team, then the village is slaughtered, then they call in a second team after that.

But I'm not sure I read it that way. The "two teams", including the senior agent, all go to the scene together as a single team, but half the team stays back, off the field, to run comms and act as a reserve. *Then* the village begins fighting the agents that went in (yes, I assume the villagers are armed), at some point Cal shows up, communication is lost, and a chaotic threeway fight breaks out. After the dust settles, the back-end team goes in (again, they are never "called in") and finds the baby.

Admittedly, if the village was already slaughtered *before* the team ever got there, then this would have to be modified (and yes, I realize that is a valid reading). I just don't think Lumley's account is clear enough. I'm going to hold off on any more theories until we see next weeks episode, in the vain hope that we hear something more about it, since it looks like we're going to get another Hyde-out.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Um...well...yeah...and THATS THE POINT. This discussion was about the position of the Inhumans...so it is NECESSARY to try to enter the mindset of the Inhumans. It is incorrect to stand outside of The Inhumans, knowing things they don't know, knowing that the stars of the show are in SHIELD, and THEN claim that you are correctly analyzing their position. Their position is limited exclusively to what they know and how they view the world.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing but empathy for people who are unfairly subjugated, just as I feel for people that are on the no fly list just because they share a name with a person of interest. That being said, if I have to choose a side, it'll will not be the one that kills an emissary while under a flag of truce. And if truth be known, I expected Gonzales to be the deceitful one.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing but empathy for people who are unfairly subjugated, just as I feel for people that are on the no fly list just because they share a name with a person of interest. That being said, if I have to choose a side, it'll will not be the one that kills an emissary while under a flag of truce. And if truth be known, I expected Gonzales to be the deceitful one.

Did you also feel the same way about the emissary in 300? (Assuming you watched it, and there's probably a good chance you did.) I mean Leonidas killed the emissary there too, yet they were portrayed as the good guys through out the movie. So were you rooting for the bad guys in that movie, because of Leo's heinous acts at the start of the film, where he just kills the messenger?

 

[WhiteWalker]

Did you also feel the same way about the emissary in 300? (Assuming you watched it, and there's probably a good chance you did.) I mean Leonidas killed the emissary there too, yet they were portrayed as the good guys through out the movie. So were you rooting for the bad guys in that movie, because of Leo's heinous acts at the start of the film, where he just kills the messenger?

Good god man!!! Give it a rest already!!! I've stated my thoughts on the matter about as plain as I can, and I absolutely refuse to get into a pissing match. I've said all I plan to on the subject. "Did you see 300?" Gimme a break!