Is this a better plot than TDKR?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Sensei, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. Sensei Registered

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    Obviously SPOILERS below.

    I am among those disappointed by TDKR due to a lack of a cohesive narrative/theme.

    Below is my take on an alternate but similar story for TDKR

    Edit* Basically, I think the plot of TDKR is over-burdened and convoluted and could have benefited greatly by cutting characters or focusing the plot on one or two elements. Below is simply my opinion of a streamlined plot.

    Act I

    Bruce is not a recluse but has not been Batman for eight years. Internally, he feels empty but this is due to his inability to fulfil the desire of being Batman. Batman is a means of catharsis for Bruce. TDKR would begin by focusing on the melancholy nature of Bruce without Batman. It would show that despite Gotham being better, Bruce still selfishly desires to return as Batman because he is psychologically addicted to his alter-ego. We are introduced to John Blake's character through commissioner Gordon. We learn that Blake is an idealist who is obsessed with Batman and determining Batman's true identity.

    Act II

    Bruce meets Miranda Tate as a new board member for his company. He falls madly in love and finds a new purpose in life. He struggles with the decision to no longer want to be batman and feels that he is betraying his parents. This touches upon a theme explored in Mask of Phantasm which is shown below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjAFbEP0wK4

    Act III

    Bane emerges and ignites a revolution in Gotham by revealing the lie about Dent. Tate reveals to Bruce that she is Talia and that Bane is part of the LOS. She also reveals that she no longer supports Bane because she has fallen in love with Bruce. Bruce is shocked and ends his relationship with Talia. Heartbroken, Talia promises to leave and never interfere with Gotham again but states she cannot stop Bane. Bruce is devastated at losing his first true love since Rachel but decides that Gotham needs Batman.

    Batman develops a plan to attack Bane. He launches an assault. Blake is shown tailing Batman. Batman fights Banes and loses. Batman escapes before Bane is able to finish him. Blake sees a wounded Batman who collapses outside of Bane's stronghold/lair. Blake aids Batman who instructs Blake to take him to Bruce manor. Batman reveals his identity because he is near-death and needs Alfred's help (this is a parallel to BB where Rachel needed to be saved by Batman).

    Batman recovers while the revolution grows. He learns more about Bane and builds a strong relationship with Blake.

    Finale

    A weak and damaged Batman returns to inspire hope among citizens who oppose the revolution. Queue epic fight between Bane's army and those inspired by Batman. Batman confronts Bane again but beats him through intelligent tactics by damaging his mask. Gothamites learn of Bane's defeat and are further inspired to rise against the revolution. The revolution is defeated as their leader is defeated.

    Bruce accepts he can no longer be batman due to the physical toll on his body. He still believes the city needs a symbol for hope and starts training Blake. The last shot is Blake as batman with the Gotham skyline in the background and Blake glides to the foreground (similar to the last shot of BB).

    *Edited based on feedback*
     
    #1 Sensei, Jul 22, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  2. stefan850 Registered

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    Besides the fact that your "plot" is not nearly clear enough...I'll tell you what I think.

    Fair enough, I wouldn't mind that but I still prefer to have Bruce as a recluse. It gives more weight to the idea (in Nolan's movie) that Bruce Wayne wants to die, that he has nothing to live for. If he is not a recluse he will only seem "bored".

    I don't think that if they were alive, Martha and Thomas Wayne would like their legacy to be their only son, wearing a costume and beating up criminals and villains. And I don't think that Bruce would feel that way. (I have no idea what Mask of Phantasm is, didn't click the link). Bruce not being Batman = betraying his parents legacy is just plain stupid. Sorry.


    How, why?

    Don't like this at all. Prison/Dungeon part is one of my favourite parts of TDKR, the whole Bruce Wayne arc of "having nothing to live for, fighting Bane with no fear, deep down wanting to die, ending up in the dungeon, failing to "rise", realising that he needs "fear", that he must feel "fear" to succeed and finally rising" I love that, that was done in an amazing way. One of my favourite Batman moments ever.

    So this is the same as Nolans besides the "Gothamites learn of Bane's defeat and get inspired" and technically catwoman blasted of Bane but Bruce still defeated him...don't see how this changes anything...

    Nope, sorry. I wouldn't like it if Talia escaped, I wouldn't like it if there were scenes of BRuce training Blake and Blake actually becoming Batman in front of us. I love the way Nolan ended much more.
     
  3. HolyPurpleSocks Tusi Live

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  4. Sensei Registered

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    Mask of Phatasm is an animated Batman movie by WB.

    Bruce is driven by his parent's death to become Batman for justice/vengeance. Giving up on being batman feels like a betrayal of the loss of his parents and the sacrifices they made. Bruce becomes batman because he wants to help Gotham and honour the loss of his parents. To Bruce, if he stops being batman, he is no longer honouring his parent's death. This is established canon in the Batman mythos, IMO and you should definitely watch the clip. It's one of the best Batman movie moments in the character's history.

    The motivation of Bane would be his ideological belief that Gotham is still corrupt and a cesspool. This is more an expansion of Bane's character than an expansion of the plot. I restricted myself to plot points. Besides, this is exactly what he does in TDKR by encouraging Gothamites to rebel against their oppressors.

    Fair enough about the Bane fight. I don't think the themes and conflict between Bane and Batman is clear. But if you do, that's cool.

    My version has a different fight. Batman clearly beats Bane and stops him. He uses tactics rather than force. Batman defeating bane is an allegory for gothamites defeating Bane's revolution. This isn't touched upon in TDKR. Instead it's a war between Batman's army and Bane's army and Batman does not defeat Bane with finality.

    Overall, I'm glad you enjoyed the movie's plot/theme.
     
  5. Boom I got nothin'

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    Stefan, you need to see Mask of the Phantasm.

    Now that that's out of the way, the only thing that really rubs me the wrong way about this proposed storyline is the fact that Talia just escapes in the end. For a movie that is meant to be a conclusion, that's a loose end that would most certainly need to be tied up to bring a sense of closure.
     
  6. Sensei Registered

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    Cool.

    So Boom.

    What's a better end to Talia? Batman won't kill her. Does she try to kill herself along with Batman (which is a good throwback to BB with Ras as Ghul almost dying with Batman)?
     
  7. stefan850 Registered

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    .

    I'll watch the clip.

    My understanding of Nolan's Bruce Wayne is that he wants to clean up the City and the best way to do that at that time is through "Batman", "batman" being a tool, something he uses to achieve his goal, not his actual goal. In TDKR Rachels death destroyed him and he wants to die basically, not help anyone or honour anything. Until, from that dungeon, he "rises".

    And if in Batman established canon, Bruce Wayne feels that by not being Batman he is no longer honouring his parent's death...well, to put it nicely, that sounds terrible. If someone asked Bruce Wayne "is this what your parents hoped their legacy would be? Their only son dressing up as a Bat, risking his life and fighting criminals with his bare hands?" he would say "yes" ?
    That guy (that Bruce Wayne, established Batman or whatever) is a clueless idiot.

    I guess digging deeper in to the Batman comics is not for me (read and loved Year one, TDR, Killing Joke, so-so Long Halloween and Grant Morrisons Batman and Robin...everything else I read was mostly, for me, poor quality storytelling and absolutely forgettable)
     
  8. Boom I got nothin'

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    If you want my opinion, the LoS and Talia wouldn't have been in this movie at all. With how much Nolan wanted to do in this film, these aspects just ended up being footnotes that didn't add anything truly substantial to the storyline (save for the ability to say that this movie brought things "full circle").

    Bane, through a revised backstory, would have come to despise oppressive and corrupt authority figures. The politicians, the police, the beaurocrats, and yes, the Batman. That last one is why he targets Gotham in particular. He wishes to "liberate" Gotham, pull it offline, and create his own little republic where the ordinary people are free from these institutions. So the ordinary people thrive, while the politicians, police, and beaurocrats are imprisoned and executed en masse.
     
    #8 Boom, Jul 22, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  9. Sensei Registered

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    I like your take as well. TDKR could have benefited by fewer characters but more focus on each character and more character development.

    The only reason to include the LoS and Talia is to connect TDKR to the rest of the trilogy. That being said, IMO, TDKR could have been just, if not more, successful as a stand-alone film.
     
  10. Boom I got nothin'

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    I imagine Bane as the comic-book equivalent of Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now.
     
  11. Sensei Registered

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    You're right that he wants to clean up the city but you have to ask why does he want to clean up the city...and why does he want to do it as Batman instead of Bruce Wayne?

    I think you may be confusing legacy with psychology. Bruce is not trying to continue his parents legacy. Instead, Batman is a means for Bruce to come to terms, at a psychological level, with the death of his parents. Bruce is severely damaged and tries to resolve his grief by becoming a vigilante.

    In the Mask of Phantasm. When Bruce considers to not continue as Batman, he feels he is not honouring his parents. Again, this isn't about what his parents actual want him to do. It's more about how Bruce copes with his parents' death and rationalizes his purpose in life.

    So by introducing Miranda/Talia as a new love in his life, you have a theme of Bruce questioning his own purpose in life.
     
  12. TanneRain Bane'd User

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    I really like that idea, and wasn't crazy about the LoS being included in the film, but it didn't affect my love of the film. I loved the scenes of the " child " in the prison and the images of the younger Bane. I wasn't crazy about Talia's scenes besides the couple good moments with Bane. The film could've done without Talia or the LoS for sure.
     
  13. db85usa HeHe!

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    Seconded.
     
  14. Excel O-bama-ama-ama-ay-ay

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    No. There IS a better way to do it, though. Split TDKR into two different movies. Keep all the story lines in there, but expand them into two 2 - 2 1/2 hour movies.

    FILM ONE - roughly two hours long.

    Pretty much as is, from the beginning of the film (plane sequence) through Bane's speech to Bruce in the prison. Nothing would "change", but things would be added.

    1. Flashback scene of Bruce and Miranda together prior to recluse. Play it off like Bruce was afraid to get close to Miranda, and it was part of the reason for the recluse. The scene should be long and heavy, ala Blake talking to Wayne in Wayne Manor. Add a scene with Alfred following it, where Bruce tells him his gut instinct is to stay away. Alfred will say it's a result of his bad attitude.

    Make Miranda STUNNED to see him at the masked ball, and have it end with a "it was good seeing you, Bruce".

    2. More Bruce/Alfred. Alfred spent practically the entire movie preaching to Bruce. A scene of the two of them doing something other than arguing would have been pleasant.

    3. Bit more time dedicated to Bane's background. Make Bane a well known mercenary/terrorist group leader.He is hired by Daggett to rampage the stock exchange.

    4. More time into "Batman legend" stuff. Maybe add a scene detailing how the Batman is still a large urban legend ala big foot. Perhaps cite a controversy surrounding him, for his public defeat of the joker won him many fans. But make it clear the cops consider him EXTREMELY dangerous. Perhaps flash a most wanted list with Batman and Bane on it together.

    4. Extend the action scenes. In this first film, there would be four major action scenes - each would be extended.

    A) Plane scene. Remains is.

    B) Occurs about 35 minutes into the movie. Selina Bar/Cop shoot out. They meet in a restaurant as usual where Selina leaves her purse, but they instead take Selina, by force, to a warehouse on the docks . Dialogue all the same, but the table exchange ends with "I am counting to 10" - she does not hand over the thumb print. Selina escapes, and is chased through the warehouse and docks by the man. She makes it back to the restaurant on foot - gets caught. Cell phone exchange. Police cop. more prolonged shoot out. Gordon goes into sewers, etc - everything else the same. Just about 10 more minutes of fighting with Selina. Ends around the 50 minute mark.

    C) Stock Exchange Raid and Return Of The Batman: Occurs about 65 minutes into the film. Very climactic scene. After the car tunnel sequence, Batman is chased by the dozens and dozens of police cars. The chase is about 5 minutes longer, and involves gunfire and more outrunning by Batman on his bike. He flies away, and is pursued by Gotham air support. He loses them by flying into tight tunnels. Then Catwoman with Dagget, fight on rooftops, escape, etc. Stock exchange through dropping Selina off takes about 25 minutes, so we are the 90 minute mark.

    D) Batman Vs. Bane, Round One. Occurs around the 120 minute mark. More build up. It's tougher for Batman and Catwoman to get down there. The fight lasts a little longer. It feels very, very climactic. The entire film has been building towards this fight. Batman gets his **** pushed in.

    The films ends with Bruce waking up in the prison, with Bane taunting him, promising "big plans" for Gotham.




    FILM 2

    Opens with Selina trying to escape, caught by Blake. Basically everything from that point above, in order, with a few things expanded.

    -Bruce is in the prison longer. He trains more while down there. More time between jumps. More emphasis on how bruce's spirit must "rise".

    -Bane's speech is not a montage, rather we see them happen. We see the prison escape in more detail. We see the rich being tossed from their homes in more detail. We see the depths of a real, true occupation of Gotham.

    -More emphasis on the legend of batman. people thinking it is no coincidence that just after he returned, Bane raises hell. Wonder where he is. This theme is played very heavily, emphasizing the symbol Batman is. When Bane reveals the truth about Harvey, people realize that Batman was the good guy.

    -add in random scene of Army wrangling with bane's army. It only makes sense for banes army to be tested; for the sake adding action, bane's man and the tumblers have a scene where they pwn the army tanks planes, etc.

    -slower, more detailed analysis of what happened in the pit with bane. went a little fast in the movie.

    -more scenes of gordon and the rebels figuring out ways to stop bane.

    -bruce calls Alfred to get back to gotham after escaping the pit; the two kind of make up.

    -the saving of gordon is more elaborate and cool; the bat symbol on bridge is more emphasized as pumping up the troops for the assault on bane.

    -FINALLY: The final fight between Batman and Bane is longer. Batman swoops into a clearing in the middle of the final fight, and everybody watches briefly. Batmans victory pumps up the crowd.

    everything else the same. should be about two and a half hours.

    i think that would have been a better way to do it
     
  15. Sensei Registered

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    I agree that the same plot (roughly) split into a 2 movies would be much much better than TDKR.

    But, would you still keep the bomb plot? I find this unnecessary and cliche. Why not just have the main threat to Gotham being the truth about Harvey Dent and a revolution led by Bane?
     
  16. Uroboric Forms Your Move, Creep

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    I fail to see how TDKR was lacking a cohesive narrative/theme. If anything, TDK was far more convoluted and messy than TDKR was.
     
  17. Boom I got nothin'

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    Yeah... You're going to have to explain this.

    Despite it's complexities and nuances, TDK's narrative was pretty straightforward.
     
    #17 Boom, Jul 22, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2012
  18. Sensei Registered

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    TDKR doesn't have any obvious and glaring plot holes, TBH. There are many implausible and borderline illogical plot points:
    - Blake finding out who Batman is
    - the autopilot feature of the Bat
    - Wayne Tech prototypes on Gotham Streets
    - Stock Exchange: day to night in 8 minutes

    But, it does have muddled and convoluted themes and the characters are under-developed.

    Basically, there's enough stuff happening in TDKR that nothing is truly fully developed. It's pretty much two movies combined into one.
     
  19. Doc Samson Superhero Psychiatrist

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    I think the plot itself was easily better than both the previous movies. The Joker is one of the greatest villains of all time, comic book or otherwise, and Ledger gave a masterful performance. But just on the merits of plot and story, TDK was much more straight forward than this, or even BB.
     
  20. Spuzz The Spuzziest of Spuzzes

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  21. Frodo Registered

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    Imo Nolan's overall concept of blending No Mans Land, Knightfall, Knightsend, and The Dark Knight Returns isn't a bad one , its just not executed as well as it could have been imo.

    There are characters such as Tate, Daggat, Dixon , and even Blake to an extent, whose plotlines either take away from the core characters we care about such as Alfred, Fox, and Gordon , or their plotlines go nowhere and we're left to wonder why they were even in the film. In the meanwhile, the new interesting characters such as Catwoman and Dixon are kinda pushed into the back ground when they really should be up front.

    The film presents alot of interesting ideas such as the
    Rich Poor Gap , And the city doing well based on a lie , Wayne enterprises struggling,
    but ultimately really doesn't exploit them to their full potential.

    There are some pretty big gaps in logic that can't be explained away by saying, "Oh its Batman" , "It doesn't need to be explained", " The Other films had the same problems" or "You're just Nitpicking". The final film is there. Its fair game to ask questions and point out inconsistency's like it or not .


    Ultimately, whats done is done, and while I'm really not crazy about it, TDKR does ties things up and does bound all three films together as one story. I think next to Insomnia , its probably Nolan's weakest film, but
    it gives Bruce a happy ending with a great woman, and I think we probably got the best live action version of Robin that there's ever been
     
  22. Sensei Registered

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    Agreed.

    The film should have either been split into 2 movies or have fewer new characters.

    Either Blake/Tate/Bane or Catwoman/Bane/Blake. IMO Tate is unnecessary.
     
  23. Zatanna Mistress of Magic

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    I don't want to offend, but I am honestly scratching my head in confusion over this one.
     
  24. Anno_Domini Registered

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    Not to be rude, but are you asking if your plot is better than the plot created by actual screenwriters?

    That's kinda...egotistical.
     
  25. Sensei Registered

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    lol. That's an interesting way of putting it.

    Let's frame the question another way.

    Is the plot/narrative of the TDKR the best possible plot? Are there ways of improving the plot and the themes?

    If so, what are they?

    My plot is simply one opinion. It's pretty identical to TDKR but removes catwoman, fleshes out the relationship between Bruce and Tate, and strengthens the plot point of Gothamites rising against the elites and Blake's character.
     

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