The Dark Knight Rises Is this a better plot than TDKR?

Besides the fact that your "plot" is not nearly clear enough...I'll tell you what I think.

Fair enough, I wouldn't mind that but I still prefer to have Bruce as a recluse. It gives more weight to the idea (in Nolan's movie) that Bruce Wayne wants to die, that he has nothing to live for. If he is not a recluse he will only seem "bored".

I don't think that if they were alive, Martha and Thomas Wayne would like their legacy to be their only son, wearing a costume and beating up criminals and villains. And I don't think that Bruce would feel that way. (I have no idea what Mask of Phantasm is, didn't click the link). Bruce not being Batman = betraying his parents legacy is just plain stupid. Sorry.

How, why?

Don't like this at all. Prison/Dungeon part is one of my favourite parts of TDKR, the whole Bruce Wayne arc of "having nothing to live for, fighting Bane with no fear, deep down wanting to die, ending up in the dungeon, failing to "rise", realising that he needs "fear", that he must feel "fear" to succeed and finally rising" I love that, that was done in an amazing way. One of my favourite Batman moments ever.

So this is the same as Nolans besides the "Gothamites learn of Bane's defeat and get inspired" and technically catwoman blasted of Bane but Bruce still defeated him...don't see how this changes anything...

Nope, sorry. I wouldn't like it if Talia escaped, I wouldn't like it if there were scenes of BRuce training Blake and Blake actually becoming Batman in front of us. I love the way Nolan ended much more.

 

No.

 

Stefan, you need to see Mask of the Phantasm.

Now that that's out of the way, the only thing that really rubs me the wrong way about this proposed storyline is the fact that Talia just escapes in the end. For a movie that is meant to be a conclusion, that's a loose end that would most certainly need to be tied up to bring a sense of closure.

 

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I'll watch the clip.

My understanding of Nolan's Bruce Wayne is that he wants to clean up the City and the best way to do that at that time is through "Batman", "batman" being a tool, something he uses to achieve his goal, not his actual goal. In TDKR Rachels death destroyed him and he wants to die basically, not help anyone or honour anything. Until, from that dungeon, he "rises".

And if in Batman established canon, Bruce Wayne feels that by not being Batman he is no longer honouring his parent's death...well, to put it nicely, that sounds terrible. If someone asked Bruce Wayne "is this what your parents hoped their legacy would be? Their only son dressing up as a Bat, risking his life and fighting criminals with his bare hands?" he would say "yes" ?
That guy (that Bruce Wayne, established Batman or whatever) is a clueless idiot.

I guess digging deeper in to the Batman comics is not for me (read and loved Year one, TDR, Killing Joke, so-so Long Halloween and Grant Morrisons Batman and Robin...everything else I read was mostly, for me, poor quality storytelling and absolutely forgettable)

 

If you want my opinion, the LoS and Talia wouldn't have been in this movie at all. With how much Nolan wanted to do in this film, these aspects just ended up being footnotes that didn't add anything truly substantial to the storyline (save for the ability to say that this movie brought things "full circle").

Bane, through a revised backstory, would have come to despise oppressive and corrupt authority figures. The politicians, the police, the beaurocrats, and yes, the Batman. That last one is why he targets Gotham in particular. He wishes to "liberate" Gotham, pull it offline, and create his own little republic where the ordinary people are free from these institutions. So the ordinary people thrive, while the politicians, police, and beaurocrats are imprisoned and executed en masse.

 

I imagine Bane as the comic-book equivalent of Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now.

 

I really like that idea, and wasn't crazy about the LoS being included in the film, but it didn't affect my love of the film. I loved the scenes of the " child " in the prison and the images of the younger Bane. I wasn't crazy about Talia's scenes besides the couple good moments with Bane. The film could've done without Talia or the LoS for sure.

 

Seconded.

 

No. There IS a better way to do it, though. Split TDKR into two different movies. Keep all the story lines in there, but expand them into two 2 - 2 1/2 hour movies.

FILM ONE - roughly two hours long.

Spoiler

Pretty much as is, from the beginning of the film (plane sequence) through Bane's speech to Bruce in the prison. Nothing would "change", but things would be added.

1. Flashback scene of Bruce and Miranda together prior to recluse. Play it off like Bruce was afraid to get close to Miranda, and it was part of the reason for the recluse. The scene should be long and heavy, ala Blake talking to Wayne in Wayne Manor. Add a scene with Alfred following it, where Bruce tells him his gut instinct is to stay away. Alfred will say it's a result of his bad attitude.

Make Miranda STUNNED to see him at the masked ball, and have it end with a "it was good seeing you, Bruce".

2. More Bruce/Alfred. Alfred spent practically the entire movie preaching to Bruce. A scene of the two of them doing something other than arguing would have been pleasant.

3. Bit more time dedicated to Bane's background. Make Bane a well known mercenary/terrorist group leader.He is hired by Daggett to rampage the stock exchange.

4. More time into "Batman legend" stuff. Maybe add a scene detailing how the Batman is still a large urban legend ala big foot. Perhaps cite a controversy surrounding him, for his public defeat of the joker won him many fans. But make it clear the cops consider him EXTREMELY dangerous. Perhaps flash a most wanted list with Batman and Bane on it together.

4. Extend the action scenes. In this first film, there would be four major action scenes - each would be extended.

A) Plane scene. Remains is.

B) Occurs about 35 minutes into the movie. Selina Bar/Cop shoot out. They meet in a restaurant as usual where Selina leaves her purse, but they instead take Selina, by force, to a warehouse on the docks . Dialogue all the same, but the table exchange ends with "I am counting to 10" - she does not hand over the thumb print. Selina escapes, and is chased through the warehouse and docks by the man. She makes it back to the restaurant on foot - gets caught. Cell phone exchange. Police cop. more prolonged shoot out. Gordon goes into sewers, etc - everything else the same. Just about 10 more minutes of fighting with Selina. Ends around the 50 minute mark.

C) Stock Exchange Raid and Return Of The Batman: Occurs about 65 minutes into the film. Very climactic scene. After the car tunnel sequence, Batman is chased by the dozens and dozens of police cars. The chase is about 5 minutes longer, and involves gunfire and more outrunning by Batman on his bike. He flies away, and is pursued by Gotham air support. He loses them by flying into tight tunnels. Then Catwoman with Dagget, fight on rooftops, escape, etc. Stock exchange through dropping Selina off takes about 25 minutes, so we are the 90 minute mark.

D) Batman Vs. Bane, Round One. Occurs around the 120 minute mark. More build up. It's tougher for Batman and Catwoman to get down there. The fight lasts a little longer. It feels very, very climactic. The entire film has been building towards this fight. Batman gets his **** pushed in.

The films ends with Bruce waking up in the prison, with Bane taunting him, promising "big plans" for Gotham.




FILM 2

Opens with Selina trying to escape, caught by Blake. Basically everything from that point above, in order, with a few things expanded.

-Bruce is in the prison longer. He trains more while down there. More time between jumps. More emphasis on how bruce's spirit must "rise".

-Bane's speech is not a montage, rather we see them happen. We see the prison escape in more detail. We see the rich being tossed from their homes in more detail. We see the depths of a real, true occupation of Gotham.

-More emphasis on the legend of batman. people thinking it is no coincidence that just after he returned, Bane raises hell. Wonder where he is. This theme is played very heavily, emphasizing the symbol Batman is. When Bane reveals the truth about Harvey, people realize that Batman was the good guy.

-add in random scene of Army wrangling with bane's army. It only makes sense for banes army to be tested; for the sake adding action, bane's man and the tumblers have a scene where they pwn the army tanks planes, etc.

-slower, more detailed analysis of what happened in the pit with bane. went a little fast in the movie.

-more scenes of gordon and the rebels figuring out ways to stop bane.

-bruce calls Alfred to get back to gotham after escaping the pit; the two kind of make up.

-the saving of gordon is more elaborate and cool; the bat symbol on bridge is more emphasized as pumping up the troops for the assault on bane.

-FINALLY: The final fight between Batman and Bane is longer. Batman swoops into a clearing in the middle of the final fight, and everybody watches briefly. Batmans victory pumps up the crowd.

everything else the same. should be about two and a half hours.

i think that would have been a better way to do it

 

I fail to see how TDKR was lacking a cohesive narrative/theme. If anything, TDK was far more convoluted and messy than TDKR was.

 

Yeah... You're going to have to explain this.

Despite it's complexities and nuances, TDK's narrative was pretty straightforward.

 

I think the plot itself was easily better than both the previous movies. The Joker is one of the greatest villains of all time, comic book or otherwise, and Ledger gave a masterful performance. But just on the merits of plot and story, TDK was much more straight forward than this, or even BB.

 

Imo Nolan's overall concept of blending No Mans Land, Knightfall, Knightsend, and The Dark Knight Returns isn't a bad one , its just not executed as well as it could have been imo.

There are characters such as Tate, Daggat, Dixon , and even Blake to an extent, whose plotlines either take away from the core characters we care about such as Alfred, Fox, and Gordon , or their plotlines go nowhere and we're left to wonder why they were even in the film. In the meanwhile, the new interesting characters such as Catwoman and Dixon are kinda pushed into the back ground when they really should be up front.

The film presents alot of interesting ideas such as the

Spoiler

Rich Poor Gap , And the city doing well based on a lie , Wayne enterprises struggling,

but ultimately really doesn't exploit them to their full potential.

There are some pretty big gaps in logic that can't be explained away by saying, "Oh its Batman" , "It doesn't need to be explained", " The Other films had the same problems" or "You're just Nitpicking". The final film is there. Its fair game to ask questions and point out inconsistency's like it or not .


Ultimately, whats done is done, and while I'm really not crazy about it, TDKR does ties things up and does bound all three films together as one story. I think next to Insomnia , its probably Nolan's weakest film, but

Spoiler

it gives Bruce a happy ending with a great woman, and I think we probably got the best live action version of Robin that there's ever been

 

I don't want to offend, but I am honestly scratching my head in confusion over this one.

 

Not to be rude, but are you asking if your plot is better than the plot created by actual screenwriters?

That's kinda...egotistical.