Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD - Episode 2.20 - "Scars"

[KingCheops]

Did you also feel the same way about the emissary in 300? (Assuming you watched it, and there's probably a good chance you did.) I mean Leonidas killed the emissary there too, yet they were portrayed as the good guys through out the movie. So were you rooting for the bad guys in that movie, because of Leo's heinous acts at the start of the film, where he just kills the messenger?

Ugh I could not get through that movie. Such a terrible waste of time. Makes me wonder why the hell I ever chose to sit through The Watchmen and Sucker Punch. Never watching one of his movies again.

The Spartans were just generally terrible people. To graduate from the academy you had to hunt and kill a helot (farmer) and not get caught. They also had about 20,000 troops backing them up from other cities but you only ever hear about the god-damned Spartans. It would have all been moot anyway if Athens hadn't done it's part at Salamis.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

Good god man!!! Give it a rest already!!! I've stated my thoughts on the matter about as plain as I can, and I absolutely refuse to get into a pissing match. I've said all I plan to on the subject. "Did you see 300?" Gimme a break!

Umm seeing as this is the first time I've quoted you, and your quoted post made no mention of you being done with this conversation don't get your panties all tied up in a bunch. If you can't make a valid counter point then just acknowledge it, instead of acting like a pissed little princess.

Edit : Decided I didn't want a double post so editing this one instead

Ugh I could not get through that movie. Such a terrible waste of time. Makes me wonder why the hell I ever chose to sit through The Watchmen and Sucker Punch. Never watching one of his movies again.

The Spartans were just generally terrible people. To graduate from the academy you had to hunt and kill a helot (farmer) and not get caught. They also had about 20,000 troops backing them up from other cities but you only ever hear about the god-damned Spartans. It would have all been moot anyway if Athens hadn't done it's part at Salamis.

It was a **** movie and I hated it, didn't bother with a second one. But it served a purpose here in pointing out how people perceive things based not on reason or fact, but just by how the information is presented.

 

[Chemistro]

Our disagreement is in the order of events, and precisely when the village gets slaughtered. Admittedly, it's not clear from Lumley's account. You seem to assume that the senior agent is already on site with a first team, then the village is slaughtered, then they call in a second team after that.

I'm not assuming that. My position is that there probably is not solution regarding when the village is slaughtered and other matters without introducing unknown players or attributing unknown intentions to known players, though I'm open to suggestions.
But I was only explaining some of the problems I saw in the hypothesis you presented, at least as I understood it. But after your clarification, I will consider the hypothesis again (see below).

But I'm not sure I read it that way. The "two teams", including the senior agent, all go to the scene together as a single team, but half the team stays back, off the field, to run comms and act as a reserve.
*Then* the village begins fighting the agents that went in (yes, I assume the villagers are armed), at some point Cal shows up, communication is lost, and a chaotic threeway fight breaks out. After the dust settles, the back-end team goes in (again, they are never "called in") and finds the baby.

So, Hydra decides to classify Skye an 0-8-4, and a SHIELD team with Hydra members is sent to kidnap (or "retrieve?" But it sounds like kidnapping to me). The team splits, and the first part goes on to retrieve her, whereas the rest (who are loyal SHIELD agents) stay behind.

But a question here is: when does the senior agent say that an entire village died protecting the 0-8-4?

Your transcription says:

L: We were headed into the Hunan Province of China; senior agent called in an 0-8-4.
C: An object of unknown origin. We've dealt with those before.
L: He said the entire village had died, trying to protect this one. Avery and I were just fresh out of the Academy. There were five of us running the back end, until we lost communication with the first team. We went searching; found the senior agent under a bridge. He had managed to escape with a gunshot wound to the neck, but he bled out. He was still holding on to the 0-8-4. Poor thing was covered in blood. We thought she was dead too. But she was just asleep in the dead agent's arms.

From that, the impression is that the senior agent arrives with the first team, and communicates to the other team that the whole village had died trying to protect that one. Then, communications break down.
But if we go by the hypothesis you suggest, the only way would be that the senior agent was still alive under the bridge, and told the second part of the team that the entire village had died trying to protect the 0-8-4. What's your take on the issue of when the senior agent said that the village had died?

 

[cph9fa]

What's your take on the issue of when the senior agent said that the village had died?

I admit it's a bit of a sticky issue, and like you, I'm not sure that there's a complete solution (I want there to be one!).

The catch-22, as I see it now, is that the village was destroyed during a Hyde-Out event, which was a result of the missing baby, which was missing because it was taken by a team, who was responding to the village being destroyed. It's like the chicken-and-egg all over again! Did SHIELD take the baby because the village was destroyed, or was the village destroyed because SHIELD took the baby? My attempt at a solution is to try to make these events essentially simultaneous, so that different characters have different views of what caused what.

I also feel like, even though Lumley had the only detailed description of the event, it was from the perspective of a terrified rookie who wasn't actually in there when the action took place, and also, as the earliest description of the event, it is unfortunately the most susceptible to being retconned by later statements if needed. The later statements all point to the village being destroyed as a result of the child missing.

I really hope we get a better answer than this.

 

[just one thing]

I admit it's a bit of a sticky issue, and like you, I'm not sure that there's a complete solution (I want there to be one!).

The catch-22, as I see it now, is that the village was destroyed during a Hyde-Out event, which was a result of the missing baby, which was missing because it was taken by a team, who was responding to the village being destroyed. It's like the chicken-and-egg all over again! Did SHIELD take the baby because the village was destroyed, or was the village destroyed because SHIELD took the baby? My attempt at a solution is to try to make these events essentially simultaneous, so that different characters have different views of what caused what.

I also feel like, even though Lumley had the only detailed description of the event, it was from the perspective of a terrified rookie who wasn't actually in there when the action took place, and also, as the earliest description of the event, it is unfortunately the most susceptible to being retconned by later statements if needed. The later statements all point to the village being destroyed as a result of the child missing.

I really hope we get a better answer than this.

Cal found his wife in europe when he came back the child was gone. Maybe the village wasn't him. fingers pointed at Hydra but what about inhumans. We know they are ok with leaving people behind to protect their secrets so no rescue mission for jiaying but maybe they are a bit more pro active when it comes to clues pointing at them still lying around, skye the child of a powered person with no visible extra dna.

 

[kevin626]

Never the less, you claim that SHIELD actually have a policy of capture and experiment. They indexed them, and as long as they behaved, they had nothing to fear from SHIELD. This is no different than society in general. There are laws! You obey the laws or there are consequences. If someone is a danger to themselves or society, steps are taken to mitigate the threat. It is done according to protocols and not just to see how someone ticks.

FALSE LOGIC
Cops carry guns.
Criminals carry guns.
Therefore all cops are criminals.

In what universe is SHIELD the law? It certainly isn't the MCU. As of The Winter Soldier, SHIELD agents are fugitives of the law. I've seen every AoS episide and I haven't seen that publicly changed. From the Inhuamans perspective, a part of an organization deemed fugitives shows up at the door step with guns and war planes and demand they submit themselves to "indexing".

 

[DN91]

As of now, SHIELD is as legal as the Avengers are when it comes to fighting bad guys.

 

[Heretic]

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing but empathy for people who are unfairly subjugated, just as I feel for people that are on the no fly list just because they share a name with a person of interest. That being said, if I have to choose a side, it'll will not be the one that kills an emissary while under a flag of truce. And if truth be known, I expected Gonzales to be the deceitful one.

The flag of truce depended solely on her surrendering and subjecting her entire population to subjugation. That is not a truce, it's a threat. A threat from a guy who brought a weapon of his own.

SHIELD's path to peace was the complete surrender of a group of people (allowing SHIELD to perform tests on them and catalog them) who had not declared war on them and in fact just wanted to be left alone. How is that a reasonable path to peace when no war had even started yet? SHIELDs position was that they would start a war unless this group who wanted to be left alone surrendered in advance.

Maybe SHIELD could hand over that weapon to the Inhumans...you know...The Inhumans have to get SOMETHING out of the deal, right?? You can't expect a group of people to let you test on them and catalog them while you have a weapon that can wipe them off the face of the earth. But lets face it...SHIELD doesn't give up weapons...so The Inhumans weren't getting ANYTHING out of the deal.

 

[Chemistro]

I admit it's a bit of a sticky issue, and like you, I'm not sure that there's a complete solution (I want there to be one!).

I want that too.
I'm just not inclined to think there is (well, we can come up with any consistent theory by adding unknown factors (e.g., some psychics were involved and messed with people's heads!), but that's not a good solution).

I also feel like, even though Lumley had the only detailed description of the event, it was from the perspective of a terrified rookie who wasn't actually in there when the action took place, and also, as the earliest description of the event, it is unfortunately the most susceptible to being retconned by later statements if needed. The later statements all point to the village being destroyed as a result of the child missing.

There is another difficulty - one that you actually pointed out earlier, namely that even if one considers later statements, one gets the impression that Cal wasn't yet Hyde.
In fact, his words in 2.13 indicate that his become Cal was also prompted at least partly by the loss of Skye - and partly by what happened to Jiaying.

 

[Uskok]

So, the Inhumans should let SHIELD capture and index them? Because THAT sounds safe, given SHIELDs crap history?

Who said anything about capturing? Lincoln Campbell was indexed, they took a sample of his blood, and let him go. That's all.

The reason why Strucker was able to take the scepter right out from Fury's nose is because Hydra agents could come and go as they pleased within SHIELD facilities. Hydra had access to the WMDs that SHIELD had been pretending to destroy but were actually storing in a base.

Coulson and Fury knew about these things. They were SHIELD programs. The fact that some people in SHIELD were also in Hydra and took the programs in SLIGHTLY different directions than what Coulson or Fury would do is irrelevant.

So by your logic S.H.I.E.L.D. is responsible for HYDRA's crimes.

Skye is hardly a spokesperson for what is best for the Inhumans.

So now she can't be a spokesperson for the Inhumans because she's "compromised" by being a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, is that what you're saying?

The Inhuman position is clear...it is not safe for them to allow themselves to cataloged and experimented on.

Who said anything about experimenting on them? HYDRA was making experiments on the Inhumans, not S.H.I.E.L.D.

The flag of truce depended solely on her surrendering and subjecting her entire population to subjugation. That is not a truce, it's a threat. A threat from a guy who brought a weapon of his own.

Subjugation? Simmons and the medical team would take blood samples from the inhabitants of Afterlife and leave. And that guy also brought a gift, Skye's necklace that Whitehall took from Jiaying. If that's not a peace offer, then what is?

SHIELD's path to peace was the complete surrender of a group of people (allowing SHIELD to perform tests on them and catalog them) who had not declared war on them and in fact just wanted to be left alone. How is that a reasonable path to peace when no war had even started yet? SHIELDs position was that they would start a war unless this group who wanted to be left alone surrendered in advance.

Maybe SHIELD could hand over that weapon to the Inhumans...you know...The Inhumans have to get SOMETHING out of the deal, right?? You can't expect a group of people to let you test on them and catalog them while you have a weapon that can wipe them off the face of the earth. But lets face it...SHIELD doesn't give up weapons...so The Inhumans weren't getting ANYTHING out of the deal.

Perform tests on them? Please, stop making up stories because this is becoming quite boring.

 

[Heretic]

Who said anything about capturing? Lincoln Campbell was indexed, they took a sample of his blood, and let him go. That's all.



So by your logic S.H.I.E.L.D. is responsible for HYDRA's crimes.



So now she can't be a spokesperson for the Inhumans because she's "compromised" by being a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, is that what you're saying?



Who said anything about experimenting on them? HYDRA was making experiments on the Inhumans, not S.H.I.E.L.D.



Subjugation? Simmons and the medical team would take blood samples from the inhabitants of Afterlife and leave. And that guy also brought a gift, Skye's necklace that Whitehall took from Jiaying. If that's not a peace offer, then what is?



Perform tests on them? Please, stop making up stories because this is becoming quite boring.

1. Skye is an awful spokesperson for the viewpoint of the Inhumans because she is a SHIELD agent AND she doesn't even know what the viewpoint of the Inhumans is! She is still mostly in the dark about what the Inhumans do and why they do it. Therefore, she's a terrible person to be making their decisions for them.

2. Yes, SHIELD would be performing tests. After all...you can't catalog a person with powers unless you...you know...TEST THEM to see what they are capable of. The index surely has a threat level feature, so they would need to know what they are dealing with.

3. Why exactly should the Inhumans subject themselves to ANYTHING? I'm sorry, but when you are trying to be peaceful and in fact are in hiding and an outside force shows up with the threat of "we will kill you unless you submit to letting us catalog you" then you ARE being subjugated. That's a flat out threat. The Inhumans path to peace is to be left alone. SHIELDs path to peace is to take blood samples, analyze the threat level of every potential soldier in the opposing army...oh...and they have a weapon that the Inhumans are terribly afraid of. How you are unable to see that as unfair in the minds of the Inhumans is beyond me. Would YOU allow someone to come to your house and threaten to kill you unless you gave them blood samples and let them study what kinds of skills you have? Would you consider yourself the villain if you chose to defend your house?

4. I'm not saying that SHIELD shares in the blame of what Hydra did...Captain America did. Thats why he believed that the entire organization needed to be torn down...because SHIELD had the same exact programs as Hydra but with slightly different agendas.

 

[Seb]

Who said anything about capturing? Lincoln Campbell was indexed, they took a sample of his blood, and let him go. That's all.



So by your logic S.H.I.E.L.D. is responsible for HYDRA's crimes.



So now she can't be a spokesperson for the Inhumans because she's "compromised" by being a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, is that what you're saying?



Who said anything about experimenting on them? HYDRA was making experiments on the Inhumans, not S.H.I.E.L.D.



Subjugation? Simmons and the medical team would take blood samples from the inhabitants of Afterlife and leave. And that guy also brought a gift, Skye's necklace that Whitehall took from Jiaying. If that's not a peace offer, then what is?



Perform tests on them? Please, stop making up stories because this is becoming quite boring.

I'll join this discussion, if a little late to the party:

I think that the simplest point was made above by kevin626: SHIELD are fugitives, essentially vigilantes. Not only do they not have jurisdiction over the Inhumans, they don't have jurisdiction over anyone. All the world knows about them is that Captain America destroyed SHIELD and leaked all its secrets onto the internet, many of which were very ugly (because I'm guessing SHIELD's records did not distinguish between Hydra and SHIELD operations).

Since the events of Winter Soldier, all SHIELD operatives are acting outside of the laws of every country they used to represent. They are a highly trained high tech militia group formed from the remnants of a disgraced peacekeeping organisation.

So the question is: Why should a peaceful community of people give anything up to this militia group? If a bunch of disgraced armed cops on the run came to your town, would you be of the opinion that your town should just let them take blood samples and catalogue your weapons?

 

[WhiteWalker]

Maybe SHIELD could hand over that weapon to the Inhumans...you know...The Inhumans have to get SOMETHING out of the deal, right?? You can't expect a group of people to let you test on them and catalog them while you have a weapon that can wipe them off the face of the earth. But lets face it...SHIELD doesn't give up weapons...so The Inhumans weren't getting ANYTHING out of the deal.

2.20
Gonzales"We should have destroyed it when we had the chance"
Weaver"you know we couldn't risk it; there were to many variables"
May"So this is alien"?
Gonzales"It was recovered from a dig site nearly a hundred years ago"
Weaver" It's energy signatures are unlike anything we've ever seen before"
Hunter"And does anyone have any idea what alien world it came from, or what it even does"?"Well this new SHIELD brain trust seems to be working out brilliantly".
Gonzales"Anything about it in Fury's toolbox"?
Coulson"Just that hydra was looking for it".
Morse"Well now we have a new interested party"
Gonzales"question is, why"?

Since you like to talk about points of view.

 

[just one thing]

did coulson dodge a bullet, if it was coulson who went to that meeting and was killed doubt skye would buy that her mother was defending herself.


when did kara learn to fly a plane.

and whats the craic with the necklace

 

[WhiteWalker]

I think that the simplest point was made above by kevin626: SHIELD are fugitives, essentially vigilantes. Not only do they not have jurisdiction over the Inhumans, they don't have jurisdiction over anyone. All the world knows about them is that Captain America destroyed SHIELD and leaked all its secrets onto the internet, many of which were very ugly (because I'm guessing SHIELD's records did not distinguish between Hydra and SHIELD operations).

At least you're stipulating that there is a difference between SHIELD and Hydra. My point has always been that even though they are not perfect, (What organization is?) the principals that they were founded on we're just. Hydra just ruined their rep.

If I walk into a store with a friend and he decides to rob the the store unbeknownst to me. I may look like a criminal to the world, even though I'm not.

 

[WhiteWalker]

did coulson dodge a bullet, if it was coulson who went to that meeting and was killed doubt skye would buy that her mother was defending herself.


when did kara learn to fly a plane.

and whats the craic with the necklace

The meeting may have had had a different outcome if it were not the guy that tried to have Skye killed. I'll admit, that could have factored into the events.

Musta been when Ward was asking her if she wanted to take the stick.

??? Know one knows at this point. But I have a feeling it's purpose will be revealed later.

 

[metaphysician]

Its perfectly reasonable that the inhumans would not want to be indexed. They have a reasonable position about how secrecy is a good thing, and that they don't trust SHIELD.

The problem is that Jiaying didn't even try to negotiate over the matter. She didn't reject the initial proposal and then suggest a counter-proposal, like "We won't let you index us, but we will allow for the exchange of envoys, and the trade of information in the event of a rogue inhuman causing trouble." She didn't make an argument for why SHIELD standard policy shouldn't apply, like "We aren't some random band of superhumans. We are our own society, and we are older than yours. Your going to have to treat us like a foreign country, not citizens of your own." She didn't engage in any negotiation at all. Instead, she... killed Gonzalez under false pretenses.

Basically, the inhumans have a perfectly reasonable position. Jiaying just didn't bother with it.

 

[WhiteWalker]

Its perfectly reasonable that the inhumans would not want to be indexed. They have a reasonable position about how secrecy is a good thing, and that they don't trust SHIELD.

The problem is that Jiaying didn't even try to negotiate over the matter. She didn't reject the initial proposal and then suggest a counter-proposal, like "We won't let you index us, but we will allow for the exchange of envoys, and the trade of information in the event of a rogue inhuman causing trouble." She didn't make an argument for why SHIELD standard policy shouldn't apply, like "We aren't some random band of superhumans. We are our own society, and we are older than yours. Your going to have to treat us like a foreign country, not citizens of your own." She didn't engage in any negotiation at all. Instead, she... killed Gonzalez under false pretenses.

Basically, the inhumans have a perfectly reasonable position. Jiaying just didn't bother with it.

Well expressed! That has been my position all along. It's not that I don't think they have a right to the same liberties as everyone else. But societies don't work unless there are boundaries.

 

[just one thing]

Its perfectly reasonable that the inhumans would not want to be indexed. They have a reasonable position about how secrecy is a good thing, and that they don't trust SHIELD.

The problem is that Jiaying didn't even try to negotiate over the matter. She didn't reject the initial proposal and then suggest a counter-proposal, like "We won't let you index us, but we will allow for the exchange of envoys, and the trade of information in the event of a rogue inhuman causing trouble." She didn't make an argument for why SHIELD standard policy shouldn't apply, like "We aren't some random band of superhumans. We are our own society, and we are older than yours. Your going to have to treat us like a foreign country, not citizens of your own." She didn't engage in any negotiation at all. Instead, she... killed Gonzalez under false pretenses.

Basically, the inhumans have a perfectly reasonable position. Jiaying just didn't bother with it.

And going to war breaks the secrecy rule. Brings more attention on her community.

She should have flat out said no, shied don't have the means for a war like this, only leverage they have is outing the inhumans and once that card is played its played, maybe she is calling their bluff.




Coulson said he was going to have a sit down unarmed. Gonlzales went armed. Only difference i can see between the two potential meetings, unless the neckless means something, like whitehall never had it, and it being in gonzales possession told jiaying he was not to be trusted. If thats not the case then she is escalating the situation on very little and risking her society's number 1 rule, secrecy. Being evil if she is doesn't take away from the brilliance of her speaking voice, hope they keep her around, she is a joy to listen to.

 

[WhiteWalker]

And going to war breaks the secrecy rule. Brings more attention on her community.

She should have flat out said no, shied don't have the means for a war like this, only leverage they have is outing the inhumans and once that card is played its played, maybe she is calling their bluff.




Coulson said he was going to have a sit down unarmed. Gonlzales went armed. Only difference i can see between the two potential meetings, unless the neckless means something, like whitehall never had it, and it being in gonzales possession told jiaying he was not to be trusted. If thats not the case then she is escalating the situation on very little and risking her society's number 1 rule, secrecy. Being evil if she is doesn't take away from the brilliance of her speaking voice, hope they keep her around, she is a joy to listen to.

The difference is Gonzales is the man that put out a kill order on Skye. And Coulson is the man that Skye looks up to, and as Cal told Jiaying, he actually cares about her.

 

[just one thing]

The difference is Gonzales is the man that put out a kill order on Skye. And Coulson is the man that Skye looks up to, and as Cal told Jiaying, he actually cares about her.

she seemed more angry at the prospect of her people being profiled. revenge did not seem to be an issue though you could be right.

 

[melvintwj]

I somehow have a feeling that Skye would side with the Inhumans at first, but somehow Gonzales' rock body with missing hand would fill in certain blanks and causes Skye to switch allegiance/be the bridge between SHIELD/Inhumans.

Edit: Realized that I wasn't clear. Basically Skye might notice that something is amiss when she sees the broken hand on Gonzales.

 

[WhiteWalker]

I somehow have a feeling that Skye would side with the Inhumans at first, but somehow Gonzales' rock body with missing hand would fill in certain blanks and causes Skye to switch allegiance/be the bridge between SHIELD/Inhumans.

Edit: Realized that I wasn't clear. Basically Skye might notice that something is amiss when she sees the broken hand on Gonzales.

I think Skye will find out from Raina. She may not believe her at first but other coincidences will serve to consolidate her thoughts and allow her to see things more clearly.

 

[melvintwj]

I do think that Rains would play a part too.

Also, is it me or there's an interesting parallel between Jia Ying and Magneto?

 

[Seb]

I somehow have a feeling that Skye would side with the Inhumans at first, but somehow Gonzales' rock body with missing hand would fill in certain blanks and causes Skye to switch allegiance/be the bridge between SHIELD/Inhumans.

Edit: Realized that I wasn't clear. Basically Skye might notice that something is amiss when she sees the broken hand on Gonzales.

I don't think that'll be it. Gonzales body doesn't disprove Jiaying's story, or at least she could easily say that Gonzales shot her, so she used a Diviner on him then broke his hand to take his gun.