All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 2

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I understand why he kills Zod. I don't understand his emotional reaction.

Why?

Just because you are not explicity told why he reacts a certain way does not mean you cannot draw inferences about why he does do.

For instance, It could be as simple as the act of killing causes him pain and creates a state of shock.

Which, frankly, is clearly depicted right there on screen.

If it's no deeper than that,then it's still a valid emotional response to have.

There is not always a clear rhyme or reason to why people feel things.
Emotions are not purely logical in nature.

You don't get the question, don't you? Why does he cry after Zod's death?

I think you don't get my response.

He cries because he is upset. You really don't understand that?

Why doesn't he want to kill Zod?

Because he doesn't want to have to kill, period. His entire life has been more or less about saving lives, to the point where he hides what he can do because he wants to continue doing so. The movie clearly shows this.

I would understand if his compassion played a big part in the narrative. If it was established in some way. But it's not. He just saves people. Why? I don't know.

How is it somehow not established when he basically starts out saying "Why shouldn't I use my powers to save people" as a kid?

And continues to save people?

How is his compassion not a part of the narrative when he spends the entire movie up to this point saving lives instead of taking them?

I didn't say he didn't. I said his emotional reaction doesn't make any sense in context of the movie.

Except that it does. The moment does not have to directly tie into the rest of the larger themes of the film anymore than he and Lois being in love does.

Do you know how movies work?

We weren't talking about how movies work, we were talking about how you felt it was an inaccurate depiction of an emotion.

Besides, there is no one way for movies to work.

There is no one way for emotions to be portrayed. They can be portrayed in a variety of ways.

You made a statement that the emotional reaction seemingly came out of nowhere, as if this is somehow a failure to properly portray emotions, when in fact, it is arguably a more realistic and appropriate way of doing so.

A movie does not, for instance, have to engage in a call and response structure for a moment to have meaning to those watching it. In fact, a use of sudden emotion may have more impact for some than if the concept was set up or broadcast previously in a movie.

I suppose not. You can project anything you want. You can enjoy anything you want. But I'm telling why it didn't work for me. Why Superman's character and motivations weren't convincing. Why it was a shallow interpretation.

Which is all well and good. I'm not interested in why it didn't work for you. I'm interested in your statements that implied that it's somehow not an appropriate way to depict emotions.
 
I think he's asking why Supes gets upset after killing Zod, when he had no problem putting Krypton to rest. It doesn't feel earned when he screams. It's like it's put in there for the sake of being there but they didn't do a good job building it up. It's the same when Superman dies in BvS. I felt nothing. It wasn't earned. Everyone's crying and I honestly felt more sad when Franco's Harry Osborn dies in Spidey 3 compared to Superman. That's a problem.
 
I think he's asking why Supes gets upset after killing Zod, when he had no problem putting Krypton to rest. It doesn't feel earned when he screams. It's like it's put in there for the sake of being there but they didn't do a good job building it up. It's the same when Superman dies in BvS. I felt nothing. It wasn't earned. Everyone's crying and I honestly felt more sad when Franco's Harry Osborn dies in Spidey 3 compared to Superman. That's a problem.

He gets upset because it's the first time he's had to kill someone. What build up is necessary? He killed someone and it upset him. It's not rocket science. Superman's death moved me a lot. Superman had been framed, bullied, doubted, silenced, and attacked. His whole arc in the film was him trying to figure out how to be Superman in this world, and he started out believing that if he just kept saving people, things would be okay. He believed in the power of the press to make a difference, and one way he wanted to make a difference was to shine a light on what a real abuse of power in a superhero looks like. His attempt to speak up for himself ended in tragedy, and he blames himself because his naive optimism about people prevented him from seeing the dangers around him. Batman attacked him, yet Superman forgave and trusted him. Superman saved Lex from the fist of his abomination. Before he made his ultimate sacrifice, Superman made it clear that Earth was his world. He spent the film seeing himself as a rejected outsider, and in the end, he accepts and love Earth as his home. He dies for humanity even though humanity has rejected him. That is powerful stuff, and it made me weep. Because it was an act of so much love. It was a sacrifice borne out of self-acceptance, hope, and love. And it changed the world. How can one not be moved?
 
I think he's asking why Supes gets upset after killing Zod, when he had no problem putting Krypton to rest. It doesn't feel earned when he screams. It's like it's put in there for the sake of being there but they didn't do a good job building it up. It's the same when Superman dies in BvS. I felt nothing. It wasn't earned. Everyone's crying and I honestly felt more sad when Franco's Harry Osborn dies in Spidey 3 compared to Superman. That's a problem.

Franko's Osborne featured in 3 movies whereas we saw Zod in just One movie, apart from that, Franko's Osborne had cultivated sympathy in the minds of viewers as he was a friend of Peter Parker.

Zod was no friend of Clark Kent. As to why Superman screamed after killing Zod, the reasons could be -

1. The Last survivor of krypton on Earth (apart from Superman himself) and his link to his past Civilization was dead.

2. Superman felt bad as he hads never kiiled anyone before and never thought that he would have to do such a thing.

3. He felt bad for not being able to convince Zod to give up the idea of Terraforming Earth and because he failed to convince Zod about his idea to coexist on Earth, after due process of natural acclimatization.
 
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It doesn't bother me in principle either. I agree-- He did what he had to do (although, it could've been staged much better). But that was based on the assumption that it was going somewhere in the sequel, and it just didn't. Combine that with being pretty pointless to his arc in the movie (there was nothing about him really treasuring all life and thus being forced to kill was the ultimate test/failure/whatever). The only thing it maybe kinda sorta touches on was his choosing humans over Kryptonians... Which was already accomplished with the Phantom Zone and the "Krypton had its chance!" moment.

My problem isn't that he killed someone. It's that it was kind of poorly staged and it served no actual purpose to the story.

I agree that the follow up was poor, but I put that on BvS rather than MoS.
 
Would DCEU's Superman cry about terrorists who kill children? I don't understand his moral compass at all. I don't get where this ultimate goodness comes from.

Where does anyone's ultimate goodness come from? Why does Steve Rogers have the morality that he does? Is it nurture or nature? If you believe it's nature, then you believe that people can't change and some people are born evil. So, if it's understood that generally ALL goodness comes from a combination of nature and nurture with nurture being the deciding factor, then that narrows down Superman's goodness as the result of a combination of his heredity and his upbringing.

Martha (and Jonathan) taught Clark, through his own adoption, to embrace that which is unknown or "other" with love and courage. Jonathan teaches Clark, through his own actions, that protecting life is important, but he also instills in Clark an understanding of how singular decisions can have wide-ranging consequences. He's told Clark stories, like the one Clark recalls on the mountaintop in BvS, about how a choice to save save his farm as a child ended up harming the farm and the horses of another's farm. When Clark doesn't fight back against his school bullies, Jonathan and Clark examine it from a moral lens:

Clark: I wanted to hit that kid. I wanted to hit him bad.
Jonathan: I know you did. I mean......part of me even wanted you to, but then what? Make you feel any better? You just have to decide what kind of man you want to grow up to be, Clark. Because whoever that man is, good character or bad, he's gonna change the world.​

Again, emphasis is placed on how Clark's moral decisions will be weighed both in the micro and the macro contexts. When Jonathan sacrifices his life in MoS because he felt that if Clark had been exposed to save his one life -- one selfish decision from Clark -- it could doom a world and a son who weren't ready for the burdens of a savior hero, he was giving Clark the time to do exactly what he had just been arguing with Clark in the car before the storm hit:

Clark: I just wanna do something useful with my life.
Jonathan: So farming, feeding people. That's not useful?
Clark: I didn't say that. [...]
Jonathan: We're not your parents. But we've been doing the best we can. And we've been making this up as we go along, so maybe our best isn't good enough anymore.​

This is the point where Clark begins his journey to receive more nurturing from his journey of self-discovery. Growing up, Jonathan had suggested to Clark that he was on Earth for a reason, and that one day he would have to discover what that reason was. That nurturing alone would fill you with a sense of purpose, and it was only enhanced when Clark learned more about humanity and himself from years as a wandering guardian angel culminating in meeting Jor-El who taught him about himself and his purpose:

Jor-El: Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious. The element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something mother than what society had intended for him or her? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief, Kal.[...] You're as much a child of Earth now as you are of Krypton. You can embody the best of both worlds. A dream your mother and I dedicated our lives to preserve. The people of Earth are different from us, it's true. But, ultimately, I believe that's a good thing. They won't necessarily make the same mistakes we did. Not if you guide them, Kal. Not if you give them hope. That's what this symbol means. The symbol of the house of El means hope. Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief in the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them.​

Notice the continued themes of nature versus nurture, which distills down to the idea that character comes from both and this applies to the individual and to society. Clark is the product of his Kryptonian genes and his upbringing on Earth. Believing in the power of choice and in nurture, Jor-El believes and encourages Clark to believe that others (humans) can also be nurtured (taught) to be better.

So, there you go. Clark's goodness comes from the interaction of his nature with his nurture, and that nurture instilled in him the belief in himself has a man with a purpose to create great change and to inspire hope but also a man who has to be prudent in his decision making. He is taught to love and to care for others with an open heart and altruistically in part because he was loved and cared for by the Kents (and accepted by Lois) in this way.
 
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Matthew Vaughn is in early talks to direct Man of Steel 2. WB is actually hiring some quality directors for this next wave of films.
 
Matthew Vaughn is in early talks to direct Man of Steel 2. WB is actually hiring some quality directors for this next wave of films.

Its from Collider. Probably complete BS. Wouldnt believe it unless we hear it from real trades like Variety,THR or Deadline.
 
Matthew Vaughn is in early talks to direct Man of Steel 2. WB is actually hiring some quality directors for this next wave of films.

I would say that Ayer and Jenkins are quality directors. I think the issue with Ayer is perhaps him not suiting the characters at his disposal, or perhaps superhero movies in general (him having to rush the script surely did not help things). We will see how Jenkins does this summer. Getting quality directors that have had previous success with superhero movies and put out very strong ones, or movies that are similar to superhero movies, would definitely be a step in the right direction though. I was happy about them getting Reeves to direct Batman, for example. Hopefully Vaughn being interested is true.
 
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I've watched the new WW trailer two or theee times now, and it failed to excite me each time. But it doesn't look bad at all, so I'll definitely be attending a matinee.
 
Matthew Vaughn is in early talks to direct Man of Steel 2. WB is actually hiring some quality directors for this next wave of films.

Oh my god if he gets it I will freak. He's my number one choice.
 
We were just talking about Vaughn the other day!

Yeah we were, fingers crossed it happens.

They're obviously looking for directors though which is fantastic. My feeling that MOS2 is further along than we thought (based on many things) looks like it's true and not just because I wanted it to happen either despite what some people have thought. Add to that it's clear WBs are clearly still passionate about the character.
 
Yeah we were, fingers crossed it happens.

They're obviously looking for directors though which is fantastic. My feeling that MOS2 is further along than we thought (based on many things) looks like it's true and not just because I wanted it to happen either despite what some people have thought. Add to that it's clear WBs are clearly still passionate about the character.

Shhh, you know the 'passion about character' line is banned and not popular.... :cwink:
 
Yeah we were, fingers crossed it happens.

They're obviously looking for directors though which is fantastic. My feeling that MOS2 is further along than we thought (based on many things) looks like it's true and not just because I wanted it to happen either despite what some people have thought. Add to that it's clear WBs are clearly still passionate about the character.

If it's true I'm more than willing to admit I was wrong about MOS 2. I'm still a little skeptical and would feel more confident if it was coming from that guy from Variety. I'm cautiously optimistic but don't want to get burned.
 
Which is why it took me, and probably some kids in the theater, aback when it went down with Zod's death.

No one thought murder was in Superman's train of thought. I would of bought that scene, if Superman was mortally wounded or somehow incapacitated temporarily.

But Superman had the "high ground" and still chose to kill.

That's your interpretation of the character based on previous portrayals not the one being set by DCEU.
 
If it's true I'm more than willing to admit I was wrong about MOS 2. I'm still a little skeptical and would feel more confident if it was coming from that guy from Variety. I'm cautiously optimistic but don't want to get burned.

I think it probably is true that they want him but it doesn't mean Vaughn will sign on.
 
That's your interpretation of the character based on previous portrayals not the one being set by DCEU.
So you don't see anything inherently wrong with that interpretation that's so extremly different to every other depiction of the same character?
 
So you don't see anything inherently wrong with that interpretation that's so extremly different to every other depiction of the same character?

The killing is the only extremely different thing,it did lay foundation for the No kill rule for him in this universe.
 
So you don't see anything inherently wrong with that interpretation that's so extremly different to every other depiction of the same character?

Jumping it to say, for my part, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with that interpretation. I think no-kill rules are stupid. Because there are times when it would be right to kill. There are situations when there is no third option...there is no other way. One of the most controversial characterizations of Superman during the Pre-Flashpoint/New 52 era was Greg Rucka's take on Superman's moral self-righteousness when Wonder Woman killed Max Lord to prevent him from mind controlling Superman to become a dangerous monster. It was the right thing to do, but Superman was awful for his judgmental attitude.
 
The killing is the only extremely different thing,it did lay foundation for the No kill rule for him in this universe.
And there's the problem. Superman's foundation for a 'No Kill' rule should be, that it's wrong. Not because he killed once and didn't like it, but because it goes against everything he believes in, ahgainst everything he was taught, against all his moral values. From the start.
Yet, Snyder's cynicism has no place for a person that's a priori good. He's way closer to a Nitzschean ideal than Superman should be. And therefore we get a very problematic misrepresantation of that iconic character by establishing that Superman needed an event to come up with an idea and rule that should have always been there in the first place.
 
Jumping it to say, for my part, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with that interpretation. I think no-kill rules are stupid. Because there are times when it would be right to kill. There are situations when there is no third option...there is no other way. One of the most controversial characterizations of Superman during the Pre-Flashpoint/New 52 era was Greg Rucka's take on Superman's moral self-righteousness when Wonder Woman killed Max Lord to prevent him from mind controlling Superman to become a dangerous monster. It was the right thing to do, but Superman was awful for his judgmental attitude.
Killing is never (or should never be) 'the right thing to do'. That moral standard is what makes Superman Superman.
 
And there's the problem. Superman's foundation for a 'No Kill' rule should be, that it's wrong. Not because he killed once and didn't like it, but because it goes against everything he believes in, ahgainst everything he was taught, against all his moral values. From the start.
Yet, Snyder's cynicism has no place for a person that's a priori good. He's way closer to a Nitzschean ideal than Superman should be. And therefore we get a very problematic misrepresantation of that iconic character by establishing that Superman needed an event to come up with an idea and rule that should have always been there in the first place.

Superman killing Zod did not create a foundation for a no-kill rule in the DCCU. There is no canon to support that reading regardless of the intent. The storytelling just isn't there. As far as we know, this Superman isn't against killing, and I say thank goodness. The no-kill rule is silly. The rule shouldn't be there in the first place because the rule shouldn't be there at all. Moral values? Is it moral to let a family of innocents die rather than kill an evil man to save their lives? That's moral?! Good people -- moral people -- kill sometimes to save lives. Cops, soldiers, and even regular citizens sometimes kill others in self-defense of themselves or others. Of course, it is important to look for another way. Superman should try to avoid killing at all costs, and he certainly shouldn't kill as an act of justice or revenge. But to save lives when there are no easy outs or easy answers? Superman can kill and still be good and moral. Suggesting otherwise doesn't make any sense to me at all.
 
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