The Dark Knight Rises Agree or Disagree: John Blake is the root of the problems in TDKR

[Denver]

truth of the matter is that Joh Blake only shared a few minutes with Bruce Wayne, and while his on-screen character was being developed (to which I will be the first to admit JGL did a fantastic job in portraying), Bruce was literally stuck in a hole in the middle of nowhere. How on earth is it possible even remotely conceivable that he changed his will prior to being thrown in the pit, ensuring that Blake inherited the cave and its contents?? Unless we are to believe that they shared special orphan powers, I mean isn't that how they explained Blake knew Bruce was Batman?? Come on now - the Alfred character who was set up to be the quintessential father figure in the first 2 movies vanished and didn't even once show on-screen concern to what was taking place in Gotham or Bruce's whereabouts? Or how about Gordon - reduced to being a bumbling cop - going BBBB- Bruce Wayne at the end when Bruce went on about that nonsense about the coat - like Gordon only showed concern to one victim in his entire career as a police officer, and even he as commissioner didn't figure out who Batman was but some rookie did?? And this is after Batman practically sacrificed himself for Gordon's own reputation at the end of TDK... he didn't once even care who it was who did this for him??
Either I read too much into the development of these characters and grew too attached to them - or this 3rd movie somewhat ruined what they initially set out to create.
WHy on earth would Bruce even want anyone else to be a vigilante after knowing what he's lost as a result of it?

 

[shauner111]

It seems that once he reached the outskirts of Gotham (Wayne Manor) he was probably in Gotham for a little bit preparing things and just making his way into the city without being caught by mercenaries. It could have been a good half hour of footage if they really wanted to shoot it but obviously why bother? That's if you add in his journey back to Gotham which probably took a hell of a long time.

Not showing Alfreds concerns? Do you want them to show you every single thing?? You want a 4 hour movie?

Gordon and the coat was nonsense to you? Sir, i have no idea why you're even here then because that scene was quite amazing for most of us. It's not that Gordon couldnt figure out who he was either, he just never cared and didnt want to know. He put it out of his mind just like in the comics.

There's a difference when that random kid that Gordon put a coat over, was the kid of a pretty powerful couple in Gotham and that kid went on to become just as rich and known.

It's Blakes choice if he wants to take the mantle or not, nobodys forcing him. The theme has always been about becoming more than a man, a legend, a symbol that can be passed on through the ages. So Batman can go on forever. In the comics Bruce can probably be Batman forever, but in the movies or real life it would have to go onto another man. So it's not that Bruce wants to inflict this onto a person, the person has to want it for himself. Again nobody is forcing it onto Blake.

 

[BlueLightning]

That's true, Bruce had almost three weeks to return to Gotham City. He had time to devise his plan, and make his arrangements. Also, it is not like they built the statue in a day. There was some time after the bomb went off at the bay.

And as for the Gordon stuff, that's just not how the character works. Gordon prefers not to know who the Batman is. It is enough to know that it was the Batman. That little moment at the end, with Batman referencing the noble gesture Gordon did, was a sign of gratitude towards Gordon. He assured him that his world has not ended, that because of him, Bruce managed to do all of these stuff, that he was a hero too.

 

[shauner111]

Yes indeeeeed, that moment with Gordon & Batman is something that both comic purists & lovers of this trilogy can absolutely love. It's Batman showing Jim respect, an awesome moment. Gordon (in any incarnation) would and should never care who he was.

 

[The Guard]

Gordon and the coat was nonsense to you? Sir, i have no idea why you're even here then because that scene was quite amazing for most of us. It's not that Gordon couldnt figure out who he was either, he just never cared and didnt want to know. He put it out of his mind just like in the comics.

Gordon doesn't "not care" about who Batman is in the comics. He respects Batman's privacy, but it's been strongly hinted that he knows who Batman is several times.

 

[CJ]

I wouldn't say Blake is the root of all the problems in TDKR, but he's certainly one of them.

It's one thing to have Batman be out of commission thanks to Bane, but to also take Gordon out of the picture, while Alfred is fired & completely forgotten about, and then to focus on an entirely new character for an extended period of time? In the FINALE of the Batman franchise, no less? Yeah, really bad idea there, Nolan.

It seems kind of pointless to spend so much time developing the character of Robin, (At the expense of Batman & Gordon) only to end the entire movie series before we even get to see him in costume, fighting crime.

WHy on earth would Bruce even want anyone else to be a vigilante after knowing what he's lost as a result of it?

This.

 

[BatLobster]

I think Blake got a fair amount of development, but it never felt at the expense of Batman and Gordon to me. Gordon and Blake were a team with Blake kind of filling in for Batman, while Bruce was on his own compelling journey. I thought Blake was part of Gordon's character development because it was kind of like Gordon meeting a young and naive version of himself. I really enjoyed the "somewhere, far out there..." moment between them.

 

[Denver]

its one thing to have Gordon not care who Batman was and not speak about his theory on who Batman is to just any rookie cop - its another thing entirely to show that he in fact didn't have a clue whatsoever.
And really, what did Blake do to show Bruce he is ready to earn the Batman mantle? Training? Nope. Competence? Nope. Orphan powers. Check!!
I'm not sure if shoddy editing is to blame but Blake only shared a handful of minutes with Bruce - nothing that would make broke Bruce Wayne run off to his lawyers and get his will changed right away - on the very same day Batman returned, Alfred left, and he lost "everything" he had. ********? Check.

 

[BatLobster]

It makes much more sense to assume that Bruce amended his will once he got back to Gotham. He got all his ducks in a row, then tracked down Selina and put his plan into motion. There are ways to amend a will without a lawyer, it's called a codicil and it's all handwritten.

 

[TheBat812]

Also people make a big deal about him having no training, but honestly he kicks alot of ass in this film, and he's got time to develop. What made him earn the mantle was his similar experiences as Bruce, clear demonstration of a need for justice, and his willingness to inspire hope no matter how futile it might be.

 

[The Joker]

Gordon doesn't "not care" about who Batman is in the comics. He respects Batman's privacy, but it's been strongly hinted that he knows who Batman is several times.

Remember that awesome scene in No Man's Land where Batman and Gordon are trying to repair their friendship after Batman abandoned Gotham briefly when No Man's Land was declared, and Gordon was really pissed because he thought Batman had abandoned Gotham like the rest of the world had? So Batman takes off his mask in front of Gordon to offer him the only thing he can to show how much he values their friendship. Gordon refuses to look. Saying if he wanted to know he could have found out years ago, or maybe he already knows.

Also people make a big deal about him having no training, but honestly he kicks alot of ass in this film, and he's got time to develop. What made him earn the mantle was his similar experiences as Bruce, clear demonstration of a need for justice, and his willingness to inspire hope no matter how futile it might be.

I didn't see him kick a lot of ass. I didn't see him do anything any Cop his age couldn't have done.

 

[shauner111]

"Training is nothing, will is everything". Blake showed that he can at least handle himself against a couple of thugs, just like Bruce could do when he was in his 20s before he went to the temple to train properly.

Blake has all the time in the world to go train. What matters is he has it inside of him.

 

[The Joker]

"Training is nothing, will is everything". Blake showed that he can at least handle himself against a couple of thugs, just like Bruce could do when he was in his 20s before he went to the temple to train properly.

Bruce took out a gang of prisoners all by himself in a foreign prison and then had to be isolated from them for their protection.

Hardly the same as Blake shooting two guys, and taking out a couple of thugs.

Blake has all the time in the world to go train. What matters is he has it inside of him.

Yes, the will. That's all it takes to be Batman. Will. Gordon should try it himself, too.

 

[BlueLightning]

As I said before, it is not like Blake would instantly put on the cape and the cowl and fight villians every week same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel. He has to find his own way, just like Bruce did.

And Bruce had a lot of training at the time he was in the foreign prison, where some years before he was beat up by Falcone's thugs.

 

[shauner111]

Bruce took out a gang of prisoners all by himself in a foreign prison and then had to be isolated from them for their protection.

Hardly the same as Blake shooting two guys, and taking out a couple of thugs.

And what the hell is the difference in the long run? So Bruce is a little tougher than Blake cuz he can take out 4 more people or whatever........annnnd that means Blake cant be the Batman? What? lol. Point is Blake can at least handle himself.

Yes, the will. That's all it takes to be Batman. Will. Gordon should try it himself, too.

You're looking at it wrong. Did Gordon have a similar upbringing as Bruce and Robin? Most likely not. Did he grow up without parents and rage inside of him? No.

Gordon is probably close to 60 at this point and only knows Batmans identity now. Don't try to be cute.

The whole reason why Batman is so relatable in the first place is because he is a flawed human being without superpowers, and if we had the money or equipment at our disposal and have motivation to do good for our city and get rid of the criminality (which most of us have that urge) YES any of us can become the Batman. Orphans have that kind of loss and anger inside them more than the average joe, so that's why it's more fitting for a Bruce Wayne or a Dick Grayson/John Blake to become this character. But Nolan was right, anybody (or most people) can be the Batman under the right circumstances. Training is not a big deal really, because anybody on the planet can take a year out of their lives to learn martial arts...that's what Ra's was trying to tell Bruce. You have to have it inside of you first. Blake now has the equipment at his disposal, maybe not the amount of money but it's there in that cave im sure. He's inspired by Batman, he seems like he wants to be that symbol for the future, he grew up in a similar way to Bruce perhaps in grittier circumstances.

 

[The Joker]

And what the hell is the difference in the long run? So Bruce is a little tougher than Blake cuz he can take out 4 more people or whatever........annnnd that means Blake cant be the Batman? What? lol. Point is Blake can at least handle himself.

You're the one who brought up the analogy to Bruce in his 20's before he got training with the LOS. Bruce showed himself to be more proficient in hand to hand combat than Blake did in all of TDKR.

Who's going to train Blake in the art of martial arts, theatricality, deception etc?

You're looking at it wrong. Did Gordon have a similar upbringing as Bruce and Robin? Most likely not. Did he grow up without parents and rage inside of him? No.

Hang on a second. You're the one who used the quote of a VILLAIN about the will to act being all you need for the job. According to you Blake showed himself capable of kicking ass all through the movie (which he didn't), and that will, again according to you, is what he needs.

Now you're back peddling and making more and more comparisons about the backgrounds and pasts.

Gordon is probably close to 60 at this point and only knows Batmans identity now.

Oh so age matters now when it comes to the will to act?

How old was Ra's Al Ghul when he was training Bruce do you think?

Don't try to be cute.

Cute? Don't blame me because your logic is so easily turned against your own argument.

The whole reason why Batman is so relatable in the first place is because he is a flawed human being without superpowers, and if we had the money or equipment at our disposal and have motivation to do good for our city and get rid of the criminality (which most of us have that urge) YES any of us can become the Batman.

Tony Stark is a flawed human being. Iron Man doesn't have powers either. Do you feel relatable to him, too?

Orphans have that kind of loss and anger inside them more than the average joe, so that's why it's more fitting for a Bruce Wayne or a Dick Grayson/John Blake to become this character. But Nolan was right, anybody (or most people) can be the Batman under the right circumstances. Training is not a big deal really, because anybody on the planet can take a year out of their lives to learn martial arts...that's what Ra's was trying to tell Bruce. You have to have it inside of you first. Blake now has the equipment at his disposal, maybe not the amount of money but it's there in that cave im sure. He's inspired by Batman, he seems like he wants to be that symbol for the future, he grew up in a similar way to Bruce perhaps in grittier circumstances.

Nobody, and I mean nobody can set foot out in that Batman costume and do what Batman does unless they have the training. Can you imagine what Bruce would be like as Batman without his training?

Your point is lost on me completely when you said training is not a big deal. Anyone can learn martial arts but can anyone be good at it? This is one thing I dislike about TDKR. Bruce said "Batman can be anyone" not anyone can be Batman. There's a difference.

Just because Blake was feeling similar pain to Bruce and was a Cop who believed in justice didn't make him the ideal candidate for the job. Frankly he didn't display anything in TDKR that made him a cut above to inherit the mantle. He didn't help Batman any more than Gordon, Selina, Lucius, Foley etc when it came to the crunch.

The problem with a lot of TDKR's script is it pitches these ideas and plots and never really explores them properly. I don't see why Blake was the obvious choice to be Batman's successor. He and Batman shared two scenes together in the whole movie.

 

[shauner111]

Who's going to train Blake in the art of martial arts, theatricality, deception etc?

Bruce? Or a bunch of other masters that can teach how to become a ninja? Ra's and the League of Shadows aren't the only ones in the world you know. Theatricality may be exclusive to Ra's teachings but Blake can either use tactics that he's seen Batman use or he could develop his own ways of battling criminals. He wont be a copy-cat of Bruces Batman.

Hang on a second. You're the one who used the quote of a VILLAIN about the will to act being all you need for the job. According to you Blake showed himself capable of kicking ass all through the movie (which he didn't), and that will, again according to you, is what he needs.

Now you're back peddling and making more and more comparisons about the backgrounds and pasts.

He wasn't acting like a villain towards Bruce at that moment, that point is irrelevant. OK maybe it's not all you need because Blake will need some training but it's not at all the most important factor which i think is Bruce's point. The will to act is the most important. The training is something that can be done anytime afterwards. Without will to act, it means nothing. Then he's just a martial artist, a ninja with no moral compass or a random vigilante without principals.

Throughout the movie? No. But there's a couple of scenes where he showed he can at least fight a couple of guys and find a way to beat them. He might have had a small amount of training as a cop anyway, it's not really a big deal. Might not have been as tough as Bruce was pre-LOS but they can both handle themselves.

He'll need to fight obviously, it's just not the absolute most important thing. When Ras recruited Bruce he met him once. He saw him man-handle 6 dudes. But he was on his way there anyhow wasn't he? He knew who he was and gathered what kind of demons he had inside of him and what he was running from , etc. And he recruited him. It was Bruces choice, he wasnt forced to climb the mountain and train but he did. Bruce met Blake a couple of times and he knew the same stuff about him. He gives him a choice at the end, and guess what? Blake goes to the batcave.

Oh so age matters now when it comes to the will to act?

How old was Ra's Al Ghul when he was training Bruce do you think?

Cute? Don't blame me because your logic is so easily turned against your own argument.

Anybody can have the will to act but i shouldnt have to tell you that it's not fitting for a 60 year old to put on a suit and fight crime. Um hello!? Obviously doesnt mean every single person on the planet even if they're 87 years old. We're specifically talking about Blake or somebody else putting on that suit to carry the symbol SO YES in that case you would have to be an adult and under 50 or 60 something. Again, i dont know why im even saying this since Bruce is making a general statement.

Tony Stark is a flawed human being. Iron Man doesn't have powers either. Do you feel relatable to him, too?

Im not talking about Iron Man, im talking about Batman. If you want to compare....no i DONT relate to Stark for different reasons. I could talk about it all day, but i wont. Again...Irrelevant to Batman

Your point is lost on me completely when you said training is not a big deal. Anyone can learn martial arts but can anyone be good at it? This is one thing I dislike about TDKR. Bruce said "Batman can be anyone" not anyone can be Batman. There's a difference.

Maybe i said it and you weren't listening or i probably didn't make myself clear which is my fault. But what i mean is in order to be Batman you will have to have some sort of training yes, but the training itself is not that big of a deal for Blake or for anybody who would have became the successor. Because he/she has time to train if they wish. Any of us can learn specific martial arts if we put our minds to it. Now we dont know what level of training he will do. This is not the same Batman (or Nightwing) he may do things slightly different. Perhaps the next Batman doesn't need all that training, just a general amount and uses the "legend" as a form of intimidation a little more to just scare off criminals. Carrying on the legend doesn't mean he has to be just as physical. He may not encounter a huge amount of villains.

My point is still clear, the will to act is a major point and the training is just not as big of a deal.

 

[BatLobster]

Blake has his journey to go on. The point isn't to merely to wrap the story up in a neat bow, but end on a note where the story can expand in an infinite number of directions, because that's exactly what the ongoing of Batman can and will do over time.

He's got his own hero's journey to go on. In the Joseph Campbell school of myth making, there's always a "refusal of the call" before the hero accepts his role. Who knows how Blake will deal with being passed the mantle? He may think its too much responsibility. He himself may think he's not a worthy successor and have to wrestle with that. These things may thrust him on his own journey of self-discovery and training. It's all up to our imaginations. But I think it's a given that he won't be putting on a suit and fighting crime immediately upon finding the cave.

 

[shauner111]

Absolutely.

 

[Fudgie]

I hated that.

I stayed away from spoilers this go around, so I had no idea John Blake would be anything other than a cop, or even know Bruce was Batman. So when that scene came up in the movie I was thinking Blake would say "I saw you changing out of a costume" or whatever, then he started that smile bullsh**.

Sounded like that lame pick up line about 'U shaped smiles and C shaped smiles'.

Here's my problem with that scene in a nutshell: First Blake is a new character, so he can have any backstory. For example, he could've been like Tim Drake, a cop who decided to follow the story of Bruce's parents and in the process discovers he is Batman. Would've made sense for an orphan to have a fascination with a successful orphan.

Instead they pull that smile BS.

It's never even referenced again the whole film. Don't other people smile? Why does being an orphan and having inner pain automatically mean you're Batman? Batman could be some bored socialite, a fired police officer, a former military man with PTSD. The fact is his character made a giant leap in logic that if Batman were interested in keeping his ID secret, he would've just laughed off.

The whole scene was trash.

Absolutely. The whole premise of Blake and his hokey "connection" to Bruce was so false and unnatural.

 

[BatLobster]

If you think Blake didn't use some logic (Bruce Wayne actually having the financial means, being missing for 7 years, etc.) to back up his original intuition, I don't know what to say. That's an unfortunate lack of imagination. Those are obvious blanks for us to fill in.

Blake had an intuition that turned out to be right. I think it's just plain wrong to assume that a cop/detective with a good head on his shoulders wouldn't have done some more digging to solidify his theory before confronting Bruce Wayne face to face. Blake's purpose there was to shake Bruce out of apathy, so he tried to get through to him emotionally. Explaining all the logistics of how he figured it out doesn't accomplish much in terms of what he was trying to achieve by reaching out to Bruce, and only leaves us the audience with expository information. Even if you say the "smile" thing was corny, it served as a major emotional beat of the film rather than just plain exposition. By making it a small, insignificant event that clues Blake in, we as the audience don't feel like we've been cheated out of a major event in the story. It softens the retcon. Blake and the other orphans are there to show that even with Batman's fugitive status, that Batman is still a symbol of hope to young people who don't have much to hope for. This was really something I was hoping to see explored and I'm glad it was.

 

[Spuzz]

Disagree completely, never had a problem with Blake at all in this film and loved the fact I was watching "Robin" without even knowing it all along as well, even though I'm no Robin fan. Made perfect sense as well with Batman inspiring someone else to take on the mantle, all fitted perfectly for me, shame it didnt for some.

Correct opinion detected. All others irrelevant. Destruction of all unwanted opinions: commencing now.

 

[Alex Logan]

Absolutely. The whole premise of Blake and his hokey "connection" to Bruce was so false and unnatural.

Only in your mind.

 

[Alex Logan]

You're the one who brought up the analogy to Bruce in his 20's before he got training with the LOS. Bruce showed himself to be more proficient in hand to hand combat than Blake did in all of TDKR.

Who's going to train Blake in the art of martial arts, theatricality, deception etc?

I think you're looking at it from the wrong point of view.

 

[shauner111]

Who says this version of Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Winnie the Pooh, whoever he is when carrying the symbol forward...is going to use the exact same methods as Bruce. Honestly, he will have to adapt to the new situation.

The situation is either he goes off to train with Bruce, who could decline because he's in a different place in his life. Or Blake doesn't want to do that to Bruce so he trains in China or wherever, finding a different teacher who will show him similar but also different methods. Or Bruce teaches him.

The next Batman doesn't have to be as physical, it all depends on what kind of threats he's facing. And it's all left to the imagination, so nobody is wrong with their "choice of villains". They may not be difficult to fight next time around, therefore leaving Blake to use the symbols status and look as a main factor. We just dont know..

As long as the symbol lives on. And people are aware that there is a presence out there watching over them. For all we know, Blake never gets to really be Batman in a fighting manner for more than a few occasions before he passes it on to another person. And perhaps THAT person gets better training than him. It's called using your imagination, like with anything.