All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - Part 91

[TheFlamingCoco]

It's the heaviness on the Kryptonian elements that perhaps harmed the film the most though. It worked best when it was just Superman clashing with this grounded universe.

Superman stories aren't really about physical confrontation. Superman saves people. That is his entire description. Batman hunts villains. But occasionally they overlap and Superman has to fight, or Batman has to save someone.

A whole armada of Lexcorp designed military tech armed with Kryptonite irradiated ammunition is all MOS2 needs. But it mainly needs to have Superman trying to make a positive difference in the world and saving lives. And we need lots of fun moments with Clark and the DP crew. And of course the Lex casting is going to be really important.

I'd like a "few" Lex bots "he can complain that they "malfunctioned" if they do anything devious. But I don't want it to be a physical war as much as a psychological one.

I think it would be cool if it was first and foremost, an exploration of Superman and Clark as a character. Show Superman going around the world doing good things, then focus on him as a person in Metropolis.

Then show a "hidden conspiracy." I'd love the police to recruit Superman with footage of a mysterious superbeing, fast, smart, and stealthy, committing seemingly disconnected murders around Metropoli.

I'd also have a high amount of Jimmy-someone who represents affability on earth. I'd also want him to do things key to the plot, like uncover something related to Metallo or Luthor. Something to put him at risk.

I'd like there to be enough breathing room to flesh out the romance.

Basically I want the plot to happen AROUND the characters, rather than happening TO the characters, until the relationships of the people are thoroughly explored.

And yes, I want MOS2 to be a slow-paced movie with KEY action sequences.

Done right, it could have a bit of comedy, a lot of character, an interesting plot, a good romance, a bit of scale (that's where Superman going global comes in) and some intense action sequences (when Metallo DOES attack, I want it to be intense.) I want you to feel like ANYONE could die.

I also want to explore the relationship between Lois/Perry and even Jenny/Perry. As for Lombard, I think he should serve as the "Coleman Reese" of the movie.

So yes, if MOS2 capitalizes on its potential, it could be the BEST superhero movie bu blending fantasy, realism, intrigue, intensity, romance, innocence, humor, darkness, warmth, scale, exotic locations, strong themes, and witty dialog.

In short, it can be PERFECTLY balanced, especially if someone else is the main writer

 

[king666]

KEEP. IT. SIMPLE. Superman's doing his job, someone is trying to do some evil stuff, Supes gotta save everyone. I want a character-driven story.

 

[Vaibow]

How about if Lex is pushing his agenda for a 'justice league' a list exposing alien 'threats' here on earth, Kal El being the main factor.

Lexcorp could be creating hybrid creatures and releasing them onto the public in various states in america and across the globe i guess, at intervals, to highlight the fact they are out there and need addressing - perhaps the internet dude that leaked lois could have a larger part, helping lois investigate these 'alien/super human claims' - this would allow us to see two or three rogue villains - parasite, metallo maybe even 'moon man' in the form of Brice Rodgers.

The film could revolve around a world split between superman being a hero and a menace, with a new era being born.

Every conspiracy ever conceived is now scrutinised, every sighting or para normal activity hyped up - the fear of fear - think of the states after 9/11, some were pro america, some were just scared to be in same room as someone with brown skin.
Rosewell and MM are a perfect combination in my idea, a craft was actually found andhas been down there ever since, being reverse engineered - with MM working/living undercover for a branch of the government as a sub plot.

So, whilst some love space exploration, new tech from krypton, superman appearances, some are fearful, saying he will create larger problems and anything and everything blamed on him.

So new sightings of the bat - a paranormal man bat in gotham, a hybrid human in the seas, a man too quick to be caught by police could have people on alert where as some look at it for inspiration.

Lex masterminding disaster events, false flags, like a parasitic creature emerging from the waste lands terrorising a town - police no good until supes shows up - or even better, lex's own army of justice.*

With a well written story, where the story focuses on a world with a super human being, how the government and lex in particular react - would be a interesting story - throw in a montage of classic superman saves, lex creating two hybrids to further his agenda - for action scenes and a sense of threat, it's nothing which can't be handled appropriately without looking campy. Other heroes are exposed, such as MM and aqua man - The finale could be the daily planet exposing lex, the public fully accepting him and these other 'beings' and the formation of the justice league that will lead into a solo justice league movie

*Would be a good twist on the justice league - where a speech given at the end, where society has been saved, by a real founding member, states that they are indeed the justice league of america and are here to help!

 

[Vaibow]

I'd like a "few" Lex bots "he can complain that they "malfunctioned" if they do anything devious. But I don't want it to be a physical war as much as a psychological one.

I think it would be cool if it was first and foremost, an exploration of Superman and Clark as a character. Show Superman going around the world doing good things, then focus on him as a person in Metropolis.

Then show a "hidden conspiracy." I'd love the police to recruit Superman with footage of a mysterious superbeing, fast, smart, and stealthy, committing seemingly disconnected murders around Metropoli.

I'd also have a high amount of Jimmy-someone who represents affability on earth. I'd also want him to do things key to the plot, like uncover something related to Metallo or Luthor. Something to put him at risk.

I'd like there to be enough breathing room to flesh out the romance.

Basically I want the plot to happen AROUND the characters, rather than happening TO the characters, until the relationships of the people are thoroughly explored.

And yes, I want MOS2 to be a slow-paced movie with KEY action sequences.

Done right, it could have a bit of comedy, a lot of character, an interesting plot, a good romance, a bit of scale (that's where Superman going global comes in) and some intense action sequences (when Metallo DOES attack, I want it to be intense.) I want you to feel like ANYONE could die.

I also want to explore the relationship between Lois/Perry and even Jenny/Perry. As for Lombard, I think he should serve as the "Coleman Reese" of the movie.

So yes, if MOS2 capitalizes on its potential, it could be the BEST superhero movie bu blending fantasy, realism, intrigue, intensity, romance, innocence, humor, darkness, warmth, scale, exotic locations, strong themes, and witty dialog.

In short, it can be PERFECTLY balanced, especially if someone else is the main writer

I'm liking these, i fel like i keep repeating my idea, but i feel it is a good one, story is focused on daily planet and lois and clark primarily - how they work on his disguise and how he blends in. They investigate on mysterious beings appearing - linking it to lexcorp and reverse engineering.
We see a world split in middle on supes, like after 9/11, people were very much pro american, sticking together, but also afraid of what else is out there - the film should use that as a basis, explore space, embrace it, but also fear from people afraid of what may be found.
Lex wants superman labelled, monitored, controlled, his agenda will be helped through false flags of other 'alien attacks/paranormal events'
Lois and clark grown in their relationship, we get a few saves, we got a couple of action scenes from that - a new threat occurs from lexcorp and we also see hints to justice league.

 

[bluearth]

I still keep having the suspicion that if the Donner and Singer films were never released, and Superman's first big screen adventure was Man of Steel it would have been received with much more favor. The critics would have still complained about the action and non-linear story, but I definitely think a 80% RT score would have been possible, if not higher. The idea Superman Returns got 75% RT score for simply imitating the first Donner film and little else really makes me wonder if my suspicion is true.

The flood of Marvel films and their distinct style doesnt help Man of Steel either. They've continued the trend of heavy comedy in comic book movies to help critics with no imagination suspend their belief better and longer.

Another thing I believed hurt Man of Steel...no big time actor in a leading role. Yeah theres big names in this movie, but they're all smaller, side or supporting roles. Replace Henry Cavill with Ryan Gosling and thats an instant 10 point bump on RT. Doesnt matter that Cavill knocked the performance out of the park, critics love A listers. I want to refrain from bashing other movies a bit to make a point, but the 88% RT score of Xmen First Class? Yeah, the critics love Fassbender. They even went waaaay too easy on Prometheus because of him.

Heres the rotten tomatoes summary of Prometheus

Ridley Scott's ambitious quasi-prequel to Alien may not answer all of its big questions, but it's redeemed by its haunting visual grandeur and compelling performances -- particularly Michael Fassbender as a fastidious android.

I still believe Burton's Batman films helped create a bridge to Nolan's Batman movies. If Burton's Batman films never existed, and we jumped straight from the Adam West TV series to the ultra realistic and grounded Batman Begins, Im not so sure the critics and audience in general would have accepted it as well, without the Burton films easing that transition. If we had gotten a more grounded Superman in the early 90s etc, I think this movie would have benefited and been more accepted

 

[tomoe]

Another thing I believed hurt Man of Steel...no big time actor in a leading role. Yeah theres big names in this movie, but they're all smaller, side or supporting roles. Replace Henry Cavill with Ryan Gosling and thats an instant 10 point bump on RT. Doesnt matter that Cavill knocked the performance out of the park, critics love A listers. I want to refrain from bashing other movies a bit to make a point, but the 88% RT score of Xmen First Class? Yeah, the critics love Fassbender. They even went waaaay too easy on Prometheus because of him.

I really disagree with this. Ryan Gosling is all sorts of wrong for Superman, I think it would have been a 10 pt bump down for miscasting. Plenty of A-listers have made critically trashed movies too. Just look at Johnny Depp. Fassbender was great in Xmen First Class, but I don't think he was the only reason that movie scored highly. It really was a pretty good movie overall, IMO

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I still keep having the suspicion that if the Donner and Singer films were never released, and Superman's first big screen adventure was Man of Steel it would have been received with much more favor. The critics would have still complained about the action and non-linear story, but I definitely think a 80% RT score would have been possible, if not higher. The idea Superman Returns got 75% RT score for simply imitating the first Donner film and little else really makes me wonder if my suspicion is true.

The flood of Marvel films and their distinct style doesnt help Man of Steel either. They've continued the trend of heavy comedy in comic book movies to help critics with no imagination suspend their belief better and longer.

Another thing I believed hurt Man of Steel...no big time actor in a leading role. Yeah theres big names in this movie, but they're all smaller, side or supporting roles. Replace Henry Cavill with Ryan Gosling and thats an instant 10 point bump on RT. Doesnt matter that Cavill knocked the performance out of the park, critics love A listers. I want to refrain from bashing other movies a bit to make a point, but the 88% RT score of Xmen First Class? Yeah, the critics love Fassbender. They even went waaaay too easy on Prometheus because of him.

Heres the rotten tomatoes summary of Prometheus


I still believe Burton's Batman films helped create a bridge to Nolan's Batman movies. If Burton's Batman films never existed, and we jumped straight from the Adam West TV series to the ultra realistic and grounded Batman Begins, Im not so sure the critics and audience in general would have accepted it as well, without the Burton films easing that transition. If we had gotten a more grounded Superman in the early 90s etc, I think this movie would have benefited and been more accepted

Exactly. ESPECIALLY the Joel Shumacker films (lower standards, plus the concept of a film reboot was encouraged, especially after Batman and Robin).

Batman Begins (hypothetically with no Burton):

RT: "This mostly well-written account of Batman lacks the color of the classic series, depicting an angst ridden-Wayne battling his internal (and external demons) Even Bale's performance could not overcome the lifeless atmosphere that feels contrary to everything Batman represents.

63 percent fresh

 

[Vaibow]

Ok, so i have had a rethink, using all your ideas and notions, here is a synopsis for a possible follow up to MOS

MOS follow up

Based 6 months after MOS

World coming to terms with Alien disclosure – we are not alone.

Governments set up new space projects, using kryptonian tech as their basis – defense systems are toyed with – huge political debates about what the bigger picture is now.

Superman has appeared in public, at times to rescue civilians, other times to help rebuild the city, under night fall, as in the morning, large areas of rubble removed, frame work appear and bricks lined up good to go – but public still unsure.

Life is moving on.

Plot
Daily Planet - Lois/Clark relationship main story – how they maintain his identity, their relationship – at work, what they report for planet – seeing Clark integrated with society. They see the world from both sides of the superman argument.
Politically,It’s all talk of more super human’s – as past conspiracies and urban legends are fully investigated across the globe – everything is scrutinized or at least, has more weight behind it now. Atlantis, Roswell, Ancient alien theory.
Two incidents occur that make Superman take action – a failed lunar mission and a confrontation against lexcorp after one of lexcorp’s ‘soldiers’ goes rogue (Metallo).

Finally, the equilibrium is restored – Superman is near fully accepted, we have seen how Clark lives in Metropolis, his relationship not only with Lois, but with staff around him (jimmy) the start of Lex’s fall from grace (set up for the third film) – the introduction of other characters to set up a solo justice league.

Sub plot 1
(flash backs through the journal of prof Hamilton given to lois by the conspiricist) Roswell – actually happened, but times were ‘different’ back then and the alien onboard was taken away and believed dead – the craft was reversed engineered and modern tech is from this – some governments fractions are aware of this – but also not knowing one actually survived and escaped – a shape shifter, he is actually alive and well, having worked his way into S.T.A.R labs, under the name of j’onn j’onnz only revealing his identity with Prof Hamilton. The reason for this, to develop earth technology so that he could one day find a way back home and defeat the beast Darkseid that destroyed his race.


Sub plot 2
Lex, hugely political figure is against Superman and is contracted (lexcorp) to set up a defense under the guise of research on ‘super humans/aliens’ – from this we get kryptonite – the fuel source from the world machine is harvested, discovered to have adverse reaction on Kryptonian DNA- new metal created from it - as well as failed hybrid species using Zod’s DNA.

Kryptonite bullets and combat gear created –Lex secretly creates false flags to further his agenda, making false claims through media manipulation that a hybrid beast lives off the coast of America, in the oceans – attacking trawlers, fishermen and marine life. He’s fusing the legend of aqua man and his own hybrid creation to make out his army have caught the beast. It is displayed to the world and prompts the public to take his side.

Lex also sabotages a space mission, live on CNN, to see if the kryptonite laced shuttle will effect Superman – it indeed does – but also for Brice Rogers onboard, turning him into an almost zombie like state after over exposure – a nasty confrontation occurs on the moon, in the craft – all this is recorded on CNN, maybe not all shown due to sensitive footgae, but this is leaked to the public in an act of deception that makes matters worse for Superman.

Finally, with lexcorp producing NSA style patrols, one of the Soldiers, John Corben goes AWOL and causes devastation in Metropolis, looking and beckoning for superman to appear. Lex personally appears to ‘save grace’ it back fires and when Corben takes a child hostage, Superman appears to save the day, making matters worse for Lex and helping the public’s opinion of superman.



End Credits – superman wating on a roof top, a growl of ‘we need to talk’ is heard, Superman turns to see Batman, emerging from the shadows.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Ok, so i have had a rethink, using all your ideas and notions, here is a synopsis for a possible follow up to MOS

MOS follow up

Based 6 months after MOS

World coming to terms with Alien disclosure – we are not alone.

Governments set up new space projects, using kryptonian tech as their basis – defense systems are toyed with – huge political debates about what the bigger picture is now.

Superman has appeared in public, at times to rescue civilians, other times to help rebuild the city, under night fall, as in the morning, large areas of rubble removed, frame work appear and bricks lined up good to go – but public still unsure.

Life is moving on.

Plot
Daily Planet - Lois/Clark relationship main story – how they maintain his identity, their relationship – at work, what they report for planet – seeing Clark integrated with society. They see the world from both sides of the superman argument.
Politically,It’s all talk of more super human’s – as past conspiracies and urban legends are fully investigated across the globe – everything is scrutinized or at least, has more weight behind it now. Atlantis, Roswell, Ancient alien theory.
Two incidents occur that make Superman take action – a failed lunar mission and a confrontation against lexcorp after one of lexcorp’s ‘soldiers’ goes rogue (Metallo).

Finally, the equilibrium is restored – Superman is near fully accepted, we have seen how Clark lives in Metropolis, his relationship not only with Lois, but with staff around him (jimmy) the start of Lex’s fall from grace (set up for the third film) – the introduction of other characters to set up a solo justice league.

Sub plot 1
(flash backs through the journal of prof Hamilton given to lois by the conspiricist) Roswell – actually happened, but times were ‘different’ back then and the alien onboard was taken away and believed dead – the craft was reversed engineered and modern tech is from this – some governments fractions are aware of this – but also not knowing one actually survived and escaped – a shape shifter, he is actually alive and well, having worked his way into S.T.A.R labs, under the name of j’onn j’onnz only revealing his identity with Prof Hamilton. The reason for this, to develop earth technology so that he could one day find a way back home and defeat the beast Darkseid that destroyed his race.


Sub plot 2
Lex, hugely political figure is against Superman and is contracted (lexcorp) to set up a defense under the guise of research on ‘super humans/aliens’ – from this we get kryptonite – the fuel source from the world machine is harvested, discovered to have adverse reaction on Kryptonian DNA- new metal created from it - as well as failed hybrid species using Zod’s DNA.

Kryptonite bullets and combat gear created –Lex secretly creates false flags to further his agenda, making false claims through media manipulation that a hybrid beast lives off the coast of America, in the oceans – attacking trawlers, fishermen and marine life. He’s fusing the legend of aqua man and his own hybrid creation to make out his army have caught the beast. It is displayed to the world and prompts the public to take his side.

Lex also sabotages a space mission, live on CNN, to see if the kryptonite laced shuttle will effect Superman – it indeed does – but also for Brice Rogers onboard, turning him into an almost zombie like state after over exposure – a nasty confrontation occurs on the moon, in the craft – all this is recorded on CNN, maybe not all shown due to sensitive footgae, but this is leaked to the public in an act of deception that makes matters worse for Superman.

Finally, with lexcorp producing NSA style patrols, one of the Soldiers, John Corben goes AWOL and causes devastation in Metropolis, looking and beckoning for superman to appear. Lex personally appears to ‘save grace’ it back fires and when Corben takes a child hostage, Superman appears to save the day, making matters worse for Lex and helping the public’s opinion of superman.



End Credits – superman wating on a roof top, a growl of ‘we need to talk’ is heard, Superman turns to see Batman, emerging from the shadows.

Neat, but seems a bit complicated Of course, that would be a direct response for MOS's reputation for not having enough plot

 

[Loki882]

Make it a thriller about a scheming mastermind (Lex) who is adored by the public and uses his charisma and to rise to power by rebuilding Metropolis. Meanwhile, he creates a group of meta-humans, whom he sends after Superman. These people can be victims of the destruction in the first movie, giving them reason to hate Superman. Lois and Clark investigate Lex, but he uses his resources and cunning to stay two steps ahead of them. The villain (Metallo) weakens Superman just by being around him, creating a serious threat. These threats and plots must be dealt with before Metallo succeeds in killing the man of steel. Throw in some Lois/Clark relationship development, development of the DP staff and more Russell Crowe/Kevin Costner flashbacks and you have the makings of a good, yet very different film.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Make it a thriller about a scheming mastermind (Lex) who is adored by the public and uses his charisma and to rise to power by rebuilding Metropolis. Meanwhile, he creates a group of meta-humans, whom he sends after Superman. These people can be victims of the destruction in the first movie, giving them reason to hate Superman. Lois and Clark investigate Lex, but he uses his resources and cunning to stay two steps ahead of them. The villain (Metallo) weakens Superman just by being around him, creating a serious threat. These threats and plots must be dealt with before Metallo succeeds in killing the man of steel. Throw in some Lois/Clark relationship development, development of the DP staff and more Russell Crowe/Kevin Costner flashbacks and you have the makings of a good, yet very different film.

If MOS was about learning how to be Superman, MOS2 should be about learning how to be Clark Kent as a reporter (and still be an effective Superman). I don't want Superman debating or not whether he should exist, though.

 

[Loki882]

I think that may come up at some point in the sequel, but Clark will be mostly established in Metropolis working for the DP and (maybe) dating Lois.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I'm talking about having to "balance" life and work. Like both Spider-Man 2 and The Incredibles. Both good films that came out in 04

 

[Loki882]

I think that is a good way to go, I think that Snyder/Goyer will probably try something like that, but still keep some action so it doesn't get boring (cough: Superman Returns).

 

[InJustice]

I'm talking about having to "balance" life and work. Like both Spider-Man 2 and The Incredibles. Both good films that came out in 04

Clark: "Sorry Lois, looks like I'm gonna have to pass on the date for tonight."
Lois: "Why?"
Clark: *points to villain out the window* "Because this looks like a job for Superman."

And yes, I love the Fleischer Bros. Cartoons. t:

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Something along those lines. Clark being concerned about being found out and risking Lois, and Lois fearing for Superman's life against bigger forces. It could create great internal conflicts as long as it doesn't seem forced.

 

[Loki882]

You can do that and it could make for excellent character work and drama. However, you would have to be careful not to make Superman too overly-concerned with Lois safety and overprotective. Otherwise, we could get another version of emo-stalker *****ebag man from that other movie. Plus, superheroes constantly worrying and complaining about things gets irritating after a while (SM 3 again).

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

on reddit, there's a post about the building where zod shed his armor. i take it ya'll already got on it right? via reddit, from ianmazgelis.

Spoiler

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ He shouldn't be controlling. He should only be concerned with what his identity would mean for Lois. It shouldn't be something to cause strain against her, just a way to breed an internal fear of screwing up his identity act. On top of the pressures of being Superman.

I'm okay at Superman having MANY internal fears, as long as he's mature to rise above them.

As for Lois, I think her fear for Superman should only cause her to care about him more. Not to be angry or even sad, but knowing that she might never see him again, and to make the relationship count.

 

[Loki882]

Yes, that would be a good way to go. It's too bad that you didn't make SR, it would have been a far better movie.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Well, first things first, I feel like an origin was NEEDED for a reboot. I'd prefer Superman leaving Earth out of guilt or on some mission ON EARTH's behalf, only to find out that he returned to an alternate Earth, and must decide whether to protect or not or defend his "real' Earth.

But yes, SR is what happens when a fan of older movies doesn't read a comic OR consult his comic familiar friends (though the SR mag article implies his screenwriters know about Superman's history, infuriating me more)

SR should have been an Elseworlds movie of some kind. Something funky and different. I think an origin with Smallville on TV would be even MORE unwelcome.

But something that is faithful to the characters of Superman, with many references to the mythos.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^Maybe an All Star Superman or Red Son adaptation?

 

[InJustice]

"But yes, SR is what happens when a fan of older movies doesn't read a comic OR consult his comic familiar friends (though the SR mag article implies his screenwriters know about Superman's history, infuriating me more)"

This is exactly how I feel about movie critics. They claim to love a particular comic book character, but they have no knowledge of its continuities. Thus you end up with the issue of them sticking to someone's interpretation and disregarding anyone else's.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ How DARE Superman not have a ROMANCE or campy humor!

 

[John-An]

on reddit, there's a post about the building where zod shed his armor. I take it ya'll already got on it right? Via reddit, from ianmazgelis.

Spoiler

where did you get this image?