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[BH/HHH]

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[BH/HHH]

Yeah he should've went with his grounded version but what's done is done, at least he owned up to it

https://***********/DavidAyerMovies/status/822948443110842369

As I just said in the JL thread, Squad wouldn't work with the Joker as the villain. The Squad are created as a direct response to an evil Superman level threat which the Joker as crazy and deranged as is is nowhere near. If the Joker was up to something I'm pretty sure Waller would have just tipped off Batman as she did with Deadshot.

 

[Boom]

The "Superman level threat" is precisely what killed Suicide Squad on a conceptual level for me. These guys should be taking on terrorist cells, drug cartels, government leaders, and the occassional metahuman (but one that is reasonably within their capabilities of handling).

I really liked the Antiphon/Onslaught rumors when SS first went into development. Something like that would've been far preferable to "Clown girl with baseball bat takes on 'Next Superman.'"

I do agree that making The Joker the main villain is still a mistake.

 

[StarWars]

The "Superman level threat" is precisely what killed Suicide Squad on a conceptual level for me. These guys should be taking on terrorist cells, drug cartels, government leaders, and the occassional metahuman (but one that is reasonably within their capabilities of handling).

I really liked the Antiphon/Onslaught rumors when SS first went into development. Something like that would've been far preferable to "Clown girl with baseball bat takes on 'Next Superman.'"

I do agree that making The Joker the main villain is still a mistake.

Suicide Squad has bigger issues than BvS. LMAO.....Oh DC struke out in 2016.

This woman makes the Suicide Squad to counter super power villains, but accidently creates a super power villain. So the whole movie is her fault to begin with. If she didn't even make the Suicide Squad, there would be no Suicide Squad. And then they recruit the 'top' people, but what is Harley Quinn going to do against two ultra powerful super villains. Shes just some crazy person with a bat. And Jai Courtney has a boomarang. The character decisions were so awful. And you have the black woman suffering underwater, and then a scene later she walks in perfectly fine, not a drop of water on her. The whole movie was laughable and stupid.

They should have just made a Harley / Joker main film. Those scenes were the only thing that the audience agreed as a whole was actually decent.

 

[Erzengel]

I think DC hate is something created by fans who don't like people putting down something they like. I don't think it exists. The Nolan films are universally praised and they are DC. It's all about the quality. Make a good coherent film and people will probably appreciate it. I know I would. The rumors get traction because the film's are loved and hated and given the track record, rumors hold weight even if they probably shouldn't.

The movie made it's mark on a niche group of fans. And when those fans see something they enjoy and love, it's hard for them to see why the critics trashed their films. I don't know why the easiest conclusion is there's a conspiracy and not, it's a enjoyable movie just for a certain sect.

 

[Boom]

Technically speaking, the team's mission was to extract Waller from the city, not to engage the Enchantress. But considering this team was put together specifically to combat the "next Superman," doesn't it stand to reason that they would've been called in to deal with her anyway? That was the entire point of Task Force X.

And I am sorry, but there is no amount of mental stretching in the world that will ever convince me that a clown girl with a baseball bat, a very strong crocodile man, an escape artist, and a guy with boomerangs are more effective than a group of highly trained SEALs with automatic weapons. And considering they saw fit to send in a SEAL team anyway, the inclusion of the Squad was almost entirely pointless. The only two worth a damn in the entire affair were Deadshot and El Diablo, and only when El Diablo actually decided to do something.

The Suicide Squad was originally put together to take on covert missions that were morally gray enough that the US government didn't want direct involvement, and dangerous enough that it didn't want to risk its own soldiers. Send these criminals in to take on our dirty work, and if they fail, it's no skin off our ass. Take out that terrorist cell. Assassinate that foreign government official who goes against America's interests. Ayer is right. A more grounded story was the way to go.

I don't fault the film for trying to be fun, and these larger-than-life characters should have larger-than-life personalities. But at the end of the day, they are murderous, conniving, backstabbing, awful human beings. Trying to hero-ize them misses the point entirely in my book.

"I want my daughter to know that her daddy isn't a piece of ****." Yeah, you still kill people for money, brah.

 

[BH/HHH]

The "Superman level threat" is precisely what killed Suicide Squad on a conceptual level for me. These guys should be taking on terrorist cells, drug cartels, government leaders, and the occassional metahuman (but one that is reasonably within their capabilities of handling).

I really liked the Antiphon/Onslaught rumors when SS first went into development. Something like that would've been far preferable to "Clown girl with baseball bat takes on 'Next Superman.'"

I do agree that making The Joker the main villain is still a mistake.

But the Squad is made to deal with a Superman level threat. So it has to be someone powerful. I guess they could have changed the concept and have it be more about the Squad been expendable so they do the dirty jobs that they don't want to risk good soldiers on.

 

[Boom]

By no means is this squad capable of dealing with Superman-level threats. The only one out of the group who actually fits that bill is El Diablo. The reason the Squad was able to take out Enchantress in the movie was due to outright nonsensical writing. Nothing more.

And that's why the movie failed with me.

Waller: "We're putting together a team to take on Superman-level threats."
Government Guy: "Okay, who do you got?"
Waller: "El Diablo. A gangbanger who can channel the power of an ancient fire demon."
Government Guy: "Okay, sounds good."
Waller: "Deadshot. The world's best sharpshooter."
Government Guy: "Wait, wasn't Superman impervious to bullets?"
Waller: "Harley Quinn. An unhinged, psychotic clown with a baseball bat."
Government Guy: "What's her special ability?"
Waller: "She has none."
Government Guy: "Wait a second."
Waller: "Captain Boomerang. He throws boomerangs and that's basically it."
Government Guy: "Hold on, Amanda..."
Waller: "Slipknot. HE'S AN ESCAPE ARTIST. ROPES AND STUFF."
Government Guy: "Against the next Superman? I don't think..."
Waller: "And then there's Killer Croc. He's a man with above-average strength and an extreme skin condition. Together, I believe there's nothing these bad guys can't do."
Government Guy: "Except maybe, you know, taking on someone like Superman."

 

[BH/HHH]

That's precisely what I mean.

And by no means is this squad capable of dealing with Superman-level threats. The only one out of the group who actually fits that bill is El Diablo. The reason the Squad was able to take out Enchantress in the movie was due to outright nonsensical writing. Nothing more.

Well that's neither here nor there with regards to the writing. But I agree that team probably would struggle to take on a Superman level threat but if they fail, they fail. They're obviously more equipped than just standard soldiers that's for sure. In any case I'm talking about the premise of the film, only way I think you can keep that premise and have the Squad take on a villain or villains that aren't a Supernan level threat is if they get used to rescue Waller in the first place. The mission becomes extraction then and it doesn't matter why the team were designed to be put together in the first place. I know in the film they kind if did that but I'm talking if that were the movies main plot and say the Joker has her.

 

[Boom]

How is Harley Quinn more equipped than a SEAL with military weapons at their disposal?

 

[BH/HHH]

How is Harley Quinn more equipped than a SEAL with military weapons at their disposal?

She's probably not but she's certainly more expendable. Equipped was probably a poor choice of words.

In any case I don't want to argue about it. I'm merely pointing out that the team in the film were designed as a team to deal with a Superman level threat because they were the worst of the worst and expendable. If you put then against a more grounded villain (or villains) then you change the premise. That is the point I'm making here, not whether it was a good or bad decision simply that the films premise was that and that's all my final words on the matter.

 

[MbJ]

The "Superman level threat" is precisely what killed Suicide Squad on a conceptual level for me. These guys should be taking on terrorist cells, drug cartels, government leaders, and the occassional metahuman (but one that is reasonably within their capabilities of handling).

Yup. I saw a great analysis where the writer was frustrated with the movie because he felt this could've been a very unique, novel concept, and then they wasted it by doing the same basic story/threat every superhero movie in the last 17 years has done.

If you want a perfect illustration, the recent "I Am Suicide" arc from Tom King's Batman is a perfect template. Evil supervillain dictator has a heavily guarded private island. Batman puts together a team of dangerous but expendable villains to infiltrate it. Chaos and action ensues. Boom. Get that same premise (with Waller instead of Batman obviously) and you've got your movie.

By no means is this squad capable of dealing with Superman-level threats. The only one out of the group who actually fits that bill is El Diablo. The reason the Squad was able to take out Enchantress in the movie was due to outright nonsensical writing. Nothing more.

That's basically it. You can say they had to use Enchantress because the Squad was made to fight elite superhuman threats like the Justice League, but what people are saying is that they shouldn't have been.

 

[misslane38]

By no means is this squad capable of dealing with Superman-level threats. The only one out of the group who actually fits that bill is El Diablo. The reason the Squad was able to take out Enchantress in the movie was due to outright nonsensical writing. Nothing more.

But you contradict your bold and absolutist claim one sentence after making it. El Diablo was part of the team. Enchantress was designed to be a part of the team. It would have been a mix of superpowered people and regular people. Someone like Harley, would probably be useful against a threat that was more psychological, as she could mess with their heads or get under their skin. Meanwhile, she's capable of defending herself to some degree. It's not non-sensical that the Squad was able to defeat Enchantress. She used magic. They used magic. They gained access to her heart and crushed it. Even Superman would probably need some help against Enchantress given his vulnerability to magic. It seems you're only saying it's non-sensical not because it doesn't make general sense, but because it happening conflicts with the argument you're trying to make. I think Ayer's mistaken to think that making Joker the villain would have improved his film.

 

[misslane38]

Yup. I saw a great analysis where the writer was frustrated with the movie because he felt this could've been a very unique, novel concept, and then they wasted it by doing the same basic story/threat every superhero movie in the last 17 years has done.

So it makes it more novel to do a threat that non-superhero movies have done for an equally long period of time, if not longer? Pretty much everything has been done before.

If you want a perfect illustration, the recent "I Am Suicide" arc from Tom King's Batman is a perfect template. Evil supervillain dictator has a heavily guarded private island. Batman puts together a team of dangerous but expendable villains to infiltrate it. Chaos and action ensues. Boom. Get that same premise (with Waller instead of Batman obviously) and you've got your movie.

Guarded with what? Because if it isn't the superpowered and the supernatural, then Waller's team would have easily defeated it, especially with someone like Enchantress who showed in her introduction at the meeting that she could get into the heavily guarded area holding secret plans of a foreign power in the blink of an eye.

That's basically it. You can say they had to use Enchantress because the Squad was made to fight elite superhuman threats like the Justice League, but what people are saying is that they shouldn't have been.

Why?

 

[Boom]

But you contradict your bold and absolutist claim one sentence after making it. El Diablo was part of the team. Enchantress was designed to be a part of the team. It would have been a mix of superpowered people and regular people. Someone like Harley, would probably be useful against a threat that was more psychological, as she could mess with their heads or get under their skin. Meanwhile, she's capable of defending herself to some degree. It's not non-sensical that the Squad was able to defeat Enchantress. She used magic. They used magic. They gained access to her heart and crushed it. Even Superman would probably need some help against Enchantress given his vulnerability to magic. It seems you're only saying it's non-sensical not because it doesn't make general sense, but because it happening conflicts with the argument you're trying to make. I think Ayer's mistaken to think that making Joker the villain would have improved his film.

And I find all of that to be bad, convenient writing. But thank you for sharing your opinion.

 

[misslane38]

And I find all of that to be bad, convenient writing. But thank you for sharing your opinion.

You're welcome. Too bad you seem indifferent to defending yours. Agree to disagree, I guess?

 

[MbJ]

So it makes it more novel to do a threat that non-superhero movies have done for an equally long period of time, if not longer?

Yes

Guarded with what?

Goats.

Why?

Goats.

You're welcome. Too bad you seem indifferent to defending yours. Agree to disagree, I guess?

Can I ask why you feel the need to interrogate anyone who ever disagrees with you about a movie? You're not the police. People are allowed to dislike a movie you like without writing you an essay.

 

[Boom]

You're welcome. Too bad you seem indifferent to defending yours. Agree to disagree, I guess?

I've shared my thoughts on the film and stand by them. Agree to disagree.

 

[Timebomb]

Suicide Squad has bigger issues than BvS. LMAO.....Oh DC struke out in 2016.

This woman makes the Suicide Squad to counter super power villains, but accidently creates a super power villain. So the whole movie is her fault to begin with. If she didn't even make the Suicide Squad, there would be no Suicide Squad. And then they recruit the 'top' people, but what is Harley Quinn going to do against two ultra powerful super villains. Shes just some crazy person with a bat. And Jai Courtney has a boomarang. The character decisions were so awful. And you have the black woman suffering underwater, and then a scene later she walks in perfectly fine, not a drop of water on her. The whole movie was laughable and stupid.

They should have just made a Harley / Joker main film. Those scenes were the only thing that the audience agreed as a whole was actually decent.

More Joker would have made me vomit. I would love to have the Joker the main villain in a SS movie, but this, I don't know who Leto was trying to play.

 

[MbJ]

Agreed. A grounded threat and plot would've helped immensely but not this version of the Joker.

 

[misslane38]

Can I ask why you feel the need to interrogate anyone who ever disagrees with you about a movie? You're not the police. People are allowed to dislike a movie you like without writing you an essay.

I didn't ask anyone to write an essay. I didn't write an essay, for example. I wrote a paragraph. I like to explain my point of view and support it with evidence, and I like when others do the same. It helps both of us understand each other better. Sharing ideas and elaborating on them is, in my opinion, the only way to have a real discussion about anything. Relax. There's no need to be hyperbolic. Police? Are you serious? I never once said no one is entitled to like or dislike something because of word count.

 

[BH/HHH]

I loved Leto's Joker, more would have been great IMO

 

[MbJ]

Relax.

I am. I'm not the one challenging everyone to quantify why they dislike a movie I like.

 

[The Joker]

By no means is this squad capable of dealing with Superman-level threats. The only one out of the group who actually fits that bill is El Diablo. The reason the Squad was able to take out Enchantress in the movie was due to outright nonsensical writing. Nothing more.

And that's why the movie failed with me.

Waller: "We're putting together a team to take on Superman-level threats."
Government Guy: "Okay, who do you got?"
Waller: "El Diablo. A gangbanger who can channel the power of an ancient fire demon."
Government Guy: "Okay, sounds good."
Waller: "Deadshot. The world's best sharpshooter."
Government Guy: "Wait, wasn't Superman impervious to bullets?"
Waller: "Harley Quinn. An unhinged, psychotic clown with a baseball bat."
Government Guy: "What's her special ability?"
Waller: "She has none."
Government Guy: "Wait a second."
Waller: "Captain Boomerang. He throws boomerangs and that's basically it."
Government Guy: "Hold on, Amanda..."
Waller: "Slipknot. HE'S AN ESCAPE ARTIST. ROPES AND STUFF."
Government Guy: "Against the next Superman? I don't think..."
Waller: "And then there's Killer Croc. He's a man with above-average strength and an extreme skin condition. Together, I believe there's nothing these bad guys can't do."
Government Guy: "Except maybe, you know, taking on someone like Superman."

Surprised it took Ayer this long to come out and admit the flaws.

More Joker would have made me vomit. I would love to have the Joker the main villain in a SS movie, but this, I don't know who Leto was trying to play.

Exactly. If THAT version in SS was the main villain, it would have been just as insufferable. However if they rewrite the character, change his visual look, and Leto improves his performance, then I welcome a proper version of the Joker as the main villain with open arms.

 

[misslane38]

I am. I'm not the one challenging everyone to quantify why they dislike a movie I like.

I literally ended my post with an agree to disagree. I wasn't making demands or threats, but rather sharing my disappointment that I wouldn't be able to better appreciate someone's different perspective because it lacked evident critical thinking and support. Anyone is free to dislike a movie and say so, but by not explaining why, it's harder for those with a different perspective to understand or agree. If that isn't something that said person cares about, then it's all good. As I said, agreeing to disagree is an option I am okay with, which is why I'm offering the same to you right now; so this thread can stop focusing on me and the nature of posts and refocus on the films themselves.