All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 95

[sabetoonth]

So I was just thinking about stuff(I don't even remember right now). But one might be ale to draw some parallels between the end fight of MOS and Hercules' battle with the Nemean Lion. Most notably the strength of the fighters and the method the hero wins.

 

[Nemeres]

Man, reading these Dawn of the Planet of the Apes reviews I keep imagining a scenario in which Matt Reeves - a reported contender before Snyder got picked - helmed Man of Steel instead. As much as I've made my peace with MOS as an enormously flawed but overall adequate Superman film, I can only sigh, sigh and sigh. If reviews (and quality) had been similar to those of DOTPOTA, the DC filmverse would be in a much more positive place than it is right now, to say the least.

 

[Shikamaru]

Man, reading these Dawn of the Planet of the Apes reviews I keep imagining a scenario in which Matt Reeves - a reported contender before Snyder got picked - helmed Man of Steel instead. As much as I've made my peace with MOS as an enormously flawed but overall adequate Superman film, I can only sigh, sigh and sigh. If reviews (and quality) had been similar to those of DOTPOTA, the DC filmverse would be in a much more positive place than it is right now, to say the least.

Inb4stop*****ingaboutmos

 

[STARMAN]

Looks like MOS kept it's June box office record.

 

[Mysteryman]

Good to hear .

 

[JTStarkiller]

I decided to recreate the Comic Con trailer from 2012 since I love it so much. It's not 100% accurate, but it's pretty damn close. Hope you guys enjoy watching it in 1080p.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGpFdJYMAY[/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGpFdJYMAY

 

[sf2]

Looks like MOS kept it's June box office record.

ya, surprisingly. i thought transformers 4 and TASM 2 would surely break it... end up both doing less than MOS domestically. wow.

 

[Batmannerism]

Super dudes ! If you can get this link (if it isn't blocked in your countries)
it is simply the most awesome remix of MOS' main themes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joQWMecJmDk&index=1&list=PLgsHqPJlzQaLS2S8rv9rio_ojYF0rLYvj

I rave about this remix, because I've used it for work and study this year
and it always gets me through - with some pretty amazing results as well.

Hope you can download it and hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

And, in case I haven't said it enough times, IMO MOS is pure awesomeness
and the perfect Superman film for the 21st century, I rank it equal
with Superman the Movie.

Man I love that film. Peace out Super-fans !

 

[Nemeres]

So this is a ghost town, but it's where this belongs. I watched the film again with an open mind, really hoping to "forgive" its flaws and let the awesomeness override everything in time for the upcoming BVS trailer. But it's just beyond me. As snobbish as it sounds, I genuinely think this is a film you can only call "great" by having an uncommon tendency towards hyperbole. It's that flawed.

• Krypton's storylines: muddled as ****.

Spoiler

What are Zod's issues with the "flawed bloodlines"? Movie never says. What is this alleged incompetence and "pointless debates" he accuses the council of? Movie never says. So if he's supposed to have a genuine and clear reason for wanting to take over other than being the villain, it's just not there on the screen. Clarity of intentions in the characters is absent right from Scene #2.

Jor-El's conviction that evacuating is not even remotely a possibility: simply shoehorned in favor of having the codex as a plot point. "We're already dead." he says. Every man, woman and child needs to die WHY again? Even if space travel was abandoned, they do have a ****ing Phantom Zone. He says his naturally-born kid is "the only hope" for their race... but why? Why does that justify apathy towards the deaths of every single living person on the planet, why is the only "hope" simply recreating Krypton somewhere else? Other versions of Jor-El do care about this, why doesn't this one? Because of plot. Because of codex. Just because.

And the crown jewel. Lara? Total dummy. After Jor-El dies she could have kept trying to convince the council to do something. She doesn't. All she does is dress nicely for stuff and shed tears silently. So much for intelligent, proactive women. Her hubby dies and she's suddenly a helpless and useless dead woman walking. She has also all this extra time to go after her son and stay alive for his sake, considering that she has no idea of what will become of him. She doesn't. Then she has Zod vow, to her face, that he'll find Kal-El and kill him. She knows that being sent off planet will enable him to stay alive, whereas she will die. And she still lets it happen. Without a single peep. Dumb, dumb character.

• After Superman: The Movie - and having at their disposal several great takes on Superman's origin, such as Birthright and others - I was positive that they would go out of their way to portray a more proactive, decisive Superman. Proactive towards his place in the world, his decision to become a hero. Yet what they do here is exactly what STM had already done: a lost Clark encounters his ghost father, who gives him the necessary info, instructions and even the costume. He walks out of the Fortress already being Superman... out of someone else's initiative. They could have created a fresh take on the character's personality, someone who feels real, dynamic, intelligent, his own man. Nope. This is a sad drifter who waits until the age of 33 to be his full beneficial self, and only because someone else told him to. Big wasted opportunity. And sad, too. It's a sad life that this Superman has led.

• Jonathan Kent's death. Under that layer of wannabe philosophy lies a core of simple stupidity. The 60-year-old father doing the running and saving while the superpowered son takes cover. Then he just watches while Jon runs into a tornado to save a dog. And then he waits until the last possible second to go help, only to obey once that he's told not to. I watched the film three times in the theater. That scene got a scoff every single time. It's cheap, forced, dumb writing. A bullcrap scene through and through.

• Superman flies villains into populated zones not once. Not twice. But ****ing thrice. He flies Zod into downtown Smallville, flies Faora into the IHOP restaurant, flies Zod into the train station. That's not just a rookie Superman. There's another word for it.

• Pacing: a mess. It's compelling enough until it gets Superman aboard Zod's ship, then most of that stretch is sterile and boring. Lois as a videogame character, Crowe doing hand things, ugh. Then it jumps to the relentless Smallville battle, and after that almost immediately to the even bigger climax. When people call MOS "big but boring", this is why.

• This movie wants to be about hope. It's not. It tries to be, but at no point does the "You'll be an ideal to strive towards" theme pay off. Superman never comes down to the level of humans to interact with them and deliver his message. All that his "message" comes down to is punching, fighting. If a movie wants to be about something and isn't, I know what you call that.

• Superman does save the world by the end. He does it by being a human wrecking ball, but still. He defeats the villains. But people don't seem to get it, it's not about the destruction itself. From this editorial:

Spoiler

Because Superman is not present during the attack (he's on the exact opposite side of the world battling another Kryptonian threat), [...] the movie's script stacks its deck against Superman: it doesn't give him a chance to (save human life). And I call shenanigans on that. Yes, of course Superman is going to fail sometimes. Yes, of course people will die under his watch. But a movie, working hard so to convince us that he's the best of the best and he'll protect us, that does not give Kal-El a chance, a scene, to do so...is not my Superman movie. And the despair and fear of a scene that reminds me of 9/11, which doesn't give a chance of a blue and red-garbed man of tomorrow swooping down from the sky to help, misses the point of a Superman story. And that feeling of real life terror combined with the hopelessness of no aid from the movie's hero is what disturbed me, scared me, depressed me, and it broke my enjoyment.

I wanna buy that guy many beers. "Well said" just doesn't cover it.

• Not a single scene is devoted to setting up Clark as a journalist. Not once do they show him writing or showing a tendency towards that line of work, not even reading a damn newspaper. Yet they still see it fit to end the film with Clark having a job at the DP. Great writing right there.

........

MOS is a weak, unbalanced film with little intelligence to it and no thematic pay-off. It's a significant movie and a problematic movie; that combination will have people debating it until forever. But this is my take on it and I'm really glad I took the time to put it on the record.

 

[Dr.]

• Krypton's storylines: muddled as ****.

Spoiler

What are Zod's issues with the "flawed bloodlines"? Movie never says. What is this alleged incompetence and "pointless debates" he accuses the council of? Movie never says. So if he's supposed to have a genuine and clear reason for wanting to take over other than being the villain, it's just not there on the screen. Clarity of intentions in the characters is absent right from Scene #2.

Jor-El's conviction that evacuating is not even remotely a possibility: simply shoehorned in favor of having the codex as a plot point. "We're already dead." he says. Every man, woman and child needs to die WHY again? Even if space travel was abandoned, they do have a ****ing Phantom Zone. He says his naturally-born kid is "the only hope" for their race... but why? Why does that justify apathy towards the deaths of every single living person on the planet, why is the only "hope" simply recreating Krypton somewhere else? Other versions of Jor-El do care about this, why doesn't this one? Because of plot. Because of codex. Just because.

And the crown jewel. Lara? Total dummy. After Jor-El dies she could have kept trying to convince the council to do something. She doesn't. All she does is dress nicely for stuff and shed tears silently. So much for intelligent, proactive women. Her hubby dies and she's suddenly a helpless and useless dead woman walking. She has also all this extra time to go after her son and stay alive for his sake, considering that she has no idea of what will become of him. She doesn't. Then she has Zod vow, to her face, that he'll find Kal-El and kill him. She knows that being sent off planet will enable him to stay alive, whereas she will die. And she still lets it happen. Without a single peep. Dumb, dumb character.

Traditionally - and for example - Jor-El is unable to convince the Science Council of Krypton’s doom. And this “explains” why there’s no evacuation plan in place. Fair enough if you don’t find this plausible. But such criticisms are properly directed at the Krypton mythos in general - as it has existed for decades. I.e., they're not at all specific to MOS.

As for Zod’s motivation… Well, he’s the bad guy. So by one pretext or another, he has to see Superman as his mortal enemy. And methinks the Codex “MacGuffin” is as good a reason as any.

 

[shauner111]

MOS is way better than Superboy Returns. But the main problems are the acting (it's fine most of the time but Michael Shannon and Amy Adams look like average actors which is a crime). The writing, dialogue. Even though the concept/story itself is very good. The cinematography. And yes the visuals are fantastic but once you get into the final act, you're looking at a video game, it's barely a movie anymore.

I love the first 20 minutes on Krypton but when it gets back to earth, i just feel sorry for the actors. They're trying too hard to make you feel emotional towards certain characters but they make you dislike Pa Kent and you see Superman as a bit of an idiot. The church scene was also a bit cringe-worthy with them trying their best to make Jesus comparisons.

Finally, i feel like MOS was made to be cool in comparison to the corny and boring Superman Returns. And it was also made to setup a sequel, or a shared DC universe where events of the first film would only be payed off in the sequel. The excuse of "oh he only really BECOMES Superman at the end of the film" and "he lets people die, he kills Zod and ruins lives but at least he saved the world! He did all of that but hey, it will pay off in the sequel where he realizes he shouldn't kill and become a better Superman".

Make a SUPERMAN film or don't make it at all. If you're more keen on making a Kal-El/Clark Kent movie for starters...then don't have him be Superman for the entire last half of the movie.

Overall, Clark becoming a journalist or really becoming Superman...it's not really here. It's more like "wait until the next episode!"

 

[DChero]

MOS is way better than Superboy Returns. But the main problems are the acting (it's fine most of the time but Michael Shannon and Amy Adams look like average actors which is a crime). The writing, dialogue. Even though the concept/story itself is very good. The cinematography. And yes the visuals are fantastic but once you get into the final act, you're looking at a video game, it's barely a movie anymore.

I love the first 20 minutes on Krypton but when it gets back to earth, i just feel sorry for the actors. They're trying too hard to make you feel emotional towards certain characters but they make you dislike Pa Kent and you see Superman as a bit of an idiot. The church scene was also a bit cringe-worthy with them trying their best to make Jesus comparisons.

Finally, i feel like MOS was made to be cool in comparison to the corny and boring Superman Returns. And it was also made to setup a sequel, or a shared DC universe where events of the first film would only be payed off in the sequel. The excuse of "oh he only really BECOMES Superman at the end of the film" and "he lets people die, he kills Zod and ruins lives but at least he saved the world! He did all of that but hey, it will pay off in the sequel where he realizes he shouldn't kill and become a better Superman".

Make a SUPERMAN film or don't make it at all. If you're more keen on making a Kal-El/Clark Kent movie for starters...then don't have him be Superman for the entire last half of the movie.

Overall, Clark becoming a journalist or really becoming Superman...it's not really here. It's more like "wait until the next episode!"

I don't agree with those that feel that they need to use excuses such as "he isn't Superman yet." To me, this is story of Superman - he's always Superman. We're going on a journey, so there's no reason to apologize.

I think that most of us agree that there are some rough spots with the dialogue, but the overall story (to me) is fantastic on its own - meaning that it's obviously self-sustaining and isn't just a vehicle to build a universe. The stories that it most notably borrows from to me are Birthright and Earth One. Neither of those go directly into shared universes. Some people just complain for the sake of complaining.

The killing of Zod is the ending that I prefer, as opposed to him being sucked into the Phantom Zone. It shows that Clark loves humanity so much that he would even sacrifice his soul for them. This comes off being a much more powerful finale in my opinion.

 

[I Am The Knight]

He is sad for 30 seconds and then he is happier than ever at the end of the movie. Yeah, it hurt him to kill Zod, but sacrifice his soul? Come on.

 

[DChero]

He is sad for 30 seconds and then he is happier than ever at the end of the movie. Yeah, it hurt him to kill Zod, but sacrifice his soul? Come on.

You're referring to the editing over the story. For all we know that could have been months later. The point is that he didn't want anyone to die, and he especially didn't want to kill anyone.

It's like the madness of Batman. The Joker kills people, Batman catches him and leaves him at Arkham where he can get out and kill again. In my opinion, the point of Batman is to defend the innocent. He knows that the Joker will continue to escape, so why not kill the Joker and save hundreds of lives? Because he doesn't want it on his soul, conscience, whatever.

 

[I Am The Knight]

You're referring to the editing over the story. For all we know that could have been months later. The point is that he didn't want anyone to die, and he especially didn't want to kill anyone.

It's like the madness of Batman. The Joker kills people, Batman catches him and leaves him at Arkham where he can get out and kill again. In my opinion, the point of Batman is to defend the innocent. He knows that the Joker will continue to escape, so why not kill the Joker and save hundreds of lives? Because he doesn't want it on his soul, conscience, whatever.

But the editing affects the story. It hurt Superman to have to kill Zod, but he was fine afterwards. He had to cross a line, but it's never explored beyond a scream. The movie doesn't show anything else to suggest he had to "sacrifice his soul".

 

[BH/HHH]

Maybe it's something that will haunt him subconsciously like it did when he killed Zod and te Zoners in the Superman Comics. It's not like instantly in that he was depressed that came letter after the stress it caused his subconscious.

 

[DChero]

But the editing affects the story. It hurt Superman to have to kill Zod, but he was fine afterwards. He had to cross a line, but it's never explored beyond a scream. The movie doesn't show anything else to suggest he had to "sacrifice his soul".

The editing impacts the presentation of the story. I say that in this instance, the editing doesn't identify how much time has passed between Zod's death and Superman being "kinda hot."

I get what you mean in that you feel that the shorter amount of "movie time" indicates less "story time" elapsing. It doesn't bother me because it didn't strike me as being the next day or anything like that. It's left kind of vague.

I used that "soul" verbiage because of Kal's reactions before and after Zod's death. It obviously hurt him having to take a life because he's genuinely a good person. It's the ends justifying the means.

 

[DChero]

Maybe it's something that will haunt him subconsciously like it did when he killed Zod and te Zoners in the Superman Comics. It's not like instantly in that he was depressed that came letter after the stress it caused his subconscious.

I'm sure that it'll be addressed during Dawn of Justice, but I think that we got the primary reaction and imagery already with Kal screaming and holding onto Lois. I guess for some that wasn't enough.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm sure that it'll be addressed during Dawn of Justice, but I think that we got the primary reaction and imagery already with Kal screaming and holding onto Lois. I guess for some that wasn't enough.

It wasn't for some, was for me and I'm sure it'll be addressed in DOJ aswell. I actually feel now that films are mainly franchises maybe we need to see the whole story before we can judge something like this fairly. Films are very much becoming like TV not just about this one film or episode but the narrative of a series of films.

 

[DChero]

It wasn't for some, was for me and I'm sure it'll be addressed in DOJ aswell. I actually feel now that films are mainly franchises maybe we need to see the whole story before we can judge something like this fairly. Films are very much becoming like TV not just about this one film or episode but the narrative of a series of films.

They definitely are. Things are held back for later, which can pay off and backfire.

In this instance, I can see where those people are coming from, but it feels to me like a stretch, as in they're looking for things to dislike. It's all opinion though.

 

[BH/HHH]

They definitely are. Things are held back for later, which can pay off and backfire.

In this instance, I can see where those people are coming from, but it feels to me like a stretch, as in they're looking for things to dislike. It's all opinion though.

Yeah agree with all that

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

It wasn't for some, was for me and I'm sure it'll be addressed in DOJ aswell.

It was for me as well.

That scene felt like a full stop on Clark's arc, not a question mark setting up a new one.

 

[DChero]

It was for me as well.

That scene felt like a full stop on Clark's arc, not a question mark setting up a new one.

Yep. I can understand how different people interpret things different ways, but the only real gripes that I have with the movie are some of the dialogue choices.

I also haven't heard anyone complain about how fast Clark's mom got to the school when he locked himself in a closet. It's a similar edit to the Zod death cut to the satellite scene.

 

[HighFivingMF]

None of you guys have wished Man of Steel a Happy Second Birthday yet? Shaaaame.

 

[DChero]

None of you guys have wished Man of Steel a Happy Second Birthday yet? Shaaaame.

I'm so stupid...