BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion

[smallville fan]

You are living in a deluded fantasy land my friend. If you think all signs point to this having been in the pipeline for a long time you are seriously misguided. Snyder's quote, WB being quiet for weeks after the films release, the box office, the fact the cast and crew were all talking a direct sequel and not a team up film during the press junkets, and yes, the ****ing logo at the presentation. I'm sorry mate, you're flat out wrong, Batman is plan 'B'.

A direct sequel featuring Batman which was the big hidden secret? The logo means nothing. WB probably stayed quiet to save everything for Comic-Con. You are the one living in a delusional fantasy land here going by your own observations which are wrong. Have a good look at what John Lambert said in the previous pages. I also thought that they would go the route of another standalone Superman movie but after hearing the announcement and looking back at interviews and reports with people such as Cavill and Zimmer from as far back as May, it's more apparent that this was the plan. Besides, it just makes more sense considering the massive onslaught coming our way. It's now more apparent that audiences are growing tired of single solo films and want the big team-ups. I'm bringing actual facts to the table, what do you have?

Snyder should read every solid Superman/Batman teamup comic in existence, so that he knows when Goyer's trying to distance himself from the genre. And Goyer should keep himself in check, knowing that MOS could have been better received if he had been a bit more conventional in the narrative structure.

Wasn't there a report of Snyder looking at Public Enemies and other books?

 

[Gianakin_]

jmc is so right it's painful.

 

[BH/HHH]

I certainly don't believe this has been in the pipeline for a while at all. They were clearly expecting MOS to make more than it did (for some stupid reason) and they want that billion dollar hit so the studio has obviously played their hand and said to add Batman to the next one.

 

[jmc]

A direct sequel featuring Batman which was the big hidden secret? The logo means nothing. WB probably stayed quiet to save everything for Comic-Con. You are the one living in a delusional fantasy land here going by your own observations which are wrong. Have a good look at what John Lambert said in the previous pages. I also thought that they would go the route of another standalone Superman movie but after hearing the announcement and looking back at interviews and reports with people such as Cavill and Zimmer from as far back as May, it's more apparent that this was the plan. Besides, it just makes more sense considering the massive onslaught coming our way. It's now more apparent that audiences are growing tired of single solo films and want the big team-ups. I'm bringing actual facts to the table, what do you have?

No, you're bringing a misinterpretation of the 'facts' old mate. Why you can't just admit to yourself this is a recent decision is beyond me. And for the last time - the logo means everything, you can keep sticking your fingers in your ears and scream 'not listening' but it's important.

 

[flickchick85]

I think it would be even LESS colorful, but have more well-rounded characters, that may or may not be faithful to the mythos. But that's assuming he actually sprung off comics.

It's funny, I was watching the HBO First Look on The Wolverine today, and Hugh Jackman was sharing an anecdote about how Singer had banned all comic books from the set of X-Men. Apparently afraid it would lead to 2-dimensional portrayals/performances. So yeah, I don't think he would've gone to the comics.

I never knew that bit of trivia before, but I think it somehow gets to the root of my problems with Bryan Singer's CBM adaptations.

 

[dark_b]

C'mon man, those quote really don't amount to anything. How else would Cavil answer a Batman/Superman question exactly? What's he going to say 'I don't want to do that movie, I think it would be crap'? C'mon, MoS didn't bring in the doe WB wanted, and its sequel was going to be in the most crowded blockbuster year in history, and given the critical panning it got it needs WB's go to guy in Batman to help. At best Batman was plan 'B', there's no doubt in my mind they wanted a direct MoS sequel, not a team up film. I don't for a second believe Batman v Superman has been in any great stage of development at all - until sources say otherwise.

agree

 

[Smallville13]

It's funny, I was watching the HBO First Look on The Wolverine today, and Hugh Jackman was sharing an anecdote about how Singer had banned all comic books from the set of X-Men. Apparently afraid it would lead to 2-dimensional portrayals/performances. So yeah, I don't think he would've gone to the comics.

I never knew that bit of trivia before, but I think it somehow gets to the root of my problems with Bryan Singer's CBM adaptations.

That said there is some merit to this method, as Nolan refused to visually adapt images and scenes from the comics as well. Instead opting to channel the material through his own unsullied perspective. I think it definitely worked for that take on Batman.

Snyder/Goyer are both clearly fans of the comics at heart though. You can tell they loved all the visual and text nods to the source material, and easter egg references they threw in.

 

[NosfeRomas]

Bullcrap ! Yeah TDKT didn't have that many panel to screen represenations but what the hell is the rooftop scene with Dent, Gordon and Bats ? or Bane breaking Batman's back ?

It was comics to scene adaptation. Not like Daredevil were it was actually the same colours and scenery but it was an adaptation nontheless. Batman doesn't have many poses and scenes that can be adapted but still there were a few.

I don't get the "no comics on set" rule. Its absolutely ********, its like when they adapted LOTR they didn't have a scripted form of the books or the books themselves. F-ing Daniel Radcliff was reading Harry Potter on the set of the films and in a medium so visual based as comic book movies its a mistake to ignore the page even as a reference.

I smiled many times during Man of Steel when i noticed the comic book to screen scene. Alex Ross' Superman standing with the cape or the All Star Superman flying pose.

It was subtle and awesome.

 

[smallville fan]

I don't think so. I think they planned to bring in Batman all along. They have too much pointing towards that in MOS.

Anyway, it really is the key to avoiding people saying "it's just another Superman movie". Sure, Superman fans will go and see it, but they need a truly different film to bring in the larger audiences.

Also, if Batman and Superman really are in the same world, Batman not showing up is what would be unrealistic.

Well Snyder, Goyer, Cavil, Zimmer and anyone else who was in on this is not a graphic designer, so the logo not being fully developed tells us nothing.

All that really says is they told the designers just before the announcement. Which is good policy if you want the announcement to come as a surprise. The designers are not the writers and directors, and so this does not say those people were surprised.

And you are buying a not well sourced quote, that may have been totally made up, and if it was not made up, we have no idea to the real context.

Agreed!

I smiled many times during Man of Steel when i noticed the comic book to screen scene. Alex Ross' Superman standing with the cape or the All Star Superman flying pose.

It was subtle and awesome.

Me too!!

 

[SpideyFan866]

I think its pretty undeniable that Batman in MOS2 was always plan B.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Most definitely.

 

[Mysteryman]

At this point,
What difference does it make?

 

[Doctor Jones]

Well it kind of does because the quality of this film hinges on the overall decision and the timing of it.

So if we're here in 2015 and the movie sucks we'll be here discussing what we are discussing now, just with more rage.

 

[Mysteryman]

Well, my gut says it was always plan B but never plan A.

 

[slumcat]

I absolutely agree it was Plan B. They sort of took the decision ONLY after the release of the MOS. I feel almost sure about that.

There was no foreshadowing, no hinting, Cavill and Snyder genuinely did not know during the extensive press for MOS because they were all happily talking about MOS 2.

Even given the structure of MOS itself, it literally just established Superman for a single solitary day long adventure. And BAM we already move into group movies.

In contrast, Marvel fully established the personalities of Iron Man, Captain and Thor before putting them in a group film. Superman is much more undeveloped than these guys were at the end of their first film.

So the decision does seem rushed to me and a plan B and not the original intent of Snyder and the film-makers.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Unrelated, but I feel like if I'm not scared of Batman in this movie, they haven't done their job.

 

[Rorschach2012]

This is pretty rough, but gives an idea of what I want to see

I want the film to start off with Clark trying to adjust to working at the Planet, obviously Lois and Perry are in on his secret and kind of help him to adjust to the new job. I think Jimmy Olsen should be introduced here as well. I think Clark, Jimmy and Lois should be at some event and Clark has to slip away and save the day.

It is later announced that Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne will be rebuilding the city of Metropolis.

We cut to Bruce in the batcave. He's sitting in front of a massive bat computer, wearing his batsuit without the cowl. He's studying Superman, and says to Alfred that Bruce Wayne rebuilding Metropolis gives Batman a way to keep tabs on Superman.

Bruce arrives in Metropolis. Lex and Bruce meet, Lex shows Bruce his plans to rebuild Metropolis, and also shows him something he has discovered and been experimenting with, should Clark ever go rogue...Kryptonite. Bruce is able to get a hold of a small piece for himself.

There should be a scene of Batman spying on Superman, and then Superman can't find Batman.

The following day Bruce meets Clark and Lois at an event that announces the partnership between Lexcorp and Wayne Industries in rebuilding Metropolis. Bruce Wayne knows Clark is Superman, and Lois flirts with Bruce a little bit, making Clark jealous.

That night, Superman discovers Batman is spying once again, and they end up getting into a fight, Batman tells Superman that he's a killer and he destroyed Metropolis, and eventually Bruce gets the upper hand, he pulls out the Kryptonite and utters The Dark Knight Returns line about "remember the one man who beat you...bla bla.."

They eventually stop fighting and are able to somewhat trust each other when they figure out that they both fight for the same thing. Bruce lectures Clark over killing, and Clark explains it was the only option, and Bruce explains that with Clark's power, it's never the only option.

Bruce and Lex meet again, and Bruce starts discovering how jealous of Superman Lex is. And that his plans for the Kryptonite are much worse than he thought. Batman later comes to Lex's facility to investigate, and discovers plans to kill Superman so Lex can once again be Metropolis' favorite son.

We then see Lex meeting with Amanda Waller and a council of highly influential people in the US government. Despite Lex not being a political figure...yet...he has an incredible amount of power over the government. Lex proposes that they make Superman public enemy no 1.

Batman finds Superman to warn him, but they are ambushed by US soldiers. Batman thinks that Superman's connection to General Swanwick won't help, he thinks these orders are coming from higher up. Superman and Batman try to escape peacefully, but Superman has to destroy a tank in order to escape, and Lex records the destruction and plays it all over tv, making Clark out to be a monster. Batman is also on the tape, and he becomes a public enemy as well.

Like the public enemies story, I think Lex should offer to meet Superman, acting like he wants to make a deal. Superman would rebuild Metropolis in return for not being jailed for the destruction he caused. Batman tells Superman it's a trap, and that he won't be there to save him when it goes bad.

Superman meets Lex, and Metallo makes his first appearance, and he beats the **** out of Superman. Batman swoops in just in time to save Clark, and Bruce takes Clark to his makeshift batcave in Metropolis.

Bruce helps Clark get back on his feet, and they both realize that they are in a war against Lex and the government.

Bruce develops a plan to infiltrate Lex's facility, in an effort to get rid of the Kryptonite, but when they arrive, the Kryptonite has been moved. The facility is mostly empty, but they soon discover Metallo, who ambushes them. Clark tells Bruce that he'll take Metallo, and Bruce can find Lex.

Clark and Metallo have an epic battle, Clark is able to defeat Metallo. It's not known if he is alive or dead.

Meanwhile, Bruce finds Lex, and he gets a few punches in. Lex wipes blood from his lip and laughs, he is able to escape Bruce for a few moments and returns with Lex's power suit like in the comics. His suit is a modified version of Zod's suit. He's kicking Bruce's ass, throwing him all over the room when Clark steps in.

Clark and Lex duke it out, and Batman leaves to find evidence against Lex. He runs into Amanda Waller, who has arrived at Lex corp to take and destroy any incriminating files against Lex or the government. She tells Batman she knows who he is and that they can't be stopped. Batman is genuinely intimidated and let's her go, knowing that he's in over his head.

Clark and Lex during this fight have time to discuss their conflicting ideas, and Lex tries to seem like a good person, he feels that this is what he has to do for the safety of Metropolis.

Somehow, Batman is able to distract Lex enough for Clark to beat him.

Also I haven't figured this part out yet, but Batman and Superman's names are clear by the end of the film, and the public has no idea about Lex's villainy.

Superman and Batman shake hands at the end of the movie, solidifying that iconic friendship, and setting us up for JL

The last scene is of Lex and Amanda Waller talking about Lex's run for presidency, and how they will make it happen

 

[slumcat]

I feel that for all this hogwash that David Giyer spoke about earth reacting to an alien being amongst them, that is explored.

Like the US Military or NASA would take Zod's dead body and the fallen Krypton ships and desperately start looking for Superman.

There never would and could be a tension free relationship between humans and an alien on earth when so much effort and science has been expended on looking for alien life and discovering the physics of our existence.

I hope the film addresses that otherwise that means Goyer and Nolan just talk out of their ass and don't actually do any of the grand things they talk about in interviews.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Did they say that Superman was the first super hero on earth in the DCU? Because I do remember them saying he was the first alien being that the public knows about. Perhaps there's nothing to say that Batman didn't exist before Superman.

 

[smallville fan]

This is pretty rough, but gives an idea of what I want to see

I want the film to start off with Clark trying to adjust to working at the Planet, obviously Lois and Perry are in on his secret and kind of help him to adjust to the new job. I think Jimmy Olsen should be introduced here as well. I think Clark, Jimmy and Lois should be at some event and Clark has to slip away and save the day.

It is later announced that Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne will be rebuilding the city of Metropolis.

We cut to Bruce in the batcave. He's sitting in front of a massive bat computer, wearing his batsuit without the cowl. He's studying Superman, and says to Alfred that Bruce Wayne rebuilding Metropolis gives Batman a way to keep tabs on Superman.

Bruce arrives in Metropolis. Lex and Bruce meet, Lex shows Bruce his plans to rebuild Metropolis, and also shows him something he has discovered and been experimenting with, should Clark ever go rogue...Kryptonite. Bruce is able to get a hold of a small piece for himself.

There should be a scene of Batman spying on Superman, and then Superman can't find Batman.

The following day Bruce meets Clark and Lois at an event that announces the partnership between Lexcorp and Wayne Industries in rebuilding Metropolis. Bruce Wayne knows Clark is Superman, and Lois flirts with Bruce a little bit, making Clark jealous.

That night, Superman discovers Batman is spying once again, and they end up getting into a fight, Batman tells Superman that he's a killer and he destroyed Metropolis, and eventually Bruce gets the upper hand, he pulls out the Kryptonite and utters The Dark Knight Returns line about "remember the one man who beat you...bla bla.."

They eventually stop fighting and are able to somewhat trust each other when they figure out that they both fight for the same thing. Bruce lectures Clark over killing, and Clark explains it was the only option, and Bruce explains that with Clark's power, it's never the only option.

Bruce and Lex meet again, and Bruce starts discovering how jealous of Superman Lex is. And that his plans for the Kryptonite are much worse than he thought. Batman later comes to Lex's facility to investigate, and discovers plans to kill Superman so Lex can once again be Metropolis' favorite son.

We then see Lex meeting with Amanda Waller and a council of highly influential people in the US government. Despite Lex not being a political figure...yet...he has an incredible amount of power over the government. Lex proposes that they make Superman public enemy no 1.

Batman finds Superman to warn him, but they are ambushed by US soldiers. Batman thinks that Superman's connection to General Swanwick won't help, he thinks these orders are coming from higher up. Superman and Batman try to escape peacefully, but Superman has to destroy a tank in order to escape, and Lex records the destruction and plays it all over tv, making Clark out to be a monster. Batman is also on the tape, and he becomes a public enemy as well.

Like the public enemies story, I think Lex should offer to meet Superman, acting like he wants to make a deal. Superman would rebuild Metropolis in return for not being jailed for the destruction he caused. Batman tells Superman it's a trap, and that he won't be there to save him when it goes bad.

Superman meets Lex, and Metallo makes his first appearance, and he beats the **** out of Superman. Batman swoops in just in time to save Clark, and Bruce takes Clark to his makeshift batcave in Metropolis.

Bruce helps Clark get back on his feet, and they both realize that they are in a war against Lex and the government.

Bruce develops a plan to infiltrate Lex's facility, in an effort to get rid of the Kryptonite, but when they arrive, the Kryptonite has been moved. The facility is mostly empty, but they soon discover Metallo, who ambushes them. Clark tells Bruce that he'll take Metallo, and Bruce can find Lex.

Clark and Metallo have an epic battle, Clark is able to defeat Metallo. It's not known if he is alive or dead.

Meanwhile, Bruce finds Lex, and he gets a few punches in. Lex wipes blood from his lip and laughs, he is able to escape Bruce for a few moments and returns with Lex's power suit like in the comics. His suit is a modified version of Zod's suit. He's kicking Bruce's ass, throwing him all over the room when Clark steps in.

Clark and Lex duke it out, and Batman leaves to find evidence against Lex. He runs into Amanda Waller, who has arrived at Lex corp to take and destroy any incriminating files against Lex or the government. She tells Batman she knows who he is and that they can't be stopped. Batman is genuinely intimidated and let's her go, knowing that he's in over his head.

Clark and Lex during this fight have time to discuss their conflicting ideas, and Lex tries to seem like a good person, he feels that this is what he has to do for the safety of Metropolis.

Somehow, Batman is able to distract Lex enough for Clark to beat him.

Also I haven't figured this part out yet, but Batman and Superman's names are clear by the end of the film, and the public has no idea about Lex's villainy.

Superman and Batman shake hands at the end of the movie, solidifying that iconic friendship, and setting us up for JL

The last scene is of Lex and Amanda Waller talking about Lex's run for presidency, and how they will make it happen

I actually prefer it if Superman beats Batman at least once, just to shut up the 12 year old BatFans.

 

[Marvin]

This isn't a Spiderman meets the Hulk film. The tradition of the first two mainstream superheroes is a readily made paradigm in lots of media and WB has in FACT been hip the idea for a good while. Considering that I am legend call out and Wolfgang's aborted film, this isn't as out of left field as some may assume. So that begs the question of, at what point in all this Avengers is coming 2015 squalor, and a need for a new batman, did WB consider their Superman 2015 film was going to need to be a crossover novelty event? It must have been during the sad time when the film was beating out each and every ones of these successful reboots/star ups that themselves got typical sequels(though IM2 had plenty of cameos).

If Marvel wasn't setting the business model for success(and post avengers success), I think ya'll might have a point. However, it would be dense to just assume the WB studio hasn't been planning a way into the shared universe way of making these films for the past few years, especially after Avengers and in a summer when they will be directly competing with them. They just needed two things imo.
1. Nolan to stop saying no.
2. A film that wasn't a flop(see GL).

I'm curious, does anyone here think a solo superman film of any sort has a shot at competing with an Avengers sequel and all it's novelty? I ask this as a business question because WB is a business and they're decisions however souless have to be driven by that simple principle. I ask this in relation to anyone who suggests WB wasn't planning a superhero crossover in the year of the second Avengers movie. WB is stupid, but they're not that stupid. All things being equal(hard to suggest on a fan forum). ASM and it's hotly anticipated sequel are what we are considering studio pleasing reboot success on a very high level. ASM2 is going to be a massive success, no doubt the biggest film of 2014's summer. Round of applause.
Does anyone think ASM2 is going to challenge any of Avenger's money? That's what I postulate to anyone that thinks WB was planning on releasing a successful traditional sequel to MOS in the summer of Avengers2.
Just like this summer they would lose out to that shared universe novelty crap in spite of quality. It happened this year, it happened last year, it even happened in the year before that.

Also. anyone that suggests this is a last minute response to MoS' massively successful performance needs to go back and look at just how long WB had JLA slated for 2015. That was always their year for a crossover, and rightly so.

Batman in Superman2, this was plan A.
imo.
The Wayne Tech Satellite just got a whole lot more interesting.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I prefer it if there's not a clear winner.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

This isn't a Spiderman meets the Hulk film. The tradition of the first two mainstream superheroes is a readily made paradigm in lots of media and WB has in FACT been hip the idea for a good while. Considering that I am legend call out and Wolfgang's aborted film, this isn't as out of left field as some may assume. So that begs the question of, at what point in all this Avengers is coming 2015 squalor, and a need for a new batman, did WB consider their Superman 2015 film was going to need to be a crossover novelty event? It must have been during the sad time when the film was beating out each and every ones of these successful reboots/star ups that themselves got typical sequels(though IM2 had plenty of cameos).

If Marvel wasn't setting the business model for success(and post avengers success), I think ya'll might have a point. However, it would be dense to just assume the WB studio hasn't been planning a way into the shared universe way of making these films for the past few years, especially after Avengers and in a summer when they will be directly competing with them. They just needed two things imo.
1. Nolan to stop saying no.
2. A film that wasn't a flop(see GL).

I'm curious, does anyone here think a solo superman film of any sort has a shot at competing with an Avengers sequel and all it's novelty? I ask this as a business question because WB is a business and they're decisions however souless have to be driven by that simple principle. I ask this in relation to anyone who suggests WB wasn't planning a superhero crossover in the year of the second Avengers movie. WB is stupid, but they're not that stupid. All things being equal(hard to suggest on a fan forum). ASM and it's hotly anticipated sequel are what we are considering studio pleasing reboot success on a very high level. ASM2 is going to be a massive success, no doubt the biggest film of 2014's summer. Round of applause.
Does anyone think ASM2 is going to challenge any of Avenger's money? That's what I postulate to anyone that thinks WB was planning on releasing a successful traditional sequel to MOS in the summer of Avengers2.
Just like this summer they would lose out to that shared universe novelty crap in spite of quality. It happened this year, it happened last year, it even happened in the year before that.

Also. anyone that suggests this is a last minute response to MoS' massively successful performance needs to go back and look at just how long WB had JLA slated for 2015. That was always their year for a crossover, and rightly so.

Batman in Superman2, this was plan A.
imo.
The Wayne Tech Satellite just got a whole lot more interesting.

Yeah, there were a few Batman and Luthor easter eggs in MoS. I didn't take the Wayne teases seriously, but now I definitely am. But on a separate yet related note, I don't think this was WB's plan B at all.

 

[dark_b]

At this point,
What difference does it make?

it makes a big difference. its official that hollywood studios now expect Avengers and IM3 money from superhero movies. MOS of course didnt make enough money to be a monster hit. but it still made a lot of money and superman is now back as a badass guy who will punch through buildings.

adding batman to superman means that WB needs more money and they still think that batman is the only guy who can save their profit .

a lot of fans will not understand this because they are secretly batman fans visiting the superman forums. there are a lot of batman fans who also like superman . they are now in the superman forums happy that they will get a new batman movie. we had a f... trilogy. a Nolan trilogy and Superman fans will not get a sequel to MOS with only superman. they will now have to be forced to watch batman.

it makes a big difference

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Let the hate flow through you, dark b. Yessss... gooooooood...